Bush Administration taking foreign policy lessons from Senator Obama

[Midnight Judges]

Last year, Barack Obama rightfully said he would bomb Al Qaeda in Pakistan if Musharraf/Pakistani Government refused to do, effectively giving our attackers sanctuary. To my surprise, one by one, the Republicans of extremeskins stood in line to argue how stupid this policy would be, how this would start a war with Pakistan, how we have can't go after the very organization that attacked us.

Here we are, 8 Months later and the Bush administration is implementing Senator Obama's policy. Not one peep out of the Republican media or the Republican hacks here on ES. So tell me fellas, what is your opinion of this policy now that a Republican is using it?

Here is the thread I am referring to although this debate spilled over to several other threads at the time:

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204998&page=1&pp=15&highlight=obama+pakistan

And here is the Bush administration implementing Senator Obama's policy our resident ES Republicans referred to as "stupid," ":doh:," "dumb," "he [Obama] doesn't know how things work in the world," "foreign policy ignorance," etc.:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/27/AR2008032700007.html?hpid=topnews

[SkinsHokieFan]

My bad. I was about to post this article too, without the commentary

I'll throw in my 2 cents later today

Edit: Later today is now

MJ what you seem to fail to realzie is I have criticized the President on this as well. It is stupid, it short sighted and is not the best way to deal with the PPP

As expected, Musharraf's power has waned, significantly. My guess is he will be out of office this year, with the judges being re-instated on the Pakistan SC

Essentially blowing these guys to smithereens in Pakistan accomplishes very little. Why? Because not only do you piss off a bunch of ignorant pahtans in Waziristan and on the border, this stuff leaks out and people in Karachi get pissed. People in Lahore, Rawalpindi, Islamabad, Balochistan get pissed off.

It is the very delicate balance that people in Washington don't seem to understand

1) The Pushtons are very ignorant people. Quite ignorant. These guys have never been educated at all. They are so uneducated to the point of having no aspirations. The second you stepped into kindergarden you had more education then them

So what does this mean? They have no clue the global game they are a part of. None whatsoever. They become servants in Pakistan, drivers, and join the army. Some actually make it out and become productive members of Pakistani/Afghan/Western society. But for the vast supermajority, the world is very tribal.

So you start launching random missles into them, it makes them pretty damn angry. It makes it pretty damn hard to get them to cooperate with you

2) The Pakistani's see the war on terror as their own, but hate America for interfering in it

In talking with some people there, the repeated conversation was "there was never any suicide bombings in Pakistan, never this kind of violence until America came here" The blame for the Red Mosque incident, the fall of Swat is not on the terrorists and taliban but squarely on our shoulders. Which makes it difficult for an ally like Musharaff to stay in power, a guy who has lost thousands of soldiers fighting our enemies for us

So they see a virtual civil war occuring, and they see violence spiking and they are smart enough to realize that this wasn't happening before the Americans were launching missles and before America forced Pakistan into the American version of the GWOT.

What they do know is the mullahs are violent and dangerous and that Pakistan is becoming more secular everyday. Think Iran in the 1970s, where you have a rich elite who speak english, drink vodka, dress western, and then the ignorant religious class. The people at the top who have flourished over the past decade know how dangerous a mullahacracy is, which is why they do not want America provoking these people by launching missles at them

What has happened in retalation? Suicide bombings in Lahore, in Islamabad and Karachi. Random shootings and killings in Karachi

This to a country that has made significant significant progress in the past decade, economically and socially with GDP doubling since 1993 and with more women watching Sex and the City DVDs rather then doing their 5 prayers daily

So again, I think this is a dumb stupid idea to be launching missles into a soverign nation who has lost thousands fighting our war. Obama, Bush, McCain would be very wise to state a policy opposing this and to stop blowing the border up

[APBT]

There is no oil in Pakistan. We should go after the nukes.

[Mad Mike]

Well DUH! I have a news flash for you, many of the things Obama said he would do in his latest foreign policy speech are already being done right now. But Obama states the obvious and he's a genius.

The fact is that the predator attacks that we have been doing are probably WITH the un-publicised permission of Pakistan.

Obama said he would do it with or without permission. Judging by the lack of outrage, Bush apparently gained the quiet permission of Pakistan which means.... drum roll please.... that Bush is working with our allies and Obama was advocating going it alone. :laugh:

[kubstix]

Last year, Barack Obama rightfully said he would bomb Al Qaeda in Pakistan if Musharraf/Pakistani Government refused to do, effectively giving our attackers sanctuary. To my surprise, one by one, the Republicans of extremeskins stood in line to argue how stupid this policy would be, how this would start a war with Pakistan, how we have can't go after the very organization that attacked us.

Here we are, 8 Months later and the Bush administration is implementing Senator Obama's policy. Not one peep out of the Republican media or the Republican hacks here on ES. So tell me fellas, what is your opinion of this policy now that a Republican is using it?

Here is the thread I am referring to although this debate spilled over to several other threads at the time:

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204998&page=1&pp=15&highlight=obama+pakistan

And here is the Bush administration implementing Senator Obama's policy our resident ES Republicans referred to as "stupid," ":doh:," "dumb," "he [Obama] doesn't know how things work in the world," "foreign policy ignorance," etc.:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/27/AR2008032700007.html?hpid=topnews

I've never heard the republicans stating this was a bad move? If Al Queda is forming in Pakistan it makes no sense for any republican OR democrat to shut down the idea of bombing them. I doubt Pakistan would care either. And if they did care.........the US isn't going to give two craps about it either. The last thing Pakistan would want is war with the US.

[SkinsHokieFan]

Well DUH! I have a news flash for you, many of the things Obama said he would do in his latest foreign policy speech are already being done right now. But Obama states the obvious and he's a genius.

The fact is that the predator attacks that we have been doing are probably WITH the un-publicised permission of Pakistan.

Obama said he would do it with or without permission. Judging by the lack of outrage, Bush apparently gained the quiet permission of Pakistan which means.... drum roll please.... that Bush is working with our allies and Obama was advocating going it alone. :laugh:

The wink wink nod nod permission is there, but this is a major reason as to why we are about to lose Musharaff as an ally

Musharaff knows that part of why he has been able to get 10 billion dollars from the US for military ops is because he allows predator strikes. But these strikes cause more harm then good, and in the bigger battle of winning over the majority of Pakistani's back to our side, this looks very bad. Especially when after a predator strike occurs, 4 days later in Lahore a suicide bombing kills 40 people

[Midnight Judges]

Hokie, just want to say that although you are one of my main adversaries in this debate, I don't consider you to be a hack. You have a unique perspective on this that we all respect.

[SkinsHokieFan]

You are trying to deal with and rationalize with people like this

My bet, at least half of them are Pushton

[SkinsHokieFan]

Hokie, just want to say that although you are one of my main adversaries in this debate, I don't consider you to be a hack. You have a unique perspective on this that we all respect.

Appreciate that. And this is one where I have no trouble criticizing the current policy, because it helped haten the political defeat of one of our bigger allies

Right now I am not sure what to think of how the PPP or PML-N will respond. But knowing the people that they draw into their party, it'll be a tougher sledding

[Midnight Judges]

Well DUH! I have a news flash for you, many of the things Obama said he would do in his latest foreign policy speech are already being done right now. But Obama states the obvious and he's a genius.

The fact is that the predator attacks that we have been doing are probably WITH the un-publicised permission of Pakistan.

Obama said he would do it with or without permission. Judging by the lack of outrage, Bush apparently gained the quiet permission of Pakistan which means.... drum roll please.... that Bush is working with our allies and Obama was advocating going it alone. :laugh:

Wrong on several levels. For one, if you read what Obama said, he would use diplomatic means first and resort to bombing only if Pakistan absolutely refused. Pakistan is in a position where it seems they have to at least refuse publically.

Secondly, per an article a few weeks ago, we are not asking Musharraf's permission, we're merely giving him the heads up minutes in advance.

So let me ask you: Do you or do you not agree with Senator Obama that we should go after Al Qaeda in Pakistan if Pakistan will/can not?

[Mad Mike]

Wrong on several levels. For one, if you read what Obama said, he would use diplomatic means first and resort to bombing only if Pakistan absolutely refused. Pakistan is in a position where it seems they have to at least refuse publically.

Secondly, per an article a few weeks ago, we are not asking Musharraf's permission, we're merely giving him the heads up minutes in advance.

So let me ask you: Do you or do you not agree with Senator Obama that we should go after Al Qaeda in Pakistan if Pakistan will/can not?

Again. You are acting as if this is some brilliant insight from Obama. What makes you think Bush was not already doing this when Obama made his speech?

Is it a good Idea? I don't know. It's a complicated issue in a dangerous region. If you want a nasty war with a lot of casualties and possible nuclear implications, this is it.

Obama talks like he has all the answers but he sounds naive to me. :2cents:

[Mad Mike]

The wink wink nod nod permission is there, but this is a major reason as to why we are about to lose Musharaff as an ally

Musharaff knows that part of why he has been able to get 10 billion dollars from the US for military ops is because he allows predator strikes. But these strikes cause more harm then good, and in the bigger battle of winning over the majority of Pakistani's back to our side, this looks very bad. Especially when after a predator strike occurs, 4 days later in Lahore a suicide bombing kills 40 people

I agree. It's a complicated and dangerous situation. We have to do something but what? It's a knife edge we are balancing in. My only point was the irony that Bush is the one trying to use diplomacy while Obama sounds like the one who is reckless.

Always appreciate your insight into the region BTW.

[Midnight Judges]

I agree. It's a complicated and dangerous situation. We have to do something but what? It's a knife edge we are balancing in. My only point was the irony that Bush is the one trying to use diplomacy while Obama sounds like the one who is reckless.

What Obama recommended and what Bush is doing are identicle. You might want to read up on this before you comment further. Who knows, you might even find something that bolsters your argument.

[SkinsHokieFan]

I agree. It's a complicated and dangerous situation. We have to do something but what? It's a knife edge we are balancing in. My only point was the irony that Bush is the one trying to use diplomacy while Obama sounds like the one who is reckless.

Always appreciate your insight into the region BTW.

Anytime. And I am glad you recognize that it is very complex and very dangerous

After being there in December, I am convinced now more then ever the worst enemy to face is an ignorant enemy.

At least the Soviets were educated and understood what was happening, even if they backed an evil ideology. These guys on the border region have no clue whatsover the pawns they are in this global game. Which is why blasting them from predators is in my opinion a poor course of action to take

[jpyaks3]

Anytime. And I am glad you recognize that it is very complex and very dangerous

After being there in December, I am convinced now more then ever the worst enemy to face is an ignorant enemy.

At least the Soviets were educated and understood what was happening, even if they backed an evil ideology. These guys on the border region have no clue whatsover the pawns they are in this global game. Which is why blasting them from predators is in my opinion a poor course of action to take

In your opinion what would be the right action to take?

[SkinsHokieFan]

In your opinion what would be the right action to take?

I honestly do not have a clue what the "right" solution is.

This is not something that can be solved in one year, one presidential administration

You need to actually educate these people. The pushtons, who are at the center of this whole thing on both sides of the border have never recieved any education

The British educated the rest of India and now Pakistan because they could build schools and missions. The Pushtons were in the cold rough mountains, so the Brits never bothered

What you have is quite possibly the most ignorant people on the face of the earth. You blow them up, they think with the lowest level of human instinct, which is revenge, and 10 years from now we are killing 10 times as many of them

So honestly, we gotta figure out a way to educate the folks on the border and in Afghanistan. Then we can talk about a possible solution. But this is at least a generation away

[JimmyConway]

So honestly, we gotta figure out a way to educate the folks on the border and in Afghanistan. Then we can talk about a possible solution. But this is at least a generation away

IMO the key is to see what happens after Gillani's party talks with local Taliban leaders and gives a "political voice to the millions who live in Pakistan's tribal areas."

I feel like educating the folks on the border is easier said than done. It could take more than A generation.