SkinsOrlando Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 With Rick Adelman reaching a wins milestone I was wondering what fellow ES'rs thoughts are on the greatest NBA coaches. Here's my list. 1. Red Auerbach 2. Phil Jackson - this one pains me beacuse of the talent he has had to work with 3. Pat Riley 4. Gregg Popovich 5. Larry Brown 6. Rudy T 7. Don Nelson 8. Chuck Daly Yours, thoughts?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillUnknown Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 i find it funny when people hold having great players against Phil Jackson, as if Red Auerbach didn't have some the best to ever play the game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan2k Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 i love how people ***** about Phil Jackson. Red had a league with what 12 teams stacked NBA. Phil Jackson won Title and took teams that needed that extra punch. How many personalities was Phil able to handle? Rodman, Shaq and Kobe, Jordan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsOrlando Posted March 30, 2008 Author Share Posted March 30, 2008 Ok you disagree with my assertion of Phil Jackson, ok. What about your lists of greatest head coaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillUnknown Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 the list is pretty accurate, i would put Phil #1 but its really personal preference at that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RammsteinSkins Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 Its either Jackson/Auerbach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DButz65 Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 Eddie Jordan Someone had to say it :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rincewind Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 I'd probably put Lenny Wilkens up there, too. I would also probably move Larry Brown up just because the guy was such a great coach, but lacked any loyalty. If he had ever stayed in one place he may have been the best ever - still the only coach to win in the NCAA and the NBA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMike619 Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 Phil is a master at getting in people's heads and making them champs. Chicago was just MJ before Phil. LA was just Kobe. He took both of those teams and put them over the hump. And he brought in winners and great players like Scottie, Shaq, etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSteve Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 Phil is a master at getting in people's heads and making them champs.Chicago was just MJ before Phil. LA was just Kobe. He took both of those teams and put them over the hump. And he brought in winners and great players like Scottie, Shaq, etc... Um, LA was Shaq before Phil came in the first time. Kobe was a developing star. And Scottie was already on the Bulls when Phil took over when Doug Collins was fired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathartic-j Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 Phil is a master at getting in people's heads and making them champs.Chicago was just MJ before Phil. LA was just Kobe. He took both of those teams and put them over the hump. And he brought in winners and great players like Scottie, Shaq, etc... Not to be too anal, but LA was Kobe and Shaq. That is, quite literally, a very very big difference. Both players arrived in LA before the 96-97 season; Jackson's debut was the 99-00 season. Likewise, Pippen was a rookie in 87-88; Jackson was hired before the 89-90 season. I think Jackson definitely needs to be at the top of the list (first or second), but he shouldn't get any credit for those acquisitions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathartic-j Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 Um, LA was Shaq before Phil came in the first time. Kobe was a developing star. And Scottie was already on the Bulls when Phil took over when Doug Collins was fired. Darnit! You beat me! But I get style points for including a fat Shaq joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMike619 Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 Not to be too anal, but LA was Kobe and Shaq. That is, quite literally, a very very big difference. Both players arrived in LA before the 96-97 season; Jackson's debut was the 99-00 season.Likewise, Pippen was a rookie in 87-88; Jackson was hired before the 89-90 season. I think Jackson definitely needs to be at the top of the list (first or second), but he shouldn't get any credit for those acquisitions. he brought those players to what they are when they won I meant. Kobe was just a player who would run into the paint, stop and then try to jump. Shaq was just a power dunker. Scottie wasnt **** before Phil got there. Phil molded him into the player he became. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMike619 Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 Um, LA was Shaq before Phil came in the first time. Kobe was a developing star. And Scottie was already on the Bulls when Phil took over when Doug Collins was fired. Shaq was a power dunker who used to run to the key and post up. after phil and tex brought in the triangle O he became more fluid and incorporated more into his game. Kobe was a rising star and Phil developed that HS kid into what he is today. You guys hating on Phil is amazing. 9 rings and a good shot at another one this year. must be celtic fans. :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillUnknown Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 he brought those players to what they are when they won I meant. Kobe was just a player who would run into the paint, stop and then try to jump. Shaq was just a power dunker. Scottie wasnt **** before Phil got there. Phil molded him into the player he became. Scottie was only in the league for a year or two before Phil got there, not fair to judge him based on his first two years. similar argument can me made for Kobe, especially since he made the leap from high school Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMike619 Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 Scottie was only in the league for a year or two before Phil got there, not fair to judge him based on his first two years.similar argument can me made for Kobe, especially since he made the leap from high school OK well lets compare what other coaches have done in the same situation. MN with KG, Seattle with Kemp. Nobody makes players into champs like Phil. When in the hell did I become a Phil endorser? :doh: My Laker friends would be laughing at me right now.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathartic-j Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 Scottie was only in the league for a year or two before Phil got there, not fair to judge him based on his first two years.similar argument can me made for Kobe, especially since he made the leap from high school Furthermore, Pippen averaged about 14 points, 6 rebounds, and 4 assists in the season before Jackson's arrival, which is pretty solid for a second-year player from a small school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathartic-j Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 OK well lets compare what other coaches have done in the same situation. MN with KG, Seattle with Kemp.Nobody makes players into champs like Phil. When in the hell did I become a Phil endorser? :doh: My Laker friends would be laughing at me right now.. Wait, so if Boston wins the title this year, does this mean that Doc Rivers has "made" KG into a champ!? Don't get me wrong . . . again, I think Jackson is definitely one of the best, but I just think you might be giving him a little too much credit for his stars' play. I think one of the strongest testaments to his abilities is the fact that he was able to make guys like John Paxson, Toni Kukoc, and Rick Fox into valuable contributors; he's simply a master at giving players the roles they need to succeed together. In my (uninformed) opinion, that's one of the most important things a basketball coach can do, and it's hard to overstate his ability to do so. But think his "star" players would produce just as much without him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMike619 Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 Wait, so if Boston wins the title this year, does this mean that Doc Rivers has "made" KG into a champ!?Don't get me wrong . . . again, I think Jackson is definitely one of the best, but I just think you might be giving him a little too much credit for his stars' play. I think one of the strongest testaments to his abilities is the fact that he was able to make guys like John Paxson, Toni Kukoc, and Rick Fox into valuable contributors; he's simply a master at giving players the roles they need to succeed together. In my (uninformed) opinion, that's one of the most important things a basketball coach can do, and it's hard to overstate his ability to do so. But think his "star" players would produce just as much without him. I think it will say that Doc Rivers took a bunch of stars and made them a team which is just as important. His "star" player of all "star" players MJ wasnt doing a damn thing before Phil got there. Once Phil got there and Tex brought in the triangle O it was all over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathartic-j Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 I think it will say that Doc Rivers took a bunch of stars and made them a team which is just as important. His "star" player of all "star" players MJ wasnt doing a damn thing before Phil got there. Once Phil got there and Tex brought in the triangle O it was all over. Woah, that's quite a claim! Here's what Jordan had accomplished in his four full pre-Jackson seasons (he missed almost all of his second year with a broken foot): 1 MVP 3 All-NBA 1st Team selections; 1 All-NBA 2nd Team selection 1 Defensive Player of the Year awards 2 NBA All-Defensive 1st Team selections 4 All-Star selections 3 scoring titles (including 37 ppg in 86-87) 1 "stealing" title (more than 3 steals per game) That's definitely a "damn thing" (or several) in my book. As for the team, they made it to the Eastern Conference Finals in the year before Jackson was hired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSteve Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 Shaq was a power dunker who used to run to the key and post up. after phil and tex brought in the triangle O he became more fluid and incorporated more into his game. Kobe was a rising star and Phil developed that HS kid into what he is today.You guys hating on Phil is amazing. 9 rings and a good shot at another one this year. must be celtic fans. :doh: Shaq carried a weak Orlando team to the NBA Finals. Shaq carried the Lakers in the West. The reason he couldn't win titles is because they kept getting OWNED in the 90's by a Utah Jazz team that coicidentally was Western Conference Champion for the 98 and 99 NBA Finals. Also the Spurs were their achilees heel when they didn't get knocked off by the Jazz. You could argue, that Phil Jackson or not, the Lakers might have come into their own and won several titles anyway considering Utah got old really quick and a few of those years Tim Duncan got hurt when the Lakers were three peating. Also, Kobe was an all star before Phil Jackson came to L.A. and was generally considered to be Jordan's hier. Now even saying all that I'm not saying Phil isn't one of the best of all time. Hell, Red had arguably the most talented teams of all time in a league that wasn't as saturated with talent as some claim it to be. Also those Celtics teams had to play less games and go through less playoff rounds to claim the title. Phil Jackson to me would be the best of all time because he can motivate stars and get teams to buy into that team concept like few I've ever seen, but he is a horrible developer of talent. Most of the drafts he has been highly influential in have produced some of the most one dimensional players ever. (See, Brian Cook, Slava Medvendenko, numerous role players on the Bulls who were just catch and shoot guys for the triangle) Also, the triangle isn't even Phil's X and O genius. Its his assistant Tex Winter. Now maybe Tex isn't the motivator Phil is, but the offensive system is his genius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMike619 Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 OK, you 2 talk. The time for ganging up on me is over. have a good one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathartic-j Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 OK, you 2 talk. The time for ganging up on me is over.have a good one. Hey, sorry if I was too agressive...I just thought you were giving Phil a little too much credit, and I guess other folks agreed. Anyway, I didn't mean to offend or anything, so I apologize again if I was too aggressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EersSkins05 Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 OK, you 2 talk. The time for ganging up on me is over.have a good one. What the hell? You can't come in here and throw around ridiculous assertions like "LA was only Kobe before Phil" and "Jordan hadn't done a damn thing without Jackson" and then when people call you out on it with well-thought-out responses with statistical backing, you just claim that people are ganging up on you. They refuted your incorrect statements. That's all. Phil Jackson is a great, great coach. No one disputes that. Even those you claim are "ganging up on you" are admitting as much. But you can't deny that his timing was more impressive than the X's and O's. Coaching 2 of the greatest players of all time, who also had top 20 all-time teammates, and getting there JUST as those teams were ready to win (it was universally accepted that Jordan was about to steal the mantle from the Pistons/Celtics/Lakers, and Shaq's arrival with the Lakers was supposed to set off the slew of titles that eventually came), was remarkable timing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EersSkins05 Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 Oh, I forgot my list. 1. Red Auerbach- Amazingly, he was a better general manager than a coach. 2. Phil Jackson 3. Larry Brown 4. Gregg Popovich 5. Jerry Sloan- No title, but he's been more consistent than just about anyone. 6. Don Nelson 7. Pat Riley (can't put him further up this list b/c he killed the NBA with those horrible-to-watch Knicks teams and then stabbed Van Gundy in the back) 8. Chuck Daly I'd probably put Lenny Wilkens up there, too. I would also probably move Larry Brown up just because the guy was such a great coach, but lacked any loyalty. If he had ever stayed in one place he may have been the best ever - still the only coach to win in the NCAA and the NBA. I agree with you on Larry Brown, but disagree on Lenny Wilkens. One title and the record for wins doesn't get you on the list when you consider that he also holds the record for losses. If you're looking at single title winners, I'd go with Dr. Jack Ramsey before Lenny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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