What's Behind Asia's Moon Race?

[Thanos]

It's not about creating the next technology; It's more about having the engineering infrastructure to support a national engineering goal like going to Mars. We had it in the 1960's. We don't have it today, because we've exported it.

The technology or the infrastructure.

Meet some Air Force space contractors and some of the things they told me were outright scary in relation to US positioning in the space marketplace.

[Thanos]

It's not about creating the next technology; It's more about having the engineering infrastructure to support a national engineering goal like going to Mars. We had it in the 1960's. We don't have it today, because we've exported it.

The technology or the infrastructure.

Meet some Air Force space contractors and some of the things they told me were outright scary in relation to US positioning in the space marketplace.

[JMS]

We had the engineers in the 60's because we had people that were interested in things like going to Mars. There were people that were interested in going to school and studying to do things. I work in a Chemistry Dept. There are still good jobs for people in Chem. (espeically Biochem.) in this country that are good students and get practical research experience as undergrads. Many of the good students I see and that work in the lab are from different countries, I will write them good letters of reccomendation, they will get good jobs here, and live comfortably. They don't get paid less then their American counter parts, and in fact they are more difficult for the shool and the place the employees them because you have to do all the paper work for the visas. It isn't unusual for big Universities and companies to have several people on staff that are there to help w/ visa and immigration paper work for students, especially graduate students in the sciences. I'm sure they'd love to get rid of these staff postion and hire all American workers if it was really practical.

Outside of achedemia, foreign engineers are more attractive than American engineers for American companies.

#1 you don't have to pay them as much because you own them due to the fact that their immigration status is tied to their position and the fact you negotiated their salary in India or China not in the US.

#2 Because foreign engineers are not on the free market and are not free to change jobs for a period of six years, and then only if you sponsor them for a green card.

This is why in an industry which creates 100,000 jobs a year, we can absorb 300,000 H1B visa holders and the visa's run out the first month they are offered. It's because it's profitable to replace domestic engineers with H1B engineers.

As for chemists. Frankly there aren't nearly as many chemist jobs outside of research as there are engineers. As I said before; America still is very compeditive in research. Private industry supports research and so does the government.

[JMS]

We had the engineers in the 60's because we had people that were interested in things like going to Mars. There were people that were interested in going to school and studying to do things. I work in a Chemistry Dept. There are still good jobs for people in Chem. (espeically Biochem.) in this country that are good students and get practical research experience as undergrads. Many of the good students I see and that work in the lab are from different countries, I will write them good letters of reccomendation, they will get good jobs here, and live comfortably. They don't get paid less then their American counter parts, and in fact they are more difficult for the shool and the place the employees them because you have to do all the paper work for the visas. It isn't unusual for big Universities and companies to have several people on staff that are there to help w/ visa and immigration paper work for students, especially graduate students in the sciences. I'm sure they'd love to get rid of these staff postion and hire all American workers if it was really practical.

Outside of achedemia, foreign engineers are more attractive than American engineers for American companies.

#1 you don't have to pay them as much because you own them due to the fact that their immigration status is tied to their position and the fact you negotiated their salary in India or China not in the US.

#2 Because foreign engineers are not on the free market and are not free to change jobs for a period of six years, and then only if you sponsor them for a green card.

This is why in an industry which creates 100,000 jobs a year, we can absorb 300,000 H1B visa holders and the visa's run out the first month they are offered. It's because it's profitable to replace domestic engineers with H1B engineers.

As for chemists. Frankly there aren't nearly as many chemist jobs outside of research as there are engineers. As I said before; America still is very compeditive in research. Private industry supports research and so does the government.

[JMS]

Their QC and industrial advantage alone was partly because of technology. Beyond that, they didn't invent the car, but in many respects in terms of innovation they were a head of us for many years (and probably still are).

http://blogs.automotive.com/6219217/concept-cars/japanese-cars-that-showed-innovation-design-and-wackiness/index.html

The same is true in other fields. They made products better, but not just because of better work ethic or more careful workers or whatever, but also because they introduced better/different technology.

Well Deming was an American. His innovative ideas came from America. I don't disagree with you that Japan is great at refining ideas and profecting technology, but that's not the same as pioneering technology. This isn't due to inteligence; rather it's due to how their system is designed. In Japan government officals decide on which technolgy they are going to support. In America those decisions are made by the marketplace. In Japan they put their research dollars into industries they know will yeild them money, which means proven established technology someone else already pioneered. In America the crack pot inventor, busines and comercial planning still play a larger role than central planning.

We've talked about this before JMS. The jobs are gone, and they aren't coming back unless the dollar falls a lot more AND China actually cracks down on slave labor. It is cheaper to do things in other countries, and unless the cost differential shrinks that isn't changing.

That is true. But what you are missing is it's cheaper to do everything in those countries. From your industry, to my industry, to computers, to engineering. Literally there is nothing the US does better based on price point alone when matched against a billion people with an average yearly income of 100$.

That isn't a new phenomina, it's only recently became justification for exporting very important industries foreign governments have targeted as being the keys to future economic and technological advancement. Where will it end?

I think you have the horse and the cart mixed up in terms of engineers. First, can you give me an actual example of where somebody on a visa makes less then a comparable American counter part?

I can literally give you hundreds of first hand examples. Once upon a time Silicon valley was the #1 computer software market. Boston and route 1 was #2. Washington DC was #3.

Today Washington is the #1 computer marketplace in this country based solely on clearance work. The private software market is essencially gone in this country, and it's happenned in the last 7 years.

I know several on such visas in the biotech field, and they don't make less than their American counter part, and at least for some visas, there is a minimium that they can make, which sets the salaries of the American workers (e.g. to bring a grad student into the country you have to pay them X amount, which is set by the US goverment- many Univerisities set their graduate student salaries then at X, and they pay Americans and the people there on visas the same amount), in addition, the company has to pay for the paper work, which is more difficult now then ever. The number of engineers decreased so more engineers had to come from somewhere.

So you don't know any Engineers, which is what I'm talking about.

In the 1980's when we imported 20,000 H1B's engineering wages were higher and we graduated more engineers. In the 21st century we import 10 times as many H1B engineers, salaries are lower, and we graduate a fraction of the students from our universities in computer science and engineering. that's not a coincidence.

It's a simple fact that if you pay less for something you won't get as much for of it. Pay less for corn, farmers don't have incentive to plant corn. Pay less for engineers; there are fewer kids going into engineering.

It is also better for us to have them here working for US companies then over there working cheaply for Chinese and Indian companies.

Not it's not, because when they leave here they take the job with them.

Again, the problem isn't the enigneers the problem is the cost differential/standard of living. You aren't suggesting we would be better off w/ the avg. standard of living as China or India.

I'm suggesting that during the 1990's the computer industry in this country created more millionairs than any other industry. It also created more profitable companies than any other industry. They renamed the age from the space age to the computer age based on how profitable and important the computer was. The computer industry didn't suddenly become less profitable and less able to support domestic engineers who were the best in the world at their jobs. No, it just occured to the business folk that they could increase profits by hiring vastly cheaper folks to do the work. That's the entire reason why China and India have a computer industry today, cause they're cheaper. That's all well and good, we don't have to subsidize this process by bringing those foreign engineers here on H1B visa's thus making it even easier for the companies to export the industries. That's my point.

When Americans want to step in and do the jobs, they will be there, but industry can't pay people to do the same job 10X as much and stay in business.

The jobs will be there. in India and China. Graduates of our best universities are traveling to India to seek programming jobs because the United States doesn't do software anylonger. As for paying 10x as much, didn't seem to hurt the industry in the 1980's and 1990's when it was the biggest growth industry in the world.

It's not about salaries harming the industry. It's about profits.

We've discussed this before. If in 1968, Ford had said, look at Japan they have a pretty skilled, good, and cheap work force, we are going to start moving our production over there, they could have paid the Japanese workers more, essentially driven the Japanese companies out of business (for this reason the Japanese goverment probably would have not allowed them to do so). Long term this would have been better for Ford, and for the US.

A better analogy. If in 1924 Ford had decided to build the model T in China or Japan America might have missed the entire latter half of the industrial age. We might still be an agrarian society. Ford might be just as rich, but their is no chance Ford would be an American company today; or have played as significant a role in America's tax structure. That's all well and good; Ford has every right to seek his profits. I just think it would have been really exceptionally stupid and short sighted for America's government to subsidize Ford's evacuation of the United States in favor of bigger profits in China. That's what our government does today.

[JMS]

Their QC and industrial advantage alone was partly because of technology. Beyond that, they didn't invent the car, but in many respects in terms of innovation they were a head of us for many years (and probably still are).

http://blogs.automotive.com/6219217/concept-cars/japanese-cars-that-showed-innovation-design-and-wackiness/index.html

The same is true in other fields. They made products better, but not just because of better work ethic or more careful workers or whatever, but also because they introduced better/different technology.

Well Deming was an American. His innovative ideas came from America. I don't disagree with you that Japan is great at refining ideas and profecting technology, but that's not the same as pioneering technology. This isn't due to inteligence; rather it's due to how their system is designed. In Japan government officals decide on which technolgy they are going to support. In America those decisions are made by the marketplace. In Japan they put their research dollars into industries they know will yeild them money, which means proven established technology someone else already pioneered. In America the crack pot inventor, busines and comercial planning still play a larger role than central planning.

We've talked about this before JMS. The jobs are gone, and they aren't coming back unless the dollar falls a lot more AND China actually cracks down on slave labor. It is cheaper to do things in other countries, and unless the cost differential shrinks that isn't changing.

That is true. But what you are missing is it's cheaper to do everything in those countries. From your industry, to my industry, to computers, to engineering. Literally there is nothing the US does better based on price point alone when matched against a billion people with an average yearly income of 100$.

That isn't a new phenomina, it's only recently became justification for exporting very important industries foreign governments have targeted as being the keys to future economic and technological advancement. Where will it end?

I think you have the horse and the cart mixed up in terms of engineers. First, can you give me an actual example of where somebody on a visa makes less then a comparable American counter part?

I can literally give you hundreds of first hand examples. Once upon a time Silicon valley was the #1 computer software market. Boston and route 1 was #2. Washington DC was #3.

Today Washington is the #1 computer marketplace in this country based solely on clearance work. The private software market is essencially gone in this country, and it's happenned in the last 7 years.

I know several on such visas in the biotech field, and they don't make less than their American counter part, and at least for some visas, there is a minimium that they can make, which sets the salaries of the American workers (e.g. to bring a grad student into the country you have to pay them X amount, which is set by the US goverment- many Univerisities set their graduate student salaries then at X, and they pay Americans and the people there on visas the same amount), in addition, the company has to pay for the paper work, which is more difficult now then ever. The number of engineers decreased so more engineers had to come from somewhere.

So you don't know any Engineers, which is what I'm talking about.

In the 1980's when we imported 20,000 H1B's engineering wages were higher and we graduated more engineers. In the 21st century we import 10 times as many H1B engineers, salaries are lower, and we graduate a fraction of the students from our universities in computer science and engineering. that's not a coincidence.

It's a simple fact that if you pay less for something you won't get as much for of it. Pay less for corn, farmers don't have incentive to plant corn. Pay less for engineers; there are fewer kids going into engineering.

It is also better for us to have them here working for US companies then over there working cheaply for Chinese and Indian companies.

Not it's not, because when they leave here they take the job with them.

Again, the problem isn't the enigneers the problem is the cost differential/standard of living. You aren't suggesting we would be better off w/ the avg. standard of living as China or India.

I'm suggesting that during the 1990's the computer industry in this country created more millionairs than any other industry. It also created more profitable companies than any other industry. They renamed the age from the space age to the computer age based on how profitable and important the computer was. The computer industry didn't suddenly become less profitable and less able to support domestic engineers who were the best in the world at their jobs. No, it just occured to the business folk that they could increase profits by hiring vastly cheaper folks to do the work. That's the entire reason why China and India have a computer industry today, cause they're cheaper. That's all well and good, we don't have to subsidize this process by bringing those foreign engineers here on H1B visa's thus making it even easier for the companies to export the industries. That's my point.

When Americans want to step in and do the jobs, they will be there, but industry can't pay people to do the same job 10X as much and stay in business.

The jobs will be there. in India and China. Graduates of our best universities are traveling to India to seek programming jobs because the United States doesn't do software anylonger. As for paying 10x as much, didn't seem to hurt the industry in the 1980's and 1990's when it was the biggest growth industry in the world.

It's not about salaries harming the industry. It's about profits.

We've discussed this before. If in 1968, Ford had said, look at Japan they have a pretty skilled, good, and cheap work force, we are going to start moving our production over there, they could have paid the Japanese workers more, essentially driven the Japanese companies out of business (for this reason the Japanese goverment probably would have not allowed them to do so). Long term this would have been better for Ford, and for the US.

A better analogy. If in 1924 Ford had decided to build the model T in China or Japan America might have missed the entire latter half of the industrial age. We might still be an agrarian society. Ford might be just as rich, but their is no chance Ford would be an American company today; or have played as significant a role in America's tax structure. That's all well and good; Ford has every right to seek his profits. I just think it would have been really exceptionally stupid and short sighted for America's government to subsidize Ford's evacuation of the United States in favor of bigger profits in China. That's what our government does today.

[PeterMP]

That is true. But what you are missing is it's cheaper to do everything in those countries. From your industry, to my industry, to computers, to engineering. Literally there is nothing the US does better based on price point alone when matched against a billion people with an average yearly income of 100$.

That isn't a new phenomina, it's only recently became justification for exporting very important industries foreign governments have targeted as being the keys to future economic and technological advancement. Where will it end?

This has been happening for decades now. It happened to the textile industry way back when. I would guess it most closely tied to the point in time where international travel became reliable enough to transport goods long distances w/ information it is that much faster because it is even easier to transport information today. It isn't something new, and the computer/electronic industry isn't the first time it has happened.

I can literally give you hundreds of first hand examples. Once upon a time Silicon valley was the #1 computer software market. Boston and route 1 was #2. Washington DC was #3.

Today Washington is the #1 computer marketplace in this country based solely on clearance work. The private software market is essencially gone in this country, and it's happenned in the last 7 years.

This doesn't make any sense. If we were importing all of this cheap labor those places would still be on top. You seem to be saying those jobs have gone over seas. I agree, but it was unavoidable.

In the 1980's when we imported 20,000 H1B's engineering wages were higher and we graduated more engineers. In the 21st century we import 10 times as many H1B engineers, salaries are lower, and we graduate a fraction of the students from our universities in computer science and engineering. that's not a coincidence.

Salaries are lower because now people over seas can do the same jobs for less money. In the 80's there wasn't a population of people w/ the skills to do the work over seas.

Not it's not, because when they leave here they take the job with them.

How many of them leave? I don't know a single person on a H1B visa from China or India that has left (I've known several from Europe). I know a couple from China. They live in a 1 BR apartment in not a nice area. He's in science. She's an MD in China, but that does no good here so she is working as a tech. They had twins. They've sent the twins to China to live w/ her parents.

I'm suggesting that during the 1990's the computer industry in this country created more millionairs than any other industry. It also created more profitable companies than any other industry. They renamed the age from the space age to the computer age based on how profitable and important the computer was. The computer industry didn't suddenly become less profitable and less able to support domestic engineers who were the best in the world at their jobs.

Yes it did because people over seas would do the same work for less. I can't you pay you 10X what somebody else to do the same job or my competitors will hire the people, under cut my price, and put me out of business. Even if my competitor is an over seas company. That's my point about the car industry. Ford and GM wouldn't be in the shape they are if they shipped the jobs out.

The jobs will be there. in India and China. Graduates of our best universities are traveling to India to seek programming jobs because the United States doesn't do software anylonger.

I do know people that are graduating w/ degrees in computer sciences, and math and physics w/ substantial computer programming schooling (my brother actually has a degree in Phyics w/ a concentration in electronic and does a lot of programming in addition to the undergrads I know). None of them are talking about leaving the country to get a job in China or India. Can you post a single link that talks about where this has happened?

As for paying 10x as much, didn't seem to hurt the industry in the 1980's and 1990's when it was the biggest growth industry in the world.

Because nobody else in the world could do the work (at least not as well). This is my point. For a period of time w/ any new technology/industry, there will be a period of time where a small set of people have the knowledge to perform the work. In time (a fairly short amount of time), other people in other countries will learn to do the work. The people that were doing the work will be earning a nice salary because they were very special. As the skill becomes more common, the value of the skill will decrease, and so will their pay.

A better analogy. If in 1924 Ford had decided to build the model T in China or Japan America might have missed the entire latter half of the industrial age.

No it isn't. The computer industry made a lot of money for a lot of people in this country. The US was changed by the computer industry. If Ford had moved in 1924, (as you point out) the effect on the US and its economy would have been nonexistant.

My analogy was good. You just don't seem to want to understand. If you are IBM if you don't move the job to over seas where people will do the same work for less money in a decade or two you will be in as much trouble as Ford and GM because those people are going to work for somebody.

[PeterMP]

That is true. But what you are missing is it's cheaper to do everything in those countries. From your industry, to my industry, to computers, to engineering. Literally there is nothing the US does better based on price point alone when matched against a billion people with an average yearly income of 100$.

That isn't a new phenomina, it's only recently became justification for exporting very important industries foreign governments have targeted as being the keys to future economic and technological advancement. Where will it end?

This has been happening for decades now. It happened to the textile industry way back when. I would guess it most closely tied to the point in time where international travel became reliable enough to transport goods long distances w/ information it is that much faster because it is even easier to transport information today. It isn't something new, and the computer/electronic industry isn't the first time it has happened.

I can literally give you hundreds of first hand examples. Once upon a time Silicon valley was the #1 computer software market. Boston and route 1 was #2. Washington DC was #3.

Today Washington is the #1 computer marketplace in this country based solely on clearance work. The private software market is essencially gone in this country, and it's happenned in the last 7 years.

This doesn't make any sense. If we were importing all of this cheap labor those places would still be on top. You seem to be saying those jobs have gone over seas. I agree, but it was unavoidable.

In the 1980's when we imported 20,000 H1B's engineering wages were higher and we graduated more engineers. In the 21st century we import 10 times as many H1B engineers, salaries are lower, and we graduate a fraction of the students from our universities in computer science and engineering. that's not a coincidence.

Salaries are lower because now people over seas can do the same jobs for less money. In the 80's there wasn't a population of people w/ the skills to do the work over seas.

Not it's not, because when they leave here they take the job with them.

How many of them leave? I don't know a single person on a H1B visa from China or India that has left (I've known several from Europe). I know a couple from China. They live in a 1 BR apartment in not a nice area. He's in science. She's an MD in China, but that does no good here so she is working as a tech. They had twins. They've sent the twins to China to live w/ her parents.

I'm suggesting that during the 1990's the computer industry in this country created more millionairs than any other industry. It also created more profitable companies than any other industry. They renamed the age from the space age to the computer age based on how profitable and important the computer was. The computer industry didn't suddenly become less profitable and less able to support domestic engineers who were the best in the world at their jobs.

Yes it did because people over seas would do the same work for less. I can't you pay you 10X what somebody else to do the same job or my competitors will hire the people, under cut my price, and put me out of business. Even if my competitor is an over seas company. That's my point about the car industry. Ford and GM wouldn't be in the shape they are if they shipped the jobs out.

The jobs will be there. in India and China. Graduates of our best universities are traveling to India to seek programming jobs because the United States doesn't do software anylonger.

I do know people that are graduating w/ degrees in computer sciences, and math and physics w/ substantial computer programming schooling (my brother actually has a degree in Phyics w/ a concentration in electronic and does a lot of programming in addition to the undergrads I know). None of them are talking about leaving the country to get a job in China or India. Can you post a single link that talks about where this has happened?

As for paying 10x as much, didn't seem to hurt the industry in the 1980's and 1990's when it was the biggest growth industry in the world.

Because nobody else in the world could do the work (at least not as well). This is my point. For a period of time w/ any new technology/industry, there will be a period of time where a small set of people have the knowledge to perform the work. In time (a fairly short amount of time), other people in other countries will learn to do the work. The people that were doing the work will be earning a nice salary because they were very special. As the skill becomes more common, the value of the skill will decrease, and so will their pay.

A better analogy. If in 1924 Ford had decided to build the model T in China or Japan America might have missed the entire latter half of the industrial age.

No it isn't. The computer industry made a lot of money for a lot of people in this country. The US was changed by the computer industry. If Ford had moved in 1924, (as you point out) the effect on the US and its economy would have been nonexistant.

My analogy was good. You just don't seem to want to understand. If you are IBM if you don't move the job to over seas where people will do the same work for less money in a decade or two you will be in as much trouble as Ford and GM because those people are going to work for somebody.

[JMS]

This has been happening for decades now. It happened to the textile industry way back when. I would guess it most closely tied to the point in time where international travel became reliable enough to transport goods long distances w/ information it is that much faster because it is even easier to transport information today. It isn't something new, and the computer/electronic industry isn't the first time it has happened.

Actually it hasn't been happennig for decades. Textiles, steel, and the auto industry were examples of trade. Not free trade, but rather one sided managed trade; I'll grant you. Japan can make cars better and faster, so Americans choose to buy their cars, while Japan cuts off and protects there domestic markets from our goods like Rice, fruit, aeronautics, and beef. That's been happenning for decades. What we term Free Trade, and yet how can it be free trade if the United States is the only one who subscribes to it. Doesn't trade require a reciperical arangement?

But that's not what we're discussing... What I'm talking about is importing people from the third and second world into the United States on a massive scale. Legislatively keeping their wages low and tieing them to their jobs. Doing this for six years per developer, as the H1B visa program does. And then sending them home with their job. That's a relatively new phenomina. I'm talking about a partnership between the US government and companies who have legislatively created an indentured servant class to usurp the jobs inside of America. Further I'm saying that one of the draw backs to this practice is that the country is less likely to have the talent pool availible to tackle future jobs, like a mars space mission. The policy of conspiring against engineers and exporting that vocation has the side effect of reducing wages, reducing positions, and reducing folks going into that field. Software engineers are central to most growing segments of the economy. It's a self defeating short sighted yet highly profitable vocation exporting their jobs.

This doesn't make any sense. If we were importing all of this cheap labor those places would still be on top. You seem to be saying those jobs have gone over seas. I agree, but it was unavoidable.

It makes perfect sense. The folks you are importing aren't citizens nor do they stay here after their visa expires. They come here to take entry level positions, learn their skills then go home with the job. Computer Scientists aren't created in the class room. They are created after several years of professional experience. That is what the 200,000 H1B's who enter and leave the country every year are aquiring here.

As for unavoidable I again disagree. What is unavoidable is the foreign companies competing for the jobs. What is avoidable is the US government keeping the domestic workforce from competing. Why should US government create an indentured slave class of engineer in order to facilitate this mass job exudus?

Salaries are lower because now people over seas can do the same jobs for less money. In the 80's there wasn't a population of people w/ the skills to do the work over seas.

No, Wages are lower because the majority of the folks working these jobs in the United States are not citizens. They are H1B indentured servents who make one third to half of what an American makes. Wages are lower because they are bing artificially constrained by micro economic tampering.

How many of them leave? I don't know a single person on a H1B visa from China or India that has left (I've known several from Europe). I know a couple from China. They live in a 1 BR apartment in not a nice area. He's in science. She's an MD in China, but that does no good here so she is working as a tech. They had twins. They've sent the twins to China to live w/ her parents.

In the mid 1990's when we had 20,000 or 30,000 H1B visas quota's; it is true that many tried and were sucessful in aquiring green cards. In 2002; we had 300,000 H1B visa's. There just aren't enough greencard programs to accomidate all those folks. Also aditudes have changed among the engineers. India and China have their own faux software industries now. I say faux because it's based entirely on servicing our own software industry and doesn't really create products of it's own. Today these engineers can make good money ( comparatively) by returning home often times keeping the same job they worked here.

Yes it did because people over seas would do the same work for less. I can't you pay you 10X what somebody else to do the same job or my competitors will hire the people, under cut my price, and put me out of business. Even if my competitor is an over seas company. That's my point about the car industry. Ford and GM wouldn't be in the shape they are if they shipped the jobs out.

The computer scientists didn't spontanously happen over seas. They were created. They were created by the American software industry in order to suplant American workers. The software industry was very profitable before American companies started sending all the work over seas and importing hundreds of thousands of folks to do the work here in this country. It's just more profitable now.

I do know people that are graduating w/ degrees in computer sciences, and math and physics w/ substantial computer programming schooling (my brother actually has a degree in Phyics w/ a concentration in electronic and does a lot of programming in addition to the undergrads I know). None of them are talking about leaving the country to get a job in China or India. Can you post a single link that talks about where this has happened?

Used to be math, physics, engineering and computer science graduates in this country would find lucrative jobs programming. Today American companies do not hire Americans for these jobs. Domestically H1B's are far cheaper and they are tied to their jobs so they can't leave like Americans do after a few years. Internationally once the company has grown the talent pool they can place the job in the second or third world and pay one tenth the cost for the job.

Can I refference a single link. I'll give you three. It's reality. Anybody can find the information if they only look for it.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/asia/articles/2006/05/30/india_tech_firms_seek_us_talent_in_offshoring_twist/

http://searchcio.techtarget.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid19_gci1188793,00.html

http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=9724

Because nobody else in the world could do the work (at least not as well). This is my point. For a period of time w/ any new technology/industry, there will be a period of time where a small set of people have the knowledge to perform the work. In time (a fairly short amount of time), other people in other countries will learn to do the work. The people that were doing the work will be earning a nice salary because they were very special. As the skill becomes more common, the value of the skill will decrease, and so will their pay.

Don't kid yourself. Nobody still does the job as well. It's not about quality of the work. It's solely about price point. India can do it cheaper. China guys cost less. Quality is not the concern. The problem with this is that India and China will always be able to do it cheaper; regardless of the job. A Chineese guy could do Chemical research for one tenth the cost. You might counter that a Chineese researcher isn't as good. But that's not a consideration. The only consideration is he is cheaper. After many years doing your job, he will learn. If he doesn't, they'll find one who will. they can literally employ ten times the number of folks, so if even two out of ten are productive; Hey they've doubled their productivity while cutting costs by 80%.

Why is this a bad thing, cause it effects All meaningful American industry. Today it's software, accounting, and doctors. Tommorrow it will be your industry.

No it isn't. The computer industry made a lot of money for a lot of people in this country. The US was changed by the computer industry. If Ford had moved in 1924, (as you point out) the effect on the US and its economy would have been nonexistant.

We are not shipping dead end jobs over seas. 8 out of 10 of the projected growth industries in the world are tied to computer use. We are literally at teh beginning of the computer age as computing power continues to double every two years ( Moore's Law); computer applications become more and more important.

America exporting the computer software industry in the late 1990's and currently when it is roughly 20 years old; is much more like exporting the auto industry in 1924 when it was roughly two decades old.

My analogy was good. You just don't seem to want to understand. If you are IBM if you don't move the job to over seas where people will do the same work for less money in a decade or two you will be in as much trouble as Ford and GM because those people are going to work for somebody.

What you don't seem to understand is that IBM itself has to train and create the programmers over there before they can do any work. The software folks over there only work for American companies. Or Indian companies doing business for American companies. They don't compete with us.

They've never competed with us professionally. The only competition is on price point. And frankly on price point no American can compete.

[JMS]

This has been happening for decades now. It happened to the textile industry way back when. I would guess it most closely tied to the point in time where international travel became reliable enough to transport goods long distances w/ information it is that much faster because it is even easier to transport information today. It isn't something new, and the computer/electronic industry isn't the first time it has happened.

Actually it hasn't been happennig for decades. Textiles, steel, and the auto industry were examples of trade. Not free trade, but rather one sided managed trade; I'll grant you. Japan can make cars better and faster, so Americans choose to buy their cars, while Japan cuts off and protects there domestic markets from our goods like Rice, fruit, aeronautics, and beef. That's been happenning for decades. What we term Free Trade, and yet how can it be free trade if the United States is the only one who subscribes to it. Doesn't trade require a reciperical arangement?

But that's not what we're discussing... What I'm talking about is importing people from the third and second world into the United States on a massive scale. Legislatively keeping their wages low and tieing them to their jobs. Doing this for six years per developer, as the H1B visa program does. And then sending them home with their job. That's a relatively new phenomina. I'm talking about a partnership between the US government and companies who have legislatively created an indentured servant class to usurp the jobs inside of America. Further I'm saying that one of the draw backs to this practice is that the country is less likely to have the talent pool availible to tackle future jobs, like a mars space mission. The policy of conspiring against engineers and exporting that vocation has the side effect of reducing wages, reducing positions, and reducing folks going into that field. Software engineers are central to most growing segments of the economy. It's a self defeating short sighted yet highly profitable vocation exporting their jobs.

This doesn't make any sense. If we were importing all of this cheap labor those places would still be on top. You seem to be saying those jobs have gone over seas. I agree, but it was unavoidable.

It makes perfect sense. The folks you are importing aren't citizens nor do they stay here after their visa expires. They come here to take entry level positions, learn their skills then go home with the job. Computer Scientists aren't created in the class room. They are created after several years of professional experience. That is what the 200,000 H1B's who enter and leave the country every year are aquiring here.

As for unavoidable I again disagree. What is unavoidable is the foreign companies competing for the jobs. What is avoidable is the US government keeping the domestic workforce from competing. Why should US government create an indentured slave class of engineer in order to facilitate this mass job exudus?

Salaries are lower because now people over seas can do the same jobs for less money. In the 80's there wasn't a population of people w/ the skills to do the work over seas.

No, Wages are lower because the majority of the folks working these jobs in the United States are not citizens. They are H1B indentured servents who make one third to half of what an American makes. Wages are lower because they are bing artificially constrained by micro economic tampering.

How many of them leave? I don't know a single person on a H1B visa from China or India that has left (I've known several from Europe). I know a couple from China. They live in a 1 BR apartment in not a nice area. He's in science. She's an MD in China, but that does no good here so she is working as a tech. They had twins. They've sent the twins to China to live w/ her parents.

In the mid 1990's when we had 20,000 or 30,000 H1B visas quota's; it is true that many tried and were sucessful in aquiring green cards. In 2002; we had 300,000 H1B visa's. There just aren't enough greencard programs to accomidate all those folks. Also aditudes have changed among the engineers. India and China have their own faux software industries now. I say faux because it's based entirely on servicing our own software industry and doesn't really create products of it's own. Today these engineers can make good money ( comparatively) by returning home often times keeping the same job they worked here.

Yes it did because people over seas would do the same work for less. I can't you pay you 10X what somebody else to do the same job or my competitors will hire the people, under cut my price, and put me out of business. Even if my competitor is an over seas company. That's my point about the car industry. Ford and GM wouldn't be in the shape they are if they shipped the jobs out.

The computer scientists didn't spontanously happen over seas. They were created. They were created by the American software industry in order to suplant American workers. The software industry was very profitable before American companies started sending all the work over seas and importing hundreds of thousands of folks to do the work here in this country. It's just more profitable now.

I do know people that are graduating w/ degrees in computer sciences, and math and physics w/ substantial computer programming schooling (my brother actually has a degree in Phyics w/ a concentration in electronic and does a lot of programming in addition to the undergrads I know). None of them are talking about leaving the country to get a job in China or India. Can you post a single link that talks about where this has happened?

Used to be math, physics, engineering and computer science graduates in this country would find lucrative jobs programming. Today American companies do not hire Americans for these jobs. Domestically H1B's are far cheaper and they are tied to their jobs so they can't leave like Americans do after a few years. Internationally once the company has grown the talent pool they can place the job in the second or third world and pay one tenth the cost for the job.

Can I refference a single link. I'll give you three. It's reality. Anybody can find the information if they only look for it.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/asia/articles/2006/05/30/india_tech_firms_seek_us_talent_in_offshoring_twist/

http://searchcio.techtarget.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid19_gci1188793,00.html

http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=9724

Because nobody else in the world could do the work (at least not as well). This is my point. For a period of time w/ any new technology/industry, there will be a period of time where a small set of people have the knowledge to perform the work. In time (a fairly short amount of time), other people in other countries will learn to do the work. The people that were doing the work will be earning a nice salary because they were very special. As the skill becomes more common, the value of the skill will decrease, and so will their pay.

Don't kid yourself. Nobody still does the job as well. It's not about quality of the work. It's solely about price point. India can do it cheaper. China guys cost less. Quality is not the concern. The problem with this is that India and China will always be able to do it cheaper; regardless of the job. A Chineese guy could do Chemical research for one tenth the cost. You might counter that a Chineese researcher isn't as good. But that's not a consideration. The only consideration is he is cheaper. After many years doing your job, he will learn. If he doesn't, they'll find one who will. they can literally employ ten times the number of folks, so if even two out of ten are productive; Hey they've doubled their productivity while cutting costs by 80%.

Why is this a bad thing, cause it effects All meaningful American industry. Today it's software, accounting, and doctors. Tommorrow it will be your industry.

No it isn't. The computer industry made a lot of money for a lot of people in this country. The US was changed by the computer industry. If Ford had moved in 1924, (as you point out) the effect on the US and its economy would have been nonexistant.

We are not shipping dead end jobs over seas. 8 out of 10 of the projected growth industries in the world are tied to computer use. We are literally at teh beginning of the computer age as computing power continues to double every two years ( Moore's Law); computer applications become more and more important.

America exporting the computer software industry in the late 1990's and currently when it is roughly 20 years old; is much more like exporting the auto industry in 1924 when it was roughly two decades old.

My analogy was good. You just don't seem to want to understand. If you are IBM if you don't move the job to over seas where people will do the same work for less money in a decade or two you will be in as much trouble as Ford and GM because those people are going to work for somebody.

What you don't seem to understand is that IBM itself has to train and create the programmers over there before they can do any work. The software folks over there only work for American companies. Or Indian companies doing business for American companies. They don't compete with us.

They've never competed with us professionally. The only competition is on price point. And frankly on price point no American can compete.

[PeterMP]

Actually it hasn't been happennig for decades. Textiles, steel, and the auto industry were examples of trade. Japan can make cars better and faster, so Americans choose to buy their cars. That's been happenning for decades.

Yes, they were trade, but the jobs still left, and my point is it is better for us to have an American company running the jobs over seas than having an American company go out of business because it couldn't compete w/ over seas competition. If the job is going to go it is going to go. If the US companies weren't out sourcing, the jobs would still be going, but the companies would be going out business too.

What I'm talking about is importing people from the third and second world into the United States on a massive scale. Legislatively keeping their wages low and tieing them to their jobs. Doing this for six years per developer, as the H1B visa program does.

They can get a job w/ somebody else. They just need to find somebody that will sponsor their visa. It isn't actually such a big deal. As I stated, most companies have a staff to do just that, and again, I know people that are on visas that have switched jobs multiple times. In general, it seems to me that they are more flexibile than your avg. American worker because they don't tend to have extended family ties here in the US. If your family is in India, what difference does it make if you live in Colorado or NJ.

It makes perfect sense. The folks you are importing aren't citizens nor do they stay here after their visa expires. They come here to take entry level positions, learn their skills then go home with the job. Computer Scientists aren't created in the class room. They are created after several years of professional experience. That is what the 200,000 H1B's who enter and leave the country every year are aquiring here.

By the way a quick look at wikipedia shows the number of H1B visas is and has been under 150,000 people the last couple of years.

No, Wages are lower because the majority of the folks working these jobs in the United States are not citizens. They are H1B indentured servents who make one third to half of what an American makes.

JMS, I think you are playing fast and lose w/ the facts again:

"In 2003, a study for the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta found no effect on salaries, with an average income for both H-1B and American computer programmers of $55,000."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/30/AR2006033001968.html

I know people here on HB-1 visas, and while I don't know their actual income, I can tell by their standard of living, that they aren't making 1/2 to 1/3 what the avg. American w/ the same job makes.

In the mid 1990's when we had 20,000 or 30,000 H1B visas quota's; it is true that many tried and were sucessful in aquiring green cards. In 2002; we had 300,000 H1B visa's.

False on multiple points. The 300,00 number is wrong. The 1990's numbers is also off. The cap in 1997 was 65,000 people, but there were exceptions for people that had degress from US institutions and those that worked from non-profits so the number was even higher than 65,000. I don't know if they didn't keep track of how many actually went out (it wouldn't surprise me), but I can't find a firm number on the web.

http://www.techlawjournal.com/congress/s1723h1b/s1723es.htm

The computer scientists didn't spontanously happen over seas. They were created. They were created by the American software industry in order to suplant American workers. The software industry was very profitable before American companies started sending all the work over seas and importing hundreds of thousands of folks to do the work here in this country. It's just more profitable now.

Again, people were brought here because there weren't enough Americans to do the work. It makes more sense to bring people there, then to leave them unemployed over seas where they will almost certainly be hired by over seas competition. By the way, your claim that wages went down, and then the interest of Americans went away doesn't jibe w/ what people in the Comp. Sci. Dept. tells me or w/ facts:

"Between 1986 and 1995, the number of bachelor's degrees awarded in

computer science declined by 42 percent. Therefore, any short-term

increases in enrollment may only return the United States to the 1986

level of graduates and take several years to produce these additional

graduates"

http://www.techlawjournal.com/congress/s1723h1b/s1723es.htm

And many of the students that were getting degrees weren't Americans.

Can I refference a single link. I'll give you three. It's reality. Anybody can find the information if they only look for it.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/asia/articles/2006/05/30/india_tech_firms_seek_us_talent_in_offshoring_twist/

http://searchcio.techtarget.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid19_gci1188793,00.html

http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=9724

Those are a misrepresentation of your arguement. Those are people that are going over seas to be trained for a job that they aren't trained for. Those aren't people that are highly skilled and ready to work in the field. The guy is a mechanical engineer w/ very little computer skills looking for a programming job.

By the way from your first link:

"For years, US companies have imported talent from the two Indian firms, saying there were not enough technology workers here. However, lengthy delays due to immigration issues such as caps on the number of H1-B visas for foreign professionals prompted Indian companies to develop another strategy."

Getting H1B workers isn't a picnick, and despite your claims they don't get paid 1/2 to 1/3 of the a US worker.

Why is this a bad thing, cause it effects All meaningful American industry. Today it's software, accounting, and doctors. Tommorrow it will be your industry.

It will be the bio-tech industry tomorrow. For the most part their aren't American interested in doing the work it takes to get a job in the field. The majority that are in the field are interested in MD or pharmacy. Indians and some European nations seem to have a lot of good students that will undoubtedly go on to be good bio-tech reasearchers and make companies lot's of money. Many of them are now starting to back to their home country (especially the Europeans).

America exporting the computer software industry in the late 1990's and currently when it is roughly 20 years old; is much more like exporting the auto industry in 1924 when it was roughly two decades old.

The world is smaller. Think in terms of money. I'll bet it took 60 years for Americans to make the amount of money on cars that they did in 10 years w/ computers/hi-tech electronics.

What you don't seem to understand is that IBM itself has to train and create the programmers over there before they can do any work.

No because many of them got an education here.

The software folks over there only work for American companies. Or Indian companies doing business for American companies. They don't compete with us.

That's a good thing for us because if they did American companies would be going out of business.

Look are their abuses in the system? Yes, if you are a company and you sponsor a worker, and they don't stay for all 6 years you should be heavily fined, and you should pay a penalty in terms of the number or how many H1-B visas you are given in the future, but the whole system isn't broken, and many of the claims you make aren't accurate.

The fact of the matter though is there was an extended period of time where few Americans were going into these fields. There were a large number of people over seas that were interested in going into them. If the American companies didn't hire them, they would have stayed over seas, been hired by some other company, which would have paid them much less, and in time, that company would have out competed the American company and the jobs in the US would have left AND the the US company would have gone out of business. The fact that the jobs are leaving isn't a good thing, but it is unavoidable unless you want to seriously depress our standard of living, and it is better to have the jobs leave and the American company to stay in business rather then have the jobs leave and the American company go out of business.

[PeterMP]

Actually it hasn't been happennig for decades. Textiles, steel, and the auto industry were examples of trade. Japan can make cars better and faster, so Americans choose to buy their cars. That's been happenning for decades.

Yes, they were trade, but the jobs still left, and my point is it is better for us to have an American company running the jobs over seas than having an American company go out of business because it couldn't compete w/ over seas competition. If the job is going to go it is going to go. If the US companies weren't out sourcing, the jobs would still be going, but the companies would be going out business too.

What I'm talking about is importing people from the third and second world into the United States on a massive scale. Legislatively keeping their wages low and tieing them to their jobs. Doing this for six years per developer, as the H1B visa program does.

They can get a job w/ somebody else. They just need to find somebody that will sponsor their visa. It isn't actually such a big deal. As I stated, most companies have a staff to do just that, and again, I know people that are on visas that have switched jobs multiple times. In general, it seems to me that they are more flexibile than your avg. American worker because they don't tend to have extended family ties here in the US. If your family is in India, what difference does it make if you live in Colorado or NJ.

It makes perfect sense. The folks you are importing aren't citizens nor do they stay here after their visa expires. They come here to take entry level positions, learn their skills then go home with the job. Computer Scientists aren't created in the class room. They are created after several years of professional experience. That is what the 200,000 H1B's who enter and leave the country every year are aquiring here.

By the way a quick look at wikipedia shows the number of H1B visas is and has been under 150,000 people the last couple of years.

No, Wages are lower because the majority of the folks working these jobs in the United States are not citizens. They are H1B indentured servents who make one third to half of what an American makes.

JMS, I think you are playing fast and lose w/ the facts again:

"In 2003, a study for the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta found no effect on salaries, with an average income for both H-1B and American computer programmers of $55,000."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/30/AR2006033001968.html

I know people here on HB-1 visas, and while I don't know their actual income, I can tell by their standard of living, that they aren't making 1/2 to 1/3 what the avg. American w/ the same job makes.

In the mid 1990's when we had 20,000 or 30,000 H1B visas quota's; it is true that many tried and were sucessful in aquiring green cards. In 2002; we had 300,000 H1B visa's.

False on multiple points. The 300,00 number is wrong. The 1990's numbers is also off. The cap in 1997 was 65,000 people, but there were exceptions for people that had degress from US institutions and those that worked from non-profits so the number was even higher than 65,000. I don't know if they didn't keep track of how many actually went out (it wouldn't surprise me), but I can't find a firm number on the web.

http://www.techlawjournal.com/congress/s1723h1b/s1723es.htm

The computer scientists didn't spontanously happen over seas. They were created. They were created by the American software industry in order to suplant American workers. The software industry was very profitable before American companies started sending all the work over seas and importing hundreds of thousands of folks to do the work here in this country. It's just more profitable now.

Again, people were brought here because there weren't enough Americans to do the work. It makes more sense to bring people there, then to leave them unemployed over seas where they will almost certainly be hired by over seas competition. By the way, your claim that wages went down, and then the interest of Americans went away doesn't jibe w/ what people in the Comp. Sci. Dept. tells me or w/ facts:

"Between 1986 and 1995, the number of bachelor's degrees awarded in

computer science declined by 42 percent. Therefore, any short-term

increases in enrollment may only return the United States to the 1986

level of graduates and take several years to produce these additional

graduates"

http://www.techlawjournal.com/congress/s1723h1b/s1723es.htm

And many of the students that were getting degrees weren't Americans.

Can I refference a single link. I'll give you three. It's reality. Anybody can find the information if they only look for it.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/asia/articles/2006/05/30/india_tech_firms_seek_us_talent_in_offshoring_twist/

http://searchcio.techtarget.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid19_gci1188793,00.html

http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=9724

Those are a misrepresentation of your arguement. Those are people that are going over seas to be trained for a job that they aren't trained for. Those aren't people that are highly skilled and ready to work in the field. The guy is a mechanical engineer w/ very little computer skills looking for a programming job.

By the way from your first link:

"For years, US companies have imported talent from the two Indian firms, saying there were not enough technology workers here. However, lengthy delays due to immigration issues such as caps on the number of H1-B visas for foreign professionals prompted Indian companies to develop another strategy."

Getting H1B workers isn't a picnick, and despite your claims they don't get paid 1/2 to 1/3 of the a US worker.

Why is this a bad thing, cause it effects All meaningful American industry. Today it's software, accounting, and doctors. Tommorrow it will be your industry.

It will be the bio-tech industry tomorrow. For the most part their aren't American interested in doing the work it takes to get a job in the field. The majority that are in the field are interested in MD or pharmacy. Indians and some European nations seem to have a lot of good students that will undoubtedly go on to be good bio-tech reasearchers and make companies lot's of money. Many of them are now starting to back to their home country (especially the Europeans).

America exporting the computer software industry in the late 1990's and currently when it is roughly 20 years old; is much more like exporting the auto industry in 1924 when it was roughly two decades old.

The world is smaller. Think in terms of money. I'll bet it took 60 years for Americans to make the amount of money on cars that they did in 10 years w/ computers/hi-tech electronics.

What you don't seem to understand is that IBM itself has to train and create the programmers over there before they can do any work.

No because many of them got an education here.

The software folks over there only work for American companies. Or Indian companies doing business for American companies. They don't compete with us.

That's a good thing for us because if they did American companies would be going out of business.

Look are their abuses in the system? Yes, if you are a company and you sponsor a worker, and they don't stay for all 6 years you should be heavily fined, and you should pay a penalty in terms of the number or how many H1-B visas you are given in the future, but the whole system isn't broken, and many of the claims you make aren't accurate.

The fact of the matter though is there was an extended period of time where few Americans were going into these fields. There were a large number of people over seas that were interested in going into them. If the American companies didn't hire them, they would have stayed over seas, been hired by some other company, which would have paid them much less, and in time, that company would have out competed the American company and the jobs in the US would have left AND the the US company would have gone out of business. The fact that the jobs are leaving isn't a good thing, but it is unavoidable unless you want to seriously depress our standard of living, and it is better to have the jobs leave and the American company to stay in business rather then have the jobs leave and the American company go out of business.

[Corcaigh]

^^^^^

I agree with Peter's comments entirely.

While H1-B visa holders do have less mobility than green card holders or citizens, the process has safeguards to ensure that the visa holders are being paid close to market rates, AND there are sufficient US companies that are willing to hire H1-Bs at market rates so those who find themselves here and realize they are underpaid can correct it. That combined with the cost to the employer of applying for H1-B visas means that it isn't efficient for employers to cheat the system.

H1-B is not about a brain drain either. Many tech ompanies in Silicon Valley and elsewhere were founded by immigrants.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v405/n6786/full/405598a0.html

[Corcaigh]

^^^^^

I agree with Peter's comments entirely.

While H1-B visa holders do have less mobility than green card holders or citizens, the process has safeguards to ensure that the visa holders are being paid close to market rates, AND there are sufficient US companies that are willing to hire H1-Bs at market rates so those who find themselves here and realize they are underpaid can correct it. That combined with the cost to the employer of applying for H1-B visas means that it isn't efficient for employers to cheat the system.

H1-B is not about a brain drain either. Many tech ompanies in Silicon Valley and elsewhere were founded by immigrants.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v405/n6786/full/405598a0.html

[JMS]

Yes, they were trade, but the jobs still left, and my point is it is better for us to have an American company running the jobs over seas than having an American company go out of business because it couldn't compete w/ over seas competition. If the job is going to go it is going to go. If the US companies weren't out sourcing, the jobs would still be going, but the companies would be going out business too.

Ok first off, we aren't talking about trade. We are talking about something new. Importing labor to subplant Americans, rather than importing goods.

Second off, Chineese and Indian companies do not compete with American companies. They never have. They service our companies by supplying them cheap laborers. These industries did not spontaneously create themselves rather We created them and continue to fuel them.

Thus I think your point about addapt or die is not a valid one.

They can get a job w/ somebody else. They just need to find somebody that will sponsor their visa. It isn't actually such a big deal. As I stated, most companies have a staff to do just that, and again, I know people that are on visas that have switched jobs multiple times. In general, it seems to me that they are more flexibile than your avg. American worker because they don't tend to have extended family ties here in the US. If your family is in India, what difference does it make if you live in Colorado or NJ.

They can get jobs with somebody else if they want to restart the clock on their green card, hire a lawyer, and sucessfully jump through all the legislative bariers the government has set up to contain them.

They are not free to answer an add in the newspaper and change jobs as an American is. They aren't free to participate in the free market and offer their labor to the highest bidder.

By the way a quick look at wikipedia shows the number of H1B visas is and has been under 150,000 people the last couple of years.

That's true. The program peaked from 2001-2004 at 195,000 per year and is currently bellow 150,000 when you add H1B and L1 visa's together.

JMS, I think you are playing fast and lose w/ the facts again:

"In 2003, a study for the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta found no effect on salaries, with an average income for both H-1B and American computer programmers of $55,000."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/30/AR2006033001968.html

:doh: , like 55,000 is a reasonable wage for a programmer much less an average wage. Why don't you open up your browser to Monster, Dice or Washington post .com and see for yourself if that's an average wage for a programer.

Fact is H1B visa holders are not free to test the market, are tied to their jobs, and agree to their salaries before they come to this country as terms of their visa's. All of these things depress their wages and they do make a third to half of what Americans make. Again this is first hand experience.

I know people here on HB-1 visas, and while I don't know their actual income, I can tell by their standard of living, that they aren't making 1/2 to 1/3 what the avg. American w/ the same job makes.

The entire reason for the H1B program is because they are cheaper. They serve no other purpose than to save money.

False on multiple points. The 300,00 number is wrong. The 1990's numbers is also off. The cap in 1997 was 65,000 people, but there were exceptions for people that had degress from US institutions and those that worked from non-profits so the number was even higher than 65,000. I don't know if they didn't keep track of how many actually went out (it wouldn't surprise me), but I can't find a firm number on the web.

Yes the quotas grew rapidly in the 1990's. from 20-30,000 in the early 1990's to 65,000-90,000 in the late 1990's. The program was increased to 195,000 from 2001-2004 while the software industry in this country was contracting and American workers were being layed off. But you are also right that the H1B visa quota isn't the entire story. There is also the L1 visa program and many other foreign workers from non profits or folks educated here who aren't subject to either the H1B or L1 visas. You are also right that even the quota numbers are not hard numbers as visa's have continued to go out in years after the quota number had been reached.

I think my numbers are representative.

Again, people were brought here because there weren't enough Americans to do the work. It makes more sense to bring people there, then to leave them unemployed over seas where they will almost certainly be hired by over seas competition. By the way, your claim that wages went down, and then the interest of Americans went away doesn't jibe w/ what people in the Comp. Sci. Dept. tells me or w/ facts:

"Between 1986 and 1995, the number of bachelor's degrees awarded in

computer science declined by 42 percent. Therefore, any short-term

increases in enrollment may only return the United States to the 1986

level of graduates and take several years to produce these additional

graduates"

http://www.techlawjournal.com/congress/s1723h1b/s1723es.htm

And many of the students that were getting degrees weren't Americans.

That's the story, but the story is fiction.

The facts are that H1B visa program in this country went from 115,00 folks in 2000 to 195,000 folks in 2001-2004 while the software market was shrinking and Americans were being layed off from work.

The facts are that while we didn't graduate enough engineers in the mid 1990's as you stated, most of the folks employed in the software markets at that time were not graduated engineers. The computer science degree itself was only a decade old at that time. Also by importing the cheap indentured labor salaries and jobs in this country for American workers have dramatically contracted; so the net effect is we are today graduating even fewer engineers than we were in the mid 1990's.

Those are a misrepresentation of your arguement. Those are people that are going over seas to be trained for a job that they aren't trained for. Those aren't people that are highly skilled and ready to work in the field. The guy is a mechanical engineer w/ very little computer skills looking for a programming job.

Most Mechanical engineers in this country traditionally end up in the computer field. Just like Electrical, Chemical and Aeronatical engineers do. The fact is this guy is going to India to find a job in programming rather than getting a programming job for an American company. Why? Because American's are not attractive to American companies. They cost more. They have job mobility in the marketplace meaning they are less likely to stay for 5-6 years. These are advantages American legislation has handed to foreign workers who shouldnt' even be here in the first place.

By the way from your first link:

"For years, US companies have imported talent from the two Indian firms, saying there were not enough technology workers here. However, lengthy delays due to immigration issues such as caps on the number of H1-B visas for foreign professionals prompted Indian companies to develop another strategy."

Getting H1B workers isn't a picnick, and despite your claims they don't get paid 1/2 to 1/3 of the a US worker.

:doh: an American new graduate 30 years ago could make 70,000k a year in computer science his first year out of school. I know several people who did it. But your article says today H1B's are making 50k? What do you think those H1B's are making five years down the road? Your article doesn't say that does it? What kind of increase would you give a guy who you know has no option but to remain in his job or leave the country? Bupkus that's how much.

Fact is their visa's are tied to their jobs. Fact is they negotiate their salaries while still standing the the third/second world. Fact is once they get here they have zero leverage in negotiating hire salaries. The fact is even when Americans are being laied off as in the 2001-2003; H1B visa's went up by almost 100% and still ran out only months after the fiscal year started.

There is no shortage of Americans willing to work in technology. The only thing the H1B's have is price point. That's all they ever had.

It will be the bio-tech industry tomorrow. For the most part their aren't American interested in doing the work it takes to get a job in the field. The majority that are in the field are interested in MD or pharmacy. Indians and some European nations seem to have a lot of good students that will undoubtedly go on to be good bio-tech reasearchers and make companies lot's of money. Many of them are now starting to back to their home country (especially the Europeans).

What does a PHD start out in cancer research? 40-50 k a year? If he's lucky. Do you think those salaries have anything to do with the reason why Americans are less attracted to the jobs in those fields. A doctor or a pharmacy guy will start at what 2 or 3 times that salary. That's why those other fields are attractive. It's price point.

The world is smaller. Think in terms of money. I'll bet it took 60 years for Americans to make the amount of money on cars that they did in 10 years w/ computers/hi-tech electronics.

Well all things are relative. The first model T cost 200$.. ( educated guess ) the first PC cost around $5000. The point is that the auto industry employed millions of folks in this country for decades. The number of folks globally employed in Computers and Computer related fields is growing globally. I don't see why we are subsudizing exporting the industry and getting out of the industry as a country. It's very short sighted of us.

No because many of them got an education here. ( IBM's Indian's employees).

Most got their formal education in India. Few got formal education here ( American education is very expensive ). But many were trained here on the job thanks to the H1B and L1 visa programs. Those folks trained here became the seeds of the Indian and Chineese software industries.

That's a good thing for us because if they did American companies would be going out of business.

:doh: , yeah because the Chineese or Indians are burning up the market with their software products? NOT!!!

It's one thing to take a job from your American counterpart cause you work cheaper. It's entirely a different thing to create a job, product, or industry.

Look are their abuses in the system? Yes, if you are a company and you sponsor a worker, and they don't stay for all 6 years you should be heavily fined, and you should pay a penalty in terms of the number or how many H1-B visas you are given in the future, but the whole system isn't broken, and many of the claims you make aren't accurate.

The entier H1B program is works perfectly. It was designed to export American jobs and that's exactly what it does. the entire Chineese and Indian software industries owe there existance to this program which creates cheap laborers at the expense of American workers.

The fact of the matter though is there was an extended period of time where few Americans were going into these fields. There were a large number of people over seas that were interested in going into them. If the American companies didn't hire them, they would have stayed over seas, been hired by some other company, which would have paid them much less, and in time, that company would have out competed the American company and the jobs in the US would have left AND the the US company would have gone out of business. The fact that the jobs are leaving isn't a good thing, but it is unavoidable unless you want to seriously depress our standard of living, and it is better to have the jobs leave and the American company to stay in business rather then have the jobs leave and the American company go out of business.

Their is no advantage to sending the work over to India for US consumers. Microsofts OS cost 50$ a decade ago and it costs twice that today even though it's made in India.

The folks who became billion airs based on the Work of US programmers in the 1990's are just adding to their wealth by getting cheaper folks to do the work.

[JMS]

Yes, they were trade, but the jobs still left, and my point is it is better for us to have an American company running the jobs over seas than having an American company go out of business because it couldn't compete w/ over seas competition. If the job is going to go it is going to go. If the US companies weren't out sourcing, the jobs would still be going, but the companies would be going out business too.

Ok first off, we aren't talking about trade. We are talking about something new. Importing labor to subplant Americans, rather than importing goods.

Second off, Chineese and Indian companies do not compete with American companies. They never have. They service our companies by supplying them cheap laborers. These industries did not spontaneously create themselves rather We created them and continue to fuel them.

Thus I think your point about addapt or die is not a valid one.

They can get a job w/ somebody else. They just need to find somebody that will sponsor their visa. It isn't actually such a big deal. As I stated, most companies have a staff to do just that, and again, I know people that are on visas that have switched jobs multiple times. In general, it seems to me that they are more flexibile than your avg. American worker because they don't tend to have extended family ties here in the US. If your family is in India, what difference does it make if you live in Colorado or NJ.

They can get jobs with somebody else if they want to restart the clock on their green card, hire a lawyer, and sucessfully jump through all the legislative bariers the government has set up to contain them.

They are not free to answer an add in the newspaper and change jobs as an American is. They aren't free to participate in the free market and offer their labor to the highest bidder.

By the way a quick look at wikipedia shows the number of H1B visas is and has been under 150,000 people the last couple of years.

That's true. The program peaked from 2001-2004 at 195,000 per year and is currently bellow 150,000 when you add H1B and L1 visa's together.

JMS, I think you are playing fast and lose w/ the facts again:

"In 2003, a study for the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta found no effect on salaries, with an average income for both H-1B and American computer programmers of $55,000."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/30/AR2006033001968.html

:doh: , like 55,000 is a reasonable wage for a programmer much less an average wage. Why don't you open up your browser to Monster, Dice or Washington post .com and see for yourself if that's an average wage for a programer.

Fact is H1B visa holders are not free to test the market, are tied to their jobs, and agree to their salaries before they come to this country as terms of their visa's. All of these things depress their wages and they do make a third to half of what Americans make. Again this is first hand experience.

I know people here on HB-1 visas, and while I don't know their actual income, I can tell by their standard of living, that they aren't making 1/2 to 1/3 what the avg. American w/ the same job makes.

The entire reason for the H1B program is because they are cheaper. They serve no other purpose than to save money.

False on multiple points. The 300,00 number is wrong. The 1990's numbers is also off. The cap in 1997 was 65,000 people, but there were exceptions for people that had degress from US institutions and those that worked from non-profits so the number was even higher than 65,000. I don't know if they didn't keep track of how many actually went out (it wouldn't surprise me), but I can't find a firm number on the web.

Yes the quotas grew rapidly in the 1990's. from 20-30,000 in the early 1990's to 65,000-90,000 in the late 1990's. The program was increased to 195,000 from 2001-2004 while the software industry in this country was contracting and American workers were being layed off. But you are also right that the H1B visa quota isn't the entire story. There is also the L1 visa program and many other foreign workers from non profits or folks educated here who aren't subject to either the H1B or L1 visas. You are also right that even the quota numbers are not hard numbers as visa's have continued to go out in years after the quota number had been reached.

I think my numbers are representative.

Again, people were brought here because there weren't enough Americans to do the work. It makes more sense to bring people there, then to leave them unemployed over seas where they will almost certainly be hired by over seas competition. By the way, your claim that wages went down, and then the interest of Americans went away doesn't jibe w/ what people in the Comp. Sci. Dept. tells me or w/ facts:

"Between 1986 and 1995, the number of bachelor's degrees awarded in

computer science declined by 42 percent. Therefore, any short-term

increases in enrollment may only return the United States to the 1986

level of graduates and take several years to produce these additional

graduates"

http://www.techlawjournal.com/congress/s1723h1b/s1723es.htm

And many of the students that were getting degrees weren't Americans.

That's the story, but the story is fiction.

The facts are that H1B visa program in this country went from 115,00 folks in 2000 to 195,000 folks in 2001-2004 while the software market was shrinking and Americans were being layed off from work.

The facts are that while we didn't graduate enough engineers in the mid 1990's as you stated, most of the folks employed in the software markets at that time were not graduated engineers. The computer science degree itself was only a decade old at that time. Also by importing the cheap indentured labor salaries and jobs in this country for American workers have dramatically contracted; so the net effect is we are today graduating even fewer engineers than we were in the mid 1990's.

Those are a misrepresentation of your arguement. Those are people that are going over seas to be trained for a job that they aren't trained for. Those aren't people that are highly skilled and ready to work in the field. The guy is a mechanical engineer w/ very little computer skills looking for a programming job.

Most Mechanical engineers in this country traditionally end up in the computer field. Just like Electrical, Chemical and Aeronatical engineers do. The fact is this guy is going to India to find a job in programming rather than getting a programming job for an American company. Why? Because American's are not attractive to American companies. They cost more. They have job mobility in the marketplace meaning they are less likely to stay for 5-6 years. These are advantages American legislation has handed to foreign workers who shouldnt' even be here in the first place.

By the way from your first link:

"For years, US companies have imported talent from the two Indian firms, saying there were not enough technology workers here. However, lengthy delays due to immigration issues such as caps on the number of H1-B visas for foreign professionals prompted Indian companies to develop another strategy."

Getting H1B workers isn't a picnick, and despite your claims they don't get paid 1/2 to 1/3 of the a US worker.

:doh: an American new graduate 30 years ago could make 70,000k a year in computer science his first year out of school. I know several people who did it. But your article says today H1B's are making 50k? What do you think those H1B's are making five years down the road? Your article doesn't say that does it? What kind of increase would you give a guy who you know has no option but to remain in his job or leave the country? Bupkus that's how much.

Fact is their visa's are tied to their jobs. Fact is they negotiate their salaries while still standing the the third/second world. Fact is once they get here they have zero leverage in negotiating hire salaries. The fact is even when Americans are being laied off as in the 2001-2003; H1B visa's went up by almost 100% and still ran out only months after the fiscal year started.

There is no shortage of Americans willing to work in technology. The only thing the H1B's have is price point. That's all they ever had.

It will be the bio-tech industry tomorrow. For the most part their aren't American interested in doing the work it takes to get a job in the field. The majority that are in the field are interested in MD or pharmacy. Indians and some European nations seem to have a lot of good students that will undoubtedly go on to be good bio-tech reasearchers and make companies lot's of money. Many of them are now starting to back to their home country (especially the Europeans).

What does a PHD start out in cancer research? 40-50 k a year? If he's lucky. Do you think those salaries have anything to do with the reason why Americans are less attracted to the jobs in those fields. A doctor or a pharmacy guy will start at what 2 or 3 times that salary. That's why those other fields are attractive. It's price point.

The world is smaller. Think in terms of money. I'll bet it took 60 years for Americans to make the amount of money on cars that they did in 10 years w/ computers/hi-tech electronics.

Well all things are relative. The first model T cost 200$.. ( educated guess ) the first PC cost around $5000. The point is that the auto industry employed millions of folks in this country for decades. The number of folks globally employed in Computers and Computer related fields is growing globally. I don't see why we are subsudizing exporting the industry and getting out of the industry as a country. It's very short sighted of us.

No because many of them got an education here. ( IBM's Indian's employees).

Most got their formal education in India. Few got formal education here ( American education is very expensive ). But many were trained here on the job thanks to the H1B and L1 visa programs. Those folks trained here became the seeds of the Indian and Chineese software industries.

That's a good thing for us because if they did American companies would be going out of business.

:doh: , yeah because the Chineese or Indians are burning up the market with their software products? NOT!!!

It's one thing to take a job from your American counterpart cause you work cheaper. It's entirely a different thing to create a job, product, or industry.

Look are their abuses in the system? Yes, if you are a company and you sponsor a worker, and they don't stay for all 6 years you should be heavily fined, and you should pay a penalty in terms of the number or how many H1-B visas you are given in the future, but the whole system isn't broken, and many of the claims you make aren't accurate.

The entier H1B program is works perfectly. It was designed to export American jobs and that's exactly what it does. the entire Chineese and Indian software industries owe there existance to this program which creates cheap laborers at the expense of American workers.

The fact of the matter though is there was an extended period of time where few Americans were going into these fields. There were a large number of people over seas that were interested in going into them. If the American companies didn't hire them, they would have stayed over seas, been hired by some other company, which would have paid them much less, and in time, that company would have out competed the American company and the jobs in the US would have left AND the the US company would have gone out of business. The fact that the jobs are leaving isn't a good thing, but it is unavoidable unless you want to seriously depress our standard of living, and it is better to have the jobs leave and the American company to stay in business rather then have the jobs leave and the American company go out of business.

Their is no advantage to sending the work over to India for US consumers. Microsofts OS cost 50$ a decade ago and it costs twice that today even though it's made in India.

The folks who became billion airs based on the Work of US programmers in the 1990's are just adding to their wealth by getting cheaper folks to do the work.

[Shilsu]

Hasn't America always been the source of new innovation and inventions and other countries just improve on it?

Automobiles, cell phones, electronics, etc.

[Shilsu]

Hasn't America always been the source of new innovation and inventions and other countries just improve on it?

Automobiles, cell phones, electronics, etc.

[PeterMP]

Hasn't America always been the source of new innovation and inventions and other countries just improve on it?

Automobiles, cell phones, electronics, etc.

Ever heard of Sputnik?

[PeterMP]

Hasn't America always been the source of new innovation and inventions and other countries just improve on it?

Automobiles, cell phones, electronics, etc.

Ever heard of Sputnik?