Time to build the trenches Vinny...

[TheLongshot]

Don't give Vinny credit for Samuels. He was drafted in 1999, before Vinny. Whoever drafted Samuels deserves some credit. Whoever failed to draft any first or second round linemen since 1999 deserves to be fired.

Why? Until after the 2006 season, we really didn't have a need to draft a linemen in the first two rounds. That area is mostly the land of Tackles, which we had two pretty good ones in Samuels and Jansen. Good guards can be found in the 3rd and 4th rounds.

Last year was the first time we really should have considered drafting a O-Lineman high, due to Dock leaving. Unfortunately, we traded away too many picks in 2006, which hurt us. We were fortunate to find Heyer, who is a good candidate to replace Jansen, but we really could have used a replacement for Dock that year, instead of spending a 4th round pick on Kendall.

[jthor99]

I expect this organization to HOPEFULLY use the same type of route they used in this years draft. Stay true to their board and trade down for more picks if possible.

If theirs a guy in our slot who we covet and is rated on our board then we should follow it. If not, trade out and aquire more picks. I for one, believe in Vinny's draft evaluations what I question is his eye for FA aquisitions and them fitting in with the team.

With that being said I'm hopeful Vinny will use the same method he used in this years draft.

[OU_skins]

They need to replace their entire offensive line in the next few seasons...The D-line does have some young guys who have shown that they can atleast play somewhat decent. The offensive line is soooo old. If you think these guys suck this year, just wait until they're one year older, one year slower, and one year more prone to injuries. Time to go build up in the draft and go after some solid free agent o-linemen. These guys have not been able to compete against the good defenses that we have played this year.

[jivelikenice]

Yes we did win in the trenches below, but it begins with a qb. JC is nowhere near the qb that Rypien, Theisman, or Williams were.

[J-Rad]

Co-sign for me as well. This seems obvious to me every draft (and every frustrating season). And it's not like we don't have the experience to back it up - Gibbs won in the 80s by dominating the lines. Why and when have we forgotten this?

[D'Pablo]

Don't give Vinny credit for Samuels. He was drafted in 1999, before Vinny. Whoever drafted Samuels deserves some credit. Whoever failed to draft any first or second round linemen since 1999 deserves to be fired.

Vinny was most certainly here when Samuels was drafted, which was 2000, and orchestrated our trade up to get him. 1999 was the Bailey/Jansen draft. I remember this because Schottenheimer fired him the very next season after Turner fizzled out. I suppose Schottenheimer, Cerrato, and Gibbs all share somewhat in the blame.

During the Gibbs era, however, Cerrato was the one presenting scouting reports, which, considering his inclinations, were likely overly negative or never presented at all. I feel as though at least once a year I declare that Vinny Cerrato is a cancer to this team and that we should only invest in lineman in the draft. These things go unheeded and we have won two playoff games in the last 10 years.

[D'Pablo]

Why? Until after the 2006 season, we really didn't have a need to draft a linemen in the first two rounds. That area is mostly the land of Tackles, which we had two pretty good ones in Samuels and Jansen. Good guards can be found in the 3rd and 4th rounds.

Last year was the first time we really should have considered drafting a O-Lineman high, due to Dock leaving. Unfortunately, we traded away too many picks in 2006, which hurt us. We were fortunate to find Heyer, who is a good candidate to replace Jansen, but we really could have used a replacement for Dock that year, instead of spending a 4th round pick on Kendall.

One shouldn't approach the draft worried about what positions need to be filled. Linemen, especially, shouldn't be drafted based on need. They are the handful of players that make contact on every play, thus they will deteriorate, if not get injured, as the season wears. Imagine how differently our 2005 season may have ended if we had a player that could adequately replace Thomas sitting on the bench. Imagine the same scenario when Samuels went down two seasons earlier and Jansen the season before. When Mathias Kiwanuka and Justin Tuck were drafted by the Giants, they already had Strahan and Umenyiora starting for them. Right now, their decision to draft lineman is looking pretty prescient.

[RalphZero]

The team's salary cap is maxed out. In order to strengthen one position, they will need to weaken another.

[Chief skin]

I was whinning about this back in April This SHOULD HAVE BEEN ADDRESSED IN THE APRIL DRAFT but noooooo!!! Vinny knows best. So here we are cant pass block cant rush the passer cant COMPETE with good teams

[rougeskins]

AMEN,We are an OLD,VERY OLD TEAM in these two areas!

[Chief skin]

NFL games are won and lost in the pit, if you cant control it you lose period

[mcarey032]

Thanks for this thread. It is sure better than the bench campbell threads that I have been seeing on here.

[NavyDave]

Yes we did win in the trenches below, but it begins with a qb. JC is nowhere near the qb that Rypien, Theisman, or Williams were.

Rypien, Theisman and Williams all have the HOGS to thank for their Superbowl rings.

[skins82]

It's been time for 5 years. If we had allocated a couple of high draft picks to quality OL/DL each year, we'd have a replenished stable of studs ready to take jobs away from the aging vets. Instead, we haven't drafted a 1st or 2nd round OL or DL in nearly a decade!!! Meanwhile we've thrown away draft picks in every desperation move imaginable from Duckett to J. Taylor to Lloyd etc... The result is that both lines get dominated, and now we have to start rebuilding both on the fly, in a year where we have no 2nd or 4th round picks. This is a horrible, horrible front office coming home to roost.

The worst news is that our division rivals are brilliant at placing draft emphasis on the lines, and are destroying us as a result.

Best qoute of the day my friend. Im happy someone realize's that we will never win a SB without a good O and D line.

[skins82]

I agree! We need to build the O-Line. We already have plenty of receivers and our secondary looks deep enough with the addition of DeAngelo Hall. H.B. Blades looks to be a good replacement for Washington. However, the D-Line needs a big DE for run support because almost all of the young DEs we have are only good for passing downs. However I think Montgomery will be a great run stopping DT but I just hope he improves his work ethic because that was one of his weaknesses.

No offense dude but no one we have on the team is good on passing downs. Thats the problem.

[G-Prime]

I don't think we need d-tackles. I like Anthony M, Kedric G, and Cornelius Griffin. We need pass rushers. I like Andre Carter but he doesn't seem like he's fast enough. Jason Taylor has been the bust that we feared he would be.

The O-line needs a complete makeover. Sit Jansen and start Heyer, I think he's a real find for the O-Line.

You apparently forgot a few weeks ago when Heyer played, he got slapped around like a little *****.. I say blow the entire thing up and lets get younger and more athletic.

[skins82]

Yes we did win in the trenches below, but it begins with a qb. JC is nowhere near the qb that Rypien, Theisman, or Williams were.

No....it begins with the O-line. Look at last years SB. Brady was on his back and they lost. The Giants never blitz. They used the drafted front 4 and beat the NE O-line. Are you really going to sit here and tell me it begins with a QB? You need to look at that Seahawks commercial with the kids on the O-Line and Matt H getting sacked. Thats us every year.

[G-Prime]

Yes we did win in the trenches below, but it begins with a qb. JC is nowhere near the qb that Rypien, Theisman, or Williams were.

It does not begin with the QB.. Anyone who's played football for any length of time passed Pee Wee, will say the same thing.. It starts up front. idiot. go push your bull**** agenda some where else.

[kobra860]

No offense dude but no one we have on the team is good on passing downs. Thats the problem.

Good point.

[TheLongshot]

One shouldn't approach the draft worried about what positions need to be filled. Linemen' date=' especially, shouldn't be drafted based on need. They are the handful of players that make contact on every play, thus they will deteriorate, if not get injured, as the season wears. Imagine how differently our 2005 season may have ended if we had a player that could adequately replace Thomas sitting on the bench. Imagine the same scenario when Samuels went down two seasons earlier and Jansen the season before. When Mathias Kiwanuka and Justin Tuck were drafted by the Giants, they already had Strahan and Umenyiora starting for them. Right now, their decision to draft lineman is looking pretty prescient.[/quote']

As a basic rule, I generally agree with you, but with all the positions that needed to be filled with high draft picks on this team, the O-Line was very low on the need list for a long time. With the way they played and the contracts that they had, no one was going to be moving from their starting positions for a while.

You bring up Kiwanuka. To get him on the field, they had to move him to OLB and only started playing DE again when forced by injury. OL don't offer that kind of flexibility. Unless you are planning on replacing one of your starters in the very near future, it is a waste to draft an OL high because you can't rotate guys in to get them experience. Also, with your backups there is a tradeoff between having an experienced backup and a young developmental guy. There's a pretty good reason why Reinhardt has been inactive for most of this season.

[DRSmith]

i have no problem with our DLine we have plenty of depth and no telling how good Jackson and Buzzbee will be

Our Oline espicially center looks horrible this draft needs to be O line and LBs and if we have the chance return guys who are groomerable to be contributing in a year or so to the o or d

[D'Pablo]

As a basic rule, I generally agree with you, but with all the positions that needed to be filled with high draft picks on this team, the O-Line was very low on the need list for a long time. With the way they played and the contracts that they had, no one was going to be moving from their starting positions for a while.

You bring up Kiwanuka. To get him on the field, they had to move him to OLB and only started playing DE again when forced by injury. OL don't offer that kind of flexibility. Unless you are planning on replacing one of your starters in the very near future, it is a waste to draft an OL high because you can't rotate guys in to get them experience. Also, with your backups there is a tradeoff between having an experienced backup and a young developmental guy. There's a pretty good reason why Reinhardt has been inactive for most of this season.

I can't agree with this reasoning, because it advocates against the idea of building QUALITY depth on the O-Line. It can never hurt things to have a high round pick on the bench considering they don't cost as much relative to skill position players. Competition in practice, even if not representative of gameday, can only breed a better offensive line. If Rinehart were developed enough, he would be playing. One can't expect that of a third round pick. Given our current sad state, if we had drafted a more polished player, he might be playing right now.

A reasonable person would have undoubtably foreseen an aging O-Line would result in injuries and declining play. Moreover, the average length of an NFL career is about 3 and a half seasons (per NFL.com). When Samuels (drafted at the age of 23) reached 27 (2004 season), we should have considered drafting another lineman high in the draft. The same applies to Jansen, who has been in noticeable decline since 2004. Dockery left after 06' and we replaced him with a much older player. Thomas was already 27 when we acquired him (2003). The same goes for Rabach (2005). Given this information, we should have, at the very least, drafted an o-lineman somewhere on the first day between 2004 and 2007, but we didn't. Considering the absolute necessity of a quality O-line, there's really no excuse for Cerrato.