QB Development: Campbell vs. Ramsey

[shhrz]

When Ramsey started out here in DC, he was a very descent QB with ALOT of potential. He had some great games here. But he was not protected by offensive line and he was sacked regularly. I guess all those sacks had a very bad affect on him and mentally he never recovered. Seeing Jason struggle with lack of protection this season, specially yesterday, kind of reminds me of Ramsey. It seems like he's headed down the same road. I hope i'm wrong on this.

[909997]

campbell made some plays awile throwing off his backfoot. Ramsey isnt mobile as campbell also campbell seems to be a monster on 3rd and longs, Campbells only weakness is the redzone, but hey the redskins struggled in the redzone the last 10 years so its not just him its the whole team.

[surfgoon21]

I know his protection sucks, but the chronic fumbling, INT's at terrible times is starting to get me thinking. The Ramsey comparison isn't all wrong.

[909997]

did u see ramsey play this year against lions? he sucked

where campbell light it up

[33]

Campbells only weakness is the redzone, but hey the redskins struggled in the redzone the last 10 years so its not just him its the whole team.

Troy Aikman has repeatedly said that winning in the 4th quarter is something an NFL QB learns. He said it takes the longest, but you can't expect it from the start.

JC is still a pup in terms of playing time.

[estrella117]

You can't compare the 2. For one they are two different style qbs, 2. The oline protection is different and 3. Ramsey sucks Campbell is a up incoming star!

[campbell101]

You can't compare the 2. For one they are two different style qbs, 2. The oline protection is different and 3. Ramsey sucks Campbell is a up incoming star!

Campbell is as much an upcoming star as was:

Joe Harrington

David Carr

Jake Plummer

Ryan Leaf

Michael Vick

All were high draft picks. All were SUPPOSE to be great someday. Guess what?

SOMEDAY NEVER CAME. Where is your evidence that he is a star?

[akorn22]

before we all go crowning campbell in this comparison, let's not forget that ramsey never had talent like Moss, Randle El, Lloyd, McCardell

Ramsey had coles and no one else worth remembering.

[scruffylookin]

I know people feel the need to bash Ramsey now but I'm sorry, Ramsey was just as good (if not better) in his 3 seasons here as Jason Campbell. I just don't see how anyone can watch the two and say one has shown anything over the other. If anything, Ramsey showed alot more given the lack of talent he had around him.

Again, this is not a shot at Jason. I still think he is in that "growing pains" stage of his career. I just find it funny how some people still feel the need to pump up Jason by bashing Ramsey.

[Buck812]

before we all go crowning campbell in this comparison, let's not forget that ramsey never had talent like Moss, Randle El, Lloyd, McCardell

Ramsey had coles and no one else worth remembering.

Bit of a stretch to call Moss, Randle El, Lloyd and McCardell talent. lol.....This WR corp is why our redzone is so bad. They just cant get it done. When we play teams who can take Cooley out in the Redzone which is most of the time, we are screwed because they know thats all the have to do.

[bobzmuda]

My favorite calls when the Skins were on or about the 20 were the playaction passes. It seems like a good idea to run playaction when the run game isn't working, you run a pass route with 1 WR and 1 TE, your OL isn't pass blocking worth crap, and you have your young QB turn his back to the defense so he doesn't get a good luck at the defense in that compressed area where he needs to make quick decisions.

[stwasm]

I also think that Campbell is hurt by his coaching staff and its inability to give him a "real" offense with which to work, where he can be successful.

[shhrz]

I also think that Campbell is hurt by his coaching staff and its inability to give him a "real" offense with which to work, where he can be successful.

I dont think the problem is the offense. Maybe the playcalling, and DEFINITELY the offensive line.

[theTruthTeller]

Ramsey and David Carr are typical of QBs that take a lot of sacks and hits early in their career. They try to suck it up and deal with it, but game by game it affects their decision making process to the point where they start making bad decisions because they just assume something is about to go wrong.

I don't think that JC is there yet, but it won't take long. The Oline needs to be fixed.

[SnyderMustGo]

campbell seems to be a monster on 3rd and longs

Erm, what exactly do you mean by "monster"?

We throw around these meaningless words (e.g., "monster" or "beast) on this board that typically vastly (and embarassingly so) over-estimate and over-value certain players.

So I ask you: did you mean that he is really great on 3rd and longs? Or did you mean that he is atrocious? From the context, you seem to be saying the former, but my eyes and the stats suggest the latter.

So, please explain what you meant. Hopefully you weren't expecting to just throw that out there unchallenged.

[#21Taylor4Ever]

I wouldnt dare compare the two. Ramsey had NO speed, NO ability to get away from danger, and was very easily shaken. JC has poise, pocket presence, a big arm, and is a lot better a prospect than Ramsey.

[DGreenistheBest]

Erm, what exactly do you mean by "monster"?

We throw around these meaningless words (e.g., "monster" or "beast) on this board that typically vastly (and embarassingly so) over-estimate and over-value certain players.

So I ask you: did you mean that he is really great on 3rd and longs? Or did you mean that he is atrocious? From the context, you seem to be saying the former, but my eyes and the stats suggest the latter.

So, please explain what you meant. Hopefully you weren't expecting to just throw that out there unchallenged.

JC's passer rating is over 100 on 3rd downs as opposed to the mid 70's on other downs. Maybe that's what he meant.

Also, picks are on the QB most of the time, but QB fumbles behind the line of scrimmage are ALWAYS on the o-line. Better o-line means no more fumbles from Campbell.

[ibrahim]

Campbell is as much an upcoming star as was:

Joe Harrington

David Carr

Jake Plummer

Ryan Leaf

Michael Vick

All were high draft picks. All were SUPPOSE to be great someday. Guess what?

SOMEDAY NEVER CAME. Where is your evidence that he is a star?

Men! How negative could you be?

[jwsleep]

The book is still out on JC, no doubt, but the verdict is in on Ramsey--he's a mediocre backup in the NFL at best. He's had chances on several teams after the skins, and still hasn't caught on. Maybe he will one day, and maybe in the grand scheme of things, that's not his fault. But there it is.

As for JC, IMO he's got better overall skills, he's better on the move, and he makes better decisions in general (obviously, he's not where we want him to be in this department, but the no-huddle--where he's at his best--is a promising sign). Ramsey had happy-feet--he was not settled in the pocket. And he used his strong arm to compensate for his lack of reads. JC's INTs seem, instead, to come from not seeing extra players in zones. This is not like PR, who would force throws into tight spaces or just throw to the other team outright. So I think that JC's issue is learning NFL Ds, while Ramsey has some deeper issues. Plus, I don't think PR was all that great in college--his plus was his javelin-throwing arm strength. JC, on the other hand, led Auburn to a national title. And I think that matters for a QB.

Finally, the press I've read and the "neutral" broadcasters all seem to say that JC has the tools, while MANY in the outside press were dubious of PR from the get-go. That may not be worth much, but it gives me hope that JC is on the upside, while it seems clear that PR has peaked. But only time will tell.

PS Whatever the point of this debate is, we have MUCH more pressing needs than QB, IMO. JC will get a few more seasons to show he's got what it takes, most likely.

[SnyderMustGo]

JC's passer rating is over 100 on 3rd downs as opposed to the mid 70's on other downs. Maybe that's what he meant.

Well, that's bull**** and wrong. So hopefully that isn't what he meant.

You people just make up crap to defend your positions as if it wasn't difficult to look this up.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/7201/situational

On 3rd downs, his passer rating is a whopping 80.1--nowhere close to being "over 100" that you just made up. And that percentage is lucky that they don't include fumbles, because that is when most of his fumbles (7) have occurred.

His completion percentage on 3rd down is 55.5% which is BAD, not good. 60% is considered the lowest acceptable rate. JC is below averge.

He averages a whopping 6.1 ypa on 3rd down, which pretty much makes it clear that he isn't a "monster on 3rd and long" (unless long means "6 yards+").

On 3rd down, he has 3 Ints, 7 fumbles, and 11 sacks (which is a turnover on 3rd down) and he is only completing the passes he actually throws a pathetic 55.5% of the time.

I'm not sure how that makes him a "monster" on third down. Again, this is one of those unsupported fan-generated Fictions that we make up to BS our with.

[corrupt3d]

Troy Aikman has repeatedly said that winning in the 4th quarter is something an NFL QB learns. He said it takes the longest, but you can't expect it from the start.

JC is still a pup in terms of playing time.

yep, Aikman had this analogy, that all young QB's throw INTs early in drives, and as they progress, they kinda "push" the INTs into the redzone, where after more learning, INT's caused by bad passes are gone.

[ttr77]

I'm not sure how that makes him a "monster" on third down. Again, this is one of those unsupported fan-generated Fictions that we make up to BS our with.

SnyderMustGo - you are a 'beast'

[JRAB]

yep, Aikman had this analogy, that all young QB's throw INTs early in drives, and as they progress, they kinda "push" the INTs into the redzone, where after more learning, INT's caused by bad passes are gone.

I never heard Aikman say that. I've watched all our games too. When did he say that?

I did hear him say that QB's earn their money late in games, when all the chips are down... but I didn't hear him say what you did.

[corrupt3d]

I never heard Aikman say that. I've watched all our games too. When did he say that?

I did hear him say that QB's earn their money late in games, when all the chips are down... but I didn't hear him say what you did.

it wasn't about Campbell, he said this a few years back - I think it was when Carson Palmer was a rookie

[Larry Gude]

When Ramsey started out here in DC, he was a very descent QB with ALOT of potential. He had some great games here. But he was not protected by offensive line and he was sacked regularly. I guess all those sacks had a very bad affect on him and mentally he never recovered. Seeing Jason struggle with lack of protection this season, specially yesterday, kind of reminds me of Ramsey. It seems like he's headed down the same road. I hope i'm wrong on this.

You are wrong, I think, so, don't worry.

Ramsey was/is a pocket qb and he took a ton of brutal hits right up the middle and from his blindside.

Jason is doing a pretty good job of trying to be a pocket qb, as is the proper goal, but he is much more mobile than PR. A lot of his sacks are him getting dragged down or pushed as he is running away. That doesn't mean he isn't taking big shots; he is, but it's not as brutal. So far.

The guy is out their trying to make plays, not get rid of it. When you see him start to get rid of it too early, on a regular basis, then you can worry.

Ramsey was not given a fair shot by Gibbs to work with a max protect system, in my opinion, certainly not the chances Brunell was given and I'll always think the team got shortchanged in '05.

In any event, water over the damn. I think JC is in great shape right now. He's paying dues and he's competing. Criticism of his turnovers are fair; it is what it is. The thing I like is there is a sense of trying to win when he is back there v. an awful sense of trying to not make mistakes when Mark was starting. The end result is no different, wins and losses right now, but damn, same of the plays that kid makes are worth the ones he doesn't.

And Mark was never gonna get better. Jason sure looks like he is.