JMS Posted October 25, 2007 Author Share Posted October 25, 2007 The way we've exported our high tech industrys, it makes one wonder if we can maintain our technological edge. What's Behind Asia's Moon Race? (Ford, CSM) Thursday, October 25, 2007 The Christian Science Monitor By Peter Ford Beijing As the rocket carrying China's first lunar probe blasted off Wednesday evening, it left in its wake a vapor trail of questions about the nature of Asia's new space race. The continent's giants are jockeying for position beyond the earth's atmosphere. Japan launched its own moon orbiter last month. India plans to send a similar satellite up next year. The dawn of the Asian space age, however, has been darkened by suspicion, instead of cooperation. "This means more competition because of the lingering security concerns all three countries have about one another," says Bates Gill, director of the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute. "Because of the military relevance of space missions and technology, real cooperation will be difficult." The moon shots, all designed to learn more about the lunar atmosphere and surface, have no military purpose, officials in the three new space powers are quick to point out. But in a field where civilian technological advances can easily be put to military use, nations closely scrutinize each of their neighbors' steps forward. India is nervous about China's intentions, especialy in the wake of Beijing's test of an antisatellite missile last January. China worries that Japan's missile defense cooperation with the US might threaten its interests, and resents Washington's determination to remain the world's dominant space power. Japan is rattled by North Korea's ballistic-missile capability. Against that background, Dr. Gill adds, "an Asian NASA sounds a bit far-fetched." That, argues Joan Johnson-Freese, a space expert at the US Naval War College in Newport, R.I., is because the Asian nations' space programs are largely driven by "technonationalism; they generate pride domestically and they demonstrate prowess internationally." The chief scientist for China's moon program, Ouyang Ziyuan, said in an interview earlier this year with the official People's Daily: "Lunar exploration is a reflection of a country's comprehensive national power and is significant for raising our international prestige and increasing our people's cohesion." Space programs also boost high-tech skills. "China needs its lunar and manned flight projects to nurture the aerospace industry and bring along a cadre of young engineers who will develop its space industry, GPS, Earth observation, and communications, along with military applications," says Gregory Kulacki, a China analyst with the Union of Concerned Scientists in Washington. "The main meaning [of the Chinese moon program] on the industrial side is that we have to set up many new abilities in satellitemaking, long-range telemetry, and so on," says Zhang Wei, a senior official with the Chinese National Space Administration. Such challenges are important, too, in India, where the scientific community is seeking new frontiers now that New Delhi's nuclear program is mature. "The only other avenue for growth and development of scientific technology is space technology," says Swapna Kona, an analyst at the Institute of Peace and Conflict Studies in New Delhi. In Japan, space exploration holds out the promise of autonomy. "Japan needs to secure its own means of launching a satellite," says Akinori Hashimoto, a spokesman for Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency. "Now, we cannot launch one whenever we want to and we are concerned about information leakage." China, Japan, and India are all focusing on the moon, says Dr. Kulacki, because it is "close, doable" and a logical first step in interplanetary exploration. Some officials see practical rewards beyond the scientific knowledge to be gleaned by mapping and analyzing the lunar surface. The moon is thought to be rich in Helium-3, for example, which could one day be used for nuclear fusion to create energy. India's Chandrayaan probe will search for Helium-3, the head of India's space research organization said last year. China's Chang'e I orbiter will also sniff for it. "Mineral resources and energy ... will be a very important field that humans will compete for," Mr. Ouyang told the People's Daily. The 1979 UN Moon Agreement bans ownership of lunar resources, but none of the nations launching lunar satellites, including the US, have ratified it, although India has signed it. India has also been one of the most vociferous opponents of allowing weapons in space. Officials reacted with disquiet to China's destruction of an old weather satellite last January, proving that Beijing could threaten US and other satellites in space warfare. "We are treading a thin line between current defense-related uses of space and its actual weaponization," warned Indian Foreign Minister Pranab Mukherjee soon after the Chinese missile test. He called on all states to "redouble efforts" toward a treaty guaranteeing the peaceful use of space. China, too, has long called for such a treaty, which Washington rejects, but some analysts now doubt Beijing's sincerity. "Having recognized the futility of trying to get the US on board, and recognizing how weapons in space could be of benefit to China, that has dulled their enthusiasm," suggests Gill. Japan, meanwhile, is shifting its approach to space-based defenses in the face of threats from North Korea. A ballistic-missile test in 1998 over its territory jolted Japan's space program into new life. The ruling Liberal Democratic Party is seeking to redefine the current "peaceful" use of space to mean "non-aggressive" rather than "nonmilitary," as is currently the case. The "Basic Space" bill enshrining this change is expected to pass by next March, freeing the Japanese Defense Ministry to launch spy satellites. • Mark Sappenfield in New Delhi and Takehiko Kambayashi in Tokyo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 The way we've exported our high tech industrys, it makes one wonder if we can maintain our technological edge. What's Behind Asia's Moon Race? (Ford, CSM) Thursday, October 25, 2007 The Christian Science Monitor By Peter Ford Beijing As the rocket carrying China's first lunar probe blasted off Wednesday evening, it left in its wake a vapor trail of questions about the nature of Asia's new space race. The continent's giants are jockeying for position beyond the earth's atmosphere. Japan launched its own moon orbiter last month. India plans to send a similar satellite up next year. The dawn of the Asian space age, however, has been darkened by suspicion, instead of cooperation. "This means more competition because of the lingering security concerns all three countries have about one another," says Bates Gill, director of the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute. "Because of the military relevance of space missions and technology, real cooperation will be difficult." The moon shots, all designed to learn more about the lunar atmosphere and surface, have no military purpose, officials in the three new space powers are quick to point out. But in a field where civilian technological advances can easily be put to military use, nations closely scrutinize each of their neighbors' steps forward. India is nervous about China's intentions, especialy in the wake of Beijing's test of an antisatellite missile last January. China worries that Japan's missile defense cooperation with the US might threaten its interests, and resents Washington's determination to remain the world's dominant space power. Japan is rattled by North Korea's ballistic-missile capability. Against that background, Dr. Gill adds, "an Asian NASA sounds a bit far-fetched." That, argues Joan Johnson-Freese, a space expert at the US Naval War College in Newport, R.I., is because the Asian nations' space programs are largely driven by "technonationalism; they generate pride domestically and they demonstrate prowess internationally." The chief scientist for China's moon program, Ouyang Ziyuan, said in an interview earlier this year with the official People's Daily: "Lunar exploration is a reflection of a country's comprehensive national power and is significant for raising our international prestige and increasing our people's cohesion." Space programs also boost high-tech skills. "China needs its lunar and manned flight projects to nurture the aerospace industry and bring along a cadre of young engineers who will develop its space industry, GPS, Earth observation, and communications, along with military applications," says Gregory Kulacki, a China analyst with the Union of Concerned Scientists in Washington. "The main meaning [of the Chinese moon program] on the industrial side is that we have to set up many new abilities in satellitemaking, long-range telemetry, and so on," says Zhang Wei, a senior official with the Chinese National Space Administration. Such challenges are important, too, in India, where the scientific community is seeking new frontiers now that New Delhi's nuclear program is mature. "The only other avenue for growth and development of scientific technology is space technology," says Swapna Kona, an analyst at the Institute of Peace and Conflict Studies in New Delhi. In Japan, space exploration holds out the promise of autonomy. "Japan needs to secure its own means of launching a satellite," says Akinori Hashimoto, a spokesman for Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency. "Now, we cannot launch one whenever we want to and we are concerned about information leakage." China, Japan, and India are all focusing on the moon, says Dr. Kulacki, because it is "close, doable" and a logical first step in interplanetary exploration. Some officials see practical rewards beyond the scientific knowledge to be gleaned by mapping and analyzing the lunar surface. The moon is thought to be rich in Helium-3, for example, which could one day be used for nuclear fusion to create energy. India's Chandrayaan probe will search for Helium-3, the head of India's space research organization said last year. China's Chang'e I orbiter will also sniff for it. "Mineral resources and energy ... will be a very important field that humans will compete for," Mr. Ouyang told the People's Daily. The 1979 UN Moon Agreement bans ownership of lunar resources, but none of the nations launching lunar satellites, including the US, have ratified it, although India has signed it. India has also been one of the most vociferous opponents of allowing weapons in space. Officials reacted with disquiet to China's destruction of an old weather satellite last January, proving that Beijing could threaten US and other satellites in space warfare. "We are treading a thin line between current defense-related uses of space and its actual weaponization," warned Indian Foreign Minister Pranab Mukherjee soon after the Chinese missile test. He called on all states to "redouble efforts" toward a treaty guaranteeing the peaceful use of space. China, too, has long called for such a treaty, which Washington rejects, but some analysts now doubt Beijing's sincerity. "Having recognized the futility of trying to get the US on board, and recognizing how weapons in space could be of benefit to China, that has dulled their enthusiasm," suggests Gill. Japan, meanwhile, is shifting its approach to space-based defenses in the face of threats from North Korea. A ballistic-missile test in 1998 over its territory jolted Japan's space program into new life. The ruling Liberal Democratic Party is seeking to redefine the current "peaceful" use of space to mean "non-aggressive" rather than "nonmilitary," as is currently the case. The "Basic Space" bill enshrining this change is expected to pass by next March, freeing the Japanese Defense Ministry to launch spy satellites. • Mark Sappenfield in New Delhi and Takehiko Kambayashi in Tokyo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 JMS our technological edge was always very slight. Going back 25 years ago if you asked people who had the technological edge, it was Japan by far. Due to some luck, short sightedness on the part of Japan, and a couple of briliant people, we got the edge back w/ PC's and software. The next country to find the next "revolutionary" technology will have the dominant economy for a short period of time. We will go through cycles of this lasting maybe two decades in to the foreseeable future IMO. Maybe somewhere again one country will get an essentially insurmountable edge that will allow them to stay on top for an extended period of time, but I doubt it. Where that technology and where will it come from? Who knows? It could be bio, quantum, nano, some combination there of, or something completely different. The Chinese, Indians, and the Japanese are all trying hard in multiple areas to find something. Others, like the Irish, are focusing resources into a specific area (in the case of the Irish it is biotech w/ a computational/electronic/mathematical edge). At this time, I would bet against us. To many smart people here are still caught up in the idea that the transfer of money from one individual to another is the equivalent of making money so are purusing careers as things like lawyers and money managers. Maybe we will get lucky and we will again have a few special individuals that will lead the way, but last time, we didn't have the competition because the Japanese had been seduced by the same concepts, and the Chinese and Indians didn't have as large as an educated class or the capitial to pursue the next revolutionary technology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 JMS our technological edge was always very slight. Going back 25 years ago if you asked people who had the technological edge, it was Japan by far. Due to some luck, short sightedness on the part of Japan, and a couple of briliant people, we got the edge back w/ PC's and software. The next country to find the next "revolutionary" technology will have the dominant economy for a short period of time. We will go through cycles of this lasting maybe two decades in to the foreseeable future IMO. Maybe somewhere again one country will get an essentially insurmountable edge that will allow them to stay on top for an extended period of time, but I doubt it. Where that technology and where will it come from? Who knows? It could be bio, quantum, nano, some combination there of, or something completely different. The Chinese, Indians, and the Japanese are all trying hard in multiple areas to find something. Others, like the Irish, are focusing resources into a specific area (in the case of the Irish it is biotech w/ a computational/electronic/mathematical edge). At this time, I would bet against us. To many smart people here are still caught up in the idea that the transfer of money from one individual to another is the equivalent of making money so are purusing careers as things like lawyers and money managers. Maybe we will get lucky and we will again have a few special individuals that will lead the way, but last time, we didn't have the competition because the Japanese had been seduced by the same concepts, and the Chinese and Indians didn't have as large as an educated class or the capitial to pursue the next revolutionary technology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjah Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 IMHO, space is pretty much always about military superiority. Manned space missions and scientific research (Hubble) put a friendly, peaceful spin on it and get the public behind the huge expenditures involved. But fundamentally, developing space technology is all about developing or improving weapons and weapons-support technology. The "giant leaps" are driven by military competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjah Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 IMHO, space is pretty much always about military superiority. Manned space missions and scientific research (Hubble) put a friendly, peaceful spin on it and get the public behind the huge expenditures involved. But fundamentally, developing space technology is all about developing or improving weapons and weapons-support technology. The "giant leaps" are driven by military competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyber Pimp Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 JMS our technological edge was always very slight. Going back 25 years ago if you asked people who had the technological edge, it was Japan by far. Due to some luck, short sightedness on the part of Japan, and a couple of briliant people, we got the edge back w/ PC's and software. The next country to find the next "revolutionary" technology will have the dominant economy for a short period of time. We will go through cycles of this lasting maybe two decades in to the foreseeable future IMO. Maybe somewhere again one country will get an essentially insurmountable edge that will allow them to stay on top for an extended period of time, but I doubt it.Where that technology and where will it come from? Who knows? It could be bio, quantum, nano, some combination there of, or something completely different. The Chinese, Indians, and the Japanese are all trying hard in multiple areas to find something. Others, like the Irish, are focusing resources into a specific area (in the case of the Irish it is biotech w/ a computational/electronic/mathematical edge). At this time, I would bet against us. To many smart people here are still caught up in the idea that the transfer of money from one individual to another is the equivalent of making money so are purusing careers as things like lawyers and money managers. Maybe we will get lucky and we will again have a few special individuals that will lead the way, but last time, we didn't have the competition because the Japanese had been seduced by the same concepts, and the Chinese and Indians didn't have as large as an educated class or the capitial to pursue the next revolutionary technology. The US will never have the edge in technology. We are around 5 years behind euorpe and asia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyber Pimp Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 JMS our technological edge was always very slight. Going back 25 years ago if you asked people who had the technological edge, it was Japan by far. Due to some luck, short sightedness on the part of Japan, and a couple of briliant people, we got the edge back w/ PC's and software. The next country to find the next "revolutionary" technology will have the dominant economy for a short period of time. We will go through cycles of this lasting maybe two decades in to the foreseeable future IMO. Maybe somewhere again one country will get an essentially insurmountable edge that will allow them to stay on top for an extended period of time, but I doubt it.Where that technology and where will it come from? Who knows? It could be bio, quantum, nano, some combination there of, or something completely different. The Chinese, Indians, and the Japanese are all trying hard in multiple areas to find something. Others, like the Irish, are focusing resources into a specific area (in the case of the Irish it is biotech w/ a computational/electronic/mathematical edge). At this time, I would bet against us. To many smart people here are still caught up in the idea that the transfer of money from one individual to another is the equivalent of making money so are purusing careers as things like lawyers and money managers. Maybe we will get lucky and we will again have a few special individuals that will lead the way, but last time, we didn't have the competition because the Japanese had been seduced by the same concepts, and the Chinese and Indians didn't have as large as an educated class or the capitial to pursue the next revolutionary technology. The US will never have the edge in technology. We are around 5 years behind euorpe and asia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 The US will never have the edge in technology. We are around 5 years behind euorpe and asia. Asia and Europe aren't one country. We certainly did, and I would argue still do and some fields. We might not in the near future, but will likely again sometime. As one example, here is company in the biological fields that in terms of companies has no real competition (yet): http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/home.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&cmpid=4533 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 The US will never have the edge in technology. We are around 5 years behind euorpe and asia. Asia and Europe aren't one country. We certainly did, and I would argue still do and some fields. We might not in the near future, but will likely again sometime. As one example, here is company in the biological fields that in terms of companies has no real competition (yet): http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/home.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&cmpid=4533 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 IMHO, space is pretty much always about military superiority.Manned space missions and scientific research (Hubble) put a friendly, peaceful spin on it and get the public behind the huge expenditures involved. But fundamentally, developing space technology is all about developing or improving weapons and weapons-support technology. The "giant leaps" are driven by military competition. The desire for national prestige also plays a large part. China is very hungry for that - that is why the upcoming Olympics are such a big deal to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 IMHO, space is pretty much always about military superiority.Manned space missions and scientific research (Hubble) put a friendly, peaceful spin on it and get the public behind the huge expenditures involved. But fundamentally, developing space technology is all about developing or improving weapons and weapons-support technology. The "giant leaps" are driven by military competition. The desire for national prestige also plays a large part. China is very hungry for that - that is why the upcoming Olympics are such a big deal to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enter Apotheosis Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 It took me five minutes to realize that Bates Gill is not Bill Gates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enter Apotheosis Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 It took me five minutes to realize that Bates Gill is not Bill Gates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyber Pimp Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Asia and Europe aren't one country.We certainly did, and I would argue still do and some fields. We might not in the near future, but will likely again sometime. As one example, here is company in the biological fields that in terms of companies has no real competition (yet): http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/home.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&cmpid=4533 I seen s*it over there that will make you cream your pants. They use mobile video phones that you can see who you talking to. They use 3G networks everywhere. You can pay for a taxi or groceries with you cell phone. The US is behind big time compared to alot of places. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyber Pimp Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Asia and Europe aren't one country.We certainly did, and I would argue still do and some fields. We might not in the near future, but will likely again sometime. As one example, here is company in the biological fields that in terms of companies has no real competition (yet): http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/home.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&cmpid=4533 I seen s*it over there that will make you cream your pants. They use mobile video phones that you can see who you talking to. They use 3G networks everywhere. You can pay for a taxi or groceries with you cell phone. The US is behind big time compared to alot of places. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xameil Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 I seen s*it over there that will make you cream your pants. They use mobile video phones that you can see who you talking to. They use 3G networks everywhere. You can pay for a taxi or groceries with you cell phone. The US is behind big time compared to alot of places. they've been doing that for years haven't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xameil Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 I seen s*it over there that will make you cream your pants. They use mobile video phones that you can see who you talking to. They use 3G networks everywhere. You can pay for a taxi or groceries with you cell phone. The US is behind big time compared to alot of places. they've been doing that for years haven't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinInsite Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Does the Asian rockets have some kickass spoilers and neon flood light? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinInsite Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Does the Asian rockets have some kickass spoilers and neon flood light? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjah Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Yep, and a special oversized chrome exhaust nozzle on the rocket engine that makes it sound like a perpetual wet fart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjah Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Yep, and a special oversized chrome exhaust nozzle on the rocket engine that makes it sound like a perpetual wet fart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 I seen s*it over there that will make you cream your pants. They use mobile video phones that you can see who you talking to. They use 3G networks everywhere. You can pay for a taxi or groceries with you cell phone. The US is behind big time compared to alot of places. We are talking about two different things. You are looking at a very superficial level. DE has EZ pass lanes that you can go through at 65 MPH. I haven't driven in any other state that does. Is DE the most technologically advanced state in the region? No. They use the technology better, but in terms of really making technology and having technology jobs that can't be done elsewhere because of education/expertise, they certainly aren't better off than NJ. The same is true for Europe, Asia, and the US right now. They might be doing things w/ the technology that we aren't, but they aren't making things that can't be made here and vice versa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 I seen s*it over there that will make you cream your pants. They use mobile video phones that you can see who you talking to. They use 3G networks everywhere. You can pay for a taxi or groceries with you cell phone. The US is behind big time compared to alot of places. We are talking about two different things. You are looking at a very superficial level. DE has EZ pass lanes that you can go through at 65 MPH. I haven't driven in any other state that does. Is DE the most technologically advanced state in the region? No. They use the technology better, but in terms of really making technology and having technology jobs that can't be done elsewhere because of education/expertise, they certainly aren't better off than NJ. The same is true for Europe, Asia, and the US right now. They might be doing things w/ the technology that we aren't, but they aren't making things that can't be made here and vice versa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 DE has EZ pass lanes that you can go through at 65 MPH. I haven't driven in any other state that does. . We have that out here too. It's awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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