Truth of matter Collins should have been starting the last two years.

[Newera]

Sure you can go on and rip me. I don't care. I believe what I believe.

Had Gibbs stayed, I think Collins would have beat out Jason for the starter. Jason is an okay quarterback. He's average -- and his stats have proven it. To me thus far, he's capable, but has not moved much beyond being a back-up to a sometimes starting quarterback in the NFL -- and that is not what we need. And, I don't think the West Coast Offense suits his strengths.

When you think about it, this season has gone much like last year in some ways. Jason and the offense started to swoon around mid-season last year under Gibbs. Something was missing. We had a terrible loss to Buffalo last year upon the passing of Sean Taylor. We were on the verge of losing to Chicago, when Jason went down and Todd came in and saved the day -- and thus the rest of the season.

I believe Todd was like the highest rated quarterback for the month of December last year -- and offensive player of the month if I'm not mistaken. Okay, there's the argument he was so familiar with the offense after being in it for so many years. Granted that is true.

Regardless, what I noticed was that he took less sacks because he got rid of the ball faster and knew where to go with the ball by throwing to open spots before the receivers made their brake. Jason is not comfortable doing that -- and it's those timing routes that are so hard for defenses to defend. Jason is just a second slow with everything, his reads, slants, pocket presence, drawing offsides, changing cadences, etc.

If you don't believe that quarterbacks make a difference in the number of sacks taken. Answer me this: How can Matt Cassell be like the third or fourth most sacked quarterback behind the same line where Brady was barely ever sacked. Me thinks the quarterback does play a role. Last year we didn't have Jansen or Thomas -- and Collins took less sacks per game because he simply got rid of the ball faster and knew where to go with it.

We averaged a mere 10 points a game for the month of November. That is pathetic. Sorry arse Detroit put up more points then us in November.

I just thank that Jason inadequate play is the subtlety that's pulling the team and the offense down little by little. The offense lacks consistency. Our third down conversion has been terrible the last month. No one wants to blatently come out and blame Jason because I know it's not all his fault. But I do think within the doors of Redskin park, some have to be thinking that Jason's play is a "Big Elephant In the Room" issue -- considering that Collins played so well for the team last year down the stretch. It's a fact, Todd lifted the team. And, it is a team right now that is desperately in need of another lift.

Of course, we will never definitively know unless Collins gets in -- which I doubt. This stuff is not rocket science. Sometimes people have a tendency to overthink things and get caught up on potential, where someone was drafted, physical characteristics, babying ego's, force fitting, and therefore allow themselves to be wrongly swayed. People don't want to admit they made a mistake.

It's polarizing and dangerous and usually results in a lot of bad decisions and fired GM's and coaches. As Bill Parcells say's, you are what your record say's you are. Right now, Jason has not warrented an extension. He has not shown enough consistency and growth to be an elite quarterback -- an okay quarterback, but not an elite quarterback. Is that what we want as fans.

With so many dreadful decisions this organization has made over the years, we have to be right with this decision. Many people on this board felt the same way about Ramsey. Supporters arguing to death for their adoration for Patrick -- and what has Ramsey done in this league since he left -- backed up. Here's the deal: Really good quarterbacks will easily show by year three if they've got the goods to be a "Top Notch Starter" in this league. The real good ones will show in their first year of playing -- certainly by years end.

The other issue is that I think teams have easily figured out how to stop the Redskins offense. Stop Clinton and you stop the offense. Put the onus on Jason to beat you. Thus far he has proven he can't. Sound logic if you ask me. In almost all of our losses I don't think Clinton has gone over 100 yards -- maybe once.

To me, the problem is simple and not complex at all. Jason is not getting it done well enough to take the offense to the next level -- which is playoff level. The fact that Collins played well last year in December does not help matters. He proved in one month to be the better quarterback at commanding an offense -- and over the last two years has probably deserved more of a shot at starting.

We started 6-2 with Jason. I was elated. My rationale was that the offense was winning while still not hitting its stride. My early thought was wait until Jason and the offense start to really hit on all cylinders the second half of the seaon with this offense and it simply has not happened. The offense has actually regressed. That shouldn't be the case. Atlanta is a team that is getting better and better.

You can't change all the players. However, you can change the trigger man to see if it does or does not rest with him. We struggle against Cincy, then I switch. But Zorn probably won't.

However, if Shawn Hill beats us the last game in San Fran, (which is highly probably the way San Fran is playing) to me that will say tons -- wasn't he in our training camp this year as like the fourth quarterback. Geez.

And just think, we are paying people huge salaries for these decisions.

[33]

Shawn Hill started for the 49ers for the end of last season.

[Spitfire71]

1st five games: JC was sacked 8 times.

Game vs. Rams: JC was sacked 4 times.

Last 7 games: JC was sacked 22 times, including an inexcusable 7 against the Steelers.

You can change the trigger man, sure...but you can also change the linemen. Granted, now we don't have a choice with all of the injuries...

[skull1669]

Mr Collins is that you...

[jbowman]

Derek Devine was the 4th QB. And... did you see Collins in preseason?

[skins4eva]

I agree with many of your points. Jason's play has made me consider several things recently. Why was it that Jason couldn't win the starting job from Brunell for so long? In hindsight, it is obvious that Gibbs saw something in Jason's performance/mechanics, etc. that concerned him.

The contrast you provide with Collins's performance is staggering and should not be brushed aside, even though many posters will try to do just that. They will say it was an offense that Collins knew very well. True, but the real difference in Collins's performance and Campbell's is that Collins's has good mechanics and a quick release. Campbell has the worst mechanics (especially when he's under center) I've ever seen and one of the slowest releases I've ever seen. The offense has no rhythm and no urgency or game speed because Campbell's mechanics and release speed are so horrible. An entire slew of respectable coaches have tried to fix Campbell's mechanics. I would love to hear what Al Saunders has to say about it. You could tell that Saunders was never high on Campbell from very early on, but as a good solider he never once said anything publicly. I do, however, remember Saunders saying that he had to work on JC's mechancis, his drop back and his throwing motion. Show me a QB who had a successful NFL career after their mechanics had to be completely reworked at this level.

JC is probably the elephant in the room among the offensive coaches. There is no doubt that a lot will come out about this in the offseason. I have a strong suspicion that we will have a new QB in 2009.

[BigMike619]

because todd collins is so much better in pressure situations then JC.

HELL NO!!

the problem is that Collins did well last season in a system that he knew from being under Al Saunders for years but the man NEVER STARTED!! now you want me to believe that a 37 year old QB is the answer for Washington?

sorry to break it to you but 37 is not what you want to put your franchise on.

[skins4eva]

because todd collins is so much better in pressure situations then JC.

HELL NO!!

the problem is that Collins did well last season in a system that he knew from being under Al Saunders for years but the man NEVER STARTED!! now you want me to believe that a 37 year old QB is the answer for Washington?

sorry to break it to you but 37 is not what you want to put your franchise on.

He's not the answer and neither is JC.

[Ynot]

I agree with you, Ys the sacks has gone up, but teams are better prepared for our offense. Teams that do not blitz, blitz us because they know Campbell is not reading the defense correctly and not making quick decisions. At some point th QB has to make a play.... Until then, team will blitz and blitz. Even when they don't they fake it to disrupt us//

[BigMike619]

He's not the answer and neither is JC.

and neither is your cynicism. As soon as it starts to sprinkle you wanna pack the picnic up and run home.

[BigMike619]

I agree with you, Ys the sacks has gone up, but teams are better prepared for our offense. Teams that do not blitz, blitz us because they know Campbell is not reading the defense correctly and not making quick decisions. At some point th QB has to make a play.... Until then, team will blitz and blitz. Even when they don't they fake it to disrupt us//

unless you are the micro machine commercial guy and a speed reader you dont have the time to read a D when in his position.

[skins4eva]

and neither is your cynicism. As soon as it starts to sprinkle you wanna pack the picnic up and run home.

Whatever. I've seen all I need to see from Campbell to know he's not the answer. He's a fantastic human being, and I wanted him to succeed for that reason alone. But, it's clear to me he is not the answer. He's certainly not a WCO QB, and I'm not sure what type of system he would do well in at this level. I just don't think he has what it takes on this level--no shame in that.

[BuryYourDuke]

1st five games: JC was sacked 8 times.

Game vs. Rams: JC was sacked 4 times.

Last 7 games: JC was sacked 22 times, including an inexcusable 7 against the Steelers.

You can change the trigger man, sure...but you can also change the linemen. Granted, now we don't have a choice with all of the injuries...

Read what the man said. He believes JC is partially responsible for the amount of sacks. And he has at least somewhat of a point.

[JetSkins]

ah Collins, the QB that could have been...

[corrupt3d]

Collins should have started game 1 in 2006, and given JAson more game film on running this offense with the weapons we had, rather than what the Chiefs had.

On top of this, we should have had a competent QB coach to help Jason along the way.

Then, in 2007, Jason should have been allowed to compete for the starting job anytime b/w training camp and the end of the season.

[BigMike619]

Whatever. I've seen all I need to see from Campbell to know he's not the answer. He's a fantastic human being, and I wanted him to succeed for that reason alone. But, it's clear to me he is not the answer. He's certainly not a WCO QB, and I'm not sure what type of system he would do well in at this level. I just don't think he has what it takes on this level--no shame in that.

Good thing you arent in charge.

umm...if he isnt a WCO QB then why did he do so well in Auburn under that exact style of offense?

[tiger187126]

ah Collins, the QB that could have been...

sacked more time than JC

sorry, i know you trailed off and i wanted to finish for you since no offense besides the one he spent over a decade is a good fit for him

[skins4eva]

Good thing you arent in charge.

umm...if he isnt a WCO QB then why did he do so well in Auburn under that exact style of offense?

Because Auburn ain't the NFL BigMike. He didn't have to deal with defenses like the Giants, Balt. or Dallas. He had much more time to make decisions and throws in the pocket. His receivers had much better seperation and Auburn had the best running game in college football that year. Saying a player was good in college and using that as evidence that he must be good in the NFL is absolutely ridiculous. There's no comparison btw the college and the NFL.

[skinsarethebest]

The only part of this thread that rings true to me is the general indictment of the other QBs as sub-par... In other words, if there's any argument to be made that Collins should be the starter, it's only b/c everyone else we have on our roster in that position is that terrible

... and of course, we haven't seen what Colt Brennan would be able to do if he were given a start

[playboy1972]

Didn't we trade two first and a third to move up to get Campbell. That was a brilliant move.:doh: I felt we should have done what Parcells did, bring someone in that knows your system (Pennington) and groom a young guy. This team does things half ass. But that being said, Collins proved last season that a quarterback that does not hang onto the ball and is decisive with his decision making, goes a long way.

[BigMike619]

Because Auburn ain't the NFL BigMike. He didn't have to deal with defenses like the Giants, Balt. or Dallas. He had much more time to make decisions and throws in the pocket. His receivers had much better seperation and Auburn had the best running game in college football that year. Saying a player was good in college and using that as evidence that he must be good in the NFL is absolutely ridiculous. There's no comparison btw the college and the NFL.

but you said he didnt do well under it when its clear that he did.

we beat dallas' D and we beat the Iggles D.

He also didnt have a RB like CP in Auburn.

I love how Campbell is supposed to be some super QB for you when he has no protection at all. Portis said it himself yesterday in his rant. You expect the man to avoid rushers and still be able to fire the ball off.

[BigMike619]

Didn't we trade two first and a third to move up to get Campbell. That was a brilliant move.:doh: I felt we should have done what Parcells did, bring someone in that knows your system (Pennington) and groom a young guy. This team does things half ass. But that being said, Collins proved last season that a quarterback that does not hang onto the ball and is decisive with his decision making, goes a long way.

go root for a different team then. nobody is holding you to this team.

[Ynot]

unless you are the micro machine commercial guy and a speed reader you dont have the time to read a D when in his position.

You read the defense before the snap and know were to throw the ball, As you said you do not have time to get back and read, It must be a pre-read or you jut throw it away and not take the sack....

[BuryYourDuke]

Good thing you arent in charge.

umm...if he isnt a WCO QB then why did he do so well in Auburn under that exact style of offense?

BC a slow release and an inability to read NFL defenses were not a factor in college. He's not an NFL west coast QB. If you think a college west coast system and an NFL one are the same, then it's a good thing YOU aren't in charge too.

[DCMONEY]

Man Collins had a great 5 games. Get over it. The O-line in those 5 games started run blocking down the stretch unlike now. Teams tend to tee off when you can' run the ball. The Skins have been getting out muscled which is discouraging to me.