Most think founders wanted Christian USA

[oisn1]

Go and see how much of Christianity is laced all throughout early America. From a church being one of the first buildings erected in any town (showing how important it was considered) to the schoolbooks ("Primers") used to teach the children, Christianity completely and totally saturated early America, and it's influence is still seen today, as this article demonstrates.

That's what is quite amazing about Jefferson; when he created the University of Virginia, he built a library in the middle of the campus instead of a church and even did away with one of the most common degrees of the time, Theology. As he stated, "a professorship of theology should have no place in our institution."

[Zguy28]

That's what is quite amazing about Jefferson; when he created the University of Virginia, he built a library in the middle of the campus instead of a church and even did away with one of the most common degrees of the time, Theology. As he stated, "a professorship of theology should have no place in our institution."

One thing to remember for that time was also that men like Jefferson, in addition to his non-Christian beliefs, also saw what could happen if church (in that case it was Anglican) went to bed with the government.

[ntotoro]

JFK was the Catholic pres.

But what does WASP stand for?

White Anglo-Saxon Protestant.

[JMS]

Most Americans would be wrong about that. While most of the founders of the country believed in god, few agreed on religion and some very notable founding fathers would not even be considered Christians today.

Benjamin Franklin was a Unitarian, and did not believe Christ was Divine.

Thomas Jefferson not only didn't believe in the divinity of Christ, he also didn't believe in a cognitive or an inteligent God. Jefferson believed in a Spinoza type nature god.

Even the Protestants among the founding fathers did not agree on religions and their sects of religion had a history of pursecuting each other both here in the United States ( new England etc ).. and in Europe.

That's why the founding fathers unmistakable tried to remove religion from the governments purview. Not because the founding fathers didn't care about religion. It's because they cared so much about their personal religions. Because they cared so much about their own religions that they didn't want them changed/effected by the democratic process which requires compromise and removes individual supremacy over whatever comes under it's per view.

Today folks are just ignorant about the history of religious pursecution around the world. Folks frame their views based on todays debate between believers and non believers ( himanists). The fact is in the middle ages most folks were religious, and those religions preyed upon one another.

Religion is a poor basis for democracy because faith by it's very nature discourages or even eliminates compromise.

The founding fathes didn't want anybody dictating to them on religion so they agreed on a form of government were the government was literally removed from religion.

[Zguy28]

Most Americans would be wrong about that. While most of the founders of the country believed in god, few agreed on religion and some very notable founding fathers would not even be considered Christians today.

Benjamin Franklin was a Unitarian, and did not believe Christ was Divine.

Thomas Jefferson not only didn't believe in the divinity of Christ, he also didn't believe in a cognitive or an inteligent God. Jefferson believed in a Spinoza type nature god.

Even the Protestants among the founding fathers did not agree on religions and their sects of religion had a history of pursecuting each other both here in the United States ( new England etc ).. and in Europe.

That's why the founding fathers unmistakable tried to remove religion from the governments purview. Not because the founding fathers didn't care about religion. It's because they cared so much about their personal religions. Because they cared so much about their own religions that they didn't want them changed/effected by the democratic process which requires compromise and removes individual supremacy over whatever comes under it's per view.

Today folks are just ignorant about the history of religious pursecution around the world. Folks frame their views based on todays debate between believers and non believers ( himanists). The fact is in the middle ages most folks were religious, and those religions preyed upon one another.

Religion is a poor basis for democracy because faith by it's very nature discourages or even eliminates compromise.

The founding fathes didn't want anybody dictating to them on religion so they agreed on a form of government were the government was literally removed from religion.

I think that's a pretty fair synopsis JMS.

The only thing I would add, is that while the Founders were for freedom of religion, they also used that same freedom in their decision making.

That is why you have George Washington writing:

It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible.

While just government protects all in their religious rights, true religion affords to government its surest support.

(Source: George Washington, The Writings of George Washington, John C. Fitzpatrick, editor (Washington, D.C.: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1932), Vol. XXX, p. 432 n., from his address to the Synod of the Dutch Reformed Church in North America, October 9, 1789.)

Clearly he believed what he wrote and he governed according to what he believed. Much like George Bush or any president supposedly does.

It also is reflected in why Jefferson would say what he would say about theology or his belief in deism.

I find it quite amusing when people are surprised themselves with the revelation that Jefferson committed adultery with his slave girls. What do they expect? He didn't hold to Godly morals, why should he have lived by them or used them to govern?

[ACW]

Think about it: did the founders REALLY want a theocracy??? I don't think so.

[Zguy28]

Think about it: did the founders REALLY want a theocracy??? I don't think so.

No doubt.

[JMS]

I think that's a pretty fair synopsis JMS.

The only thing I would add, is that while the Founders were for freedom of religion, they also used that same freedom in their decision making.

That is why you have George Washington writing:

Washington neither signed nor contributed to the constitution or declaration of independence. What you are stating were his personal beliefs which likely many Presidents held. I remember Teddy Roosevelt said something similar. Likely Carter, Reagan and Bush Jr too.

As for Jefferson and the slave girl. Jefferson also broke his leg jumping out of a window in France while he was our ambassador there. The husband of his lady friend came home early. That injury plagued him for the rest of his life. Jefferson's liaisons were legendary. Not extra marital however. Jefferson's wife died very young. She made Jefferson swear on her death bed not to remarry in front of his children. She put their daughter in charge of making sure he was true to his word. Something she dutifully did. Liaisons were all Jefferson was left with.

[CrabR]

I find it quite amusing when people are surprised themselves with the revelation that Jefferson committed adultery with his slave girls. What do they expect? He didn't hold to Godly morals, why should he have lived by them or used them to govern?

So what is the difference between Jeffson having sex with his slave girl and David and Solomon having sex with their hundreds of slave girls[concubines]

[Zguy28]

Washington neither signed nor contributed to the constitution or declaration of independence. What you are stating were his personal beliefs which likely many Presidents held. I remember Teddy Roosevelt said something similar. Likely Carter, Reagan and Bush Jr too.

As for Jefferson and the slave girl. Jefferson also broke his leg jumping out of a window in France while he was our ambassador there. The husband of his lady friend came home early. That injury plagued him for the rest of his life. Jefferson's liaisons were legendary. Not extra marital however. Jefferson's wife died very young. She made Jefferson swear on her death bed not to remarry in front of his children. She put their daughter in charge of making sure he was true to his word. Something she dutifully did. Liaisons were all Jefferson was left with.

DIdn't know that about his wife. Good catch.

So what is the difference between Jeffson having sex with his slave girl and David and Solomon having sex with their hundreds of slave girls[concubines]

In you pettiness, you neglected to notice I wasn't dissing Jefferson, I'm actually distantly related to him. I was demonstrating a point about decision making and personal values, hence also my inclusion of Washington.

[Predicto]

Clearly [George Washington] believed what he wrote and he governed according to what he believed. Much like George Bush or any president supposedly does.

Actually, George Washington's religious views are surprisingly hard to determine. He also said: "Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be deprecated." He never mentioned Christ, he made no statements about the afterlife, he gave his children no religious instruction, he did not take communion. The best guess is that he was a man of the Enlightenment, a Deist.

However, old George was a wily man, and he told his audiences what they wanted to hear in order to garner their support. That quote you cited was from a letter to Dutch Clergymen. His communications with Quakers, for example, were quite different.

This is what Jefferson had to say about Washington's beliefs: ""Dr. Rush told me (he had it from Asa Green) that when the clergy addressed General Washington, on his departure from the government, it was observed in their consultation that he had never, on any occasion, said a word to the public which showed a belief in the Christian religion, and they thought they should so pen their address as to force him at length to disclose publicly whether he was a Christian or not. However, he observed, the old fox was too cunning for them. He answered every article of their address particularly, except that, which he passed over without notice."

Here's a quick read on the subject: www.virginiaplaces.org/religion/religiongw.html

[Zguy28]

Actually, George Washington's religious views are surprisingly hard to determine. He also said: "Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be deprecated." He never mentioned Christ, he made no statements about the afterlife, he gave his children no religious instruction, he did not take communion. The best guess is that he was a man of the Enlightenment, a Deist.

However, old George was a wily man, and he told his audiences what they wanted to hear in order to garner their support. That quote you cited was from a letter to Dutch Clergymen. His communications with Quakers, for example, were quite different.

This is what Jefferson had to say about Washington's beliefs: ""Dr. Rush told me (he had it from Asa Green) that when the clergy addressed General Washington, on his departure from the government, it was observed in their consultation that he had never, on any occasion, said a word to the public which showed a belief in the Christian religion, and they thought they should so pen their address as to force him at length to disclose publicly whether he was a Christian or not. However, he observed, the old fox was too cunning for them. He answered every article of their address particularly, except that, which he passed over without notice."

Here's a quick read on the subject: www.virginiaplaces.org/religion/religiongw.html

I found this as well.

http://www.ushistory.org/valleyforge/youasked/060.htm

Very good quick read, including a letter from his adopted daughter.

[Predicto]

I found this as well.

http://www.ushistory.org/valleyforge/youasked/060.htm

Very good quick read, including a letter from his adopted daughter.

Here's a link to indicate that his own pastors did not agree with her assessment.

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/john_remsburg/six_historic_americans/chapter_3.html

It may be a problem of definition. Saying that someone was "not a Christian" means something very different depending on what definitions are being used.

[JMS]

I didn't realize that about Washington. So Washington and Jefferson were both Diests.. very interesting.

No wonder Jefferson put freedom of religion into our constitution. Jefferson also wrote the Virginia state constitution and modeled the national constitution after the document he penned for the state. At least that's what I heard.

[rincewind]

I love when Christians get all misty eyed for the days of genocide and slavery.

[Zguy28]

I didn't realize that about Washington. So Washington and Jefferson were both Diests.. very interesting.

Actually, nobody really knows, as Predicto and I are discussing.

I love when Christians get all misty eyed for the days of genocide and slavery.

Now that wasn't necessary was it?

[rincewind]

Actually, nobody really knows, as Predicto and I are discussing.

Now that wasn't necessary was it?

Sorry, I just don't get the whole want to return to the values of VERY flawed people who lived 200 years ago. These people practiced wholesale murdr of the indigenous people, enslaved an entire continent, and refused to pay taxes. I thank them for finding this country and setting up a great government, but I have no desire to relive their daily life practices.

[Zguy28]

Sorry, I just don't get the whole want to return to the values of VERY flawed people who lived 200 years ago. These people practiced wholesale murdr of the indigenous people, enslaved an entire continent, and refused to pay taxes. I thank them for finding this country and setting up a great government, but I have no desire to relive their daily life practices.

How is that different than what men do today?

I think maybe you think I am for a theocracy since I'm an evangelical. Let me clarify, I am not. I am a firm believer in separation of church and state.

I posted this story because I thought it interesting since it is contrary to what I thought most people believed today.

[rincewind]

How is that different than what men do today?

Huh? Americans are practicing genocide and slavery?

[Zguy28]

Huh? Americans are practicing genocide and slavery?

I didn't say Americans.

[Predicto]

I didn't realize that about Washington. So Washington and Jefferson were both Diests.. very interesting.

.

Jefferson, yes. Franklin, yes.

Washington, maybe. He played his cards very close to his vest.

[Zguy28]

Jefferson, yes. Franklin, yes.

Washington, maybe. He played his cards very close to his vest.

He was also the one who apparently requested chaplains be enlisted in the Continental Army.

I found this interesting as well:

He called a general thanks to God for December 18, 1777, as provided by Congressional resolution, but more to the point are his words written to the Rev. Israel Evans, Chaplain to Poor's New Hampshire Brigade. Mr. Evans had caused his sermon, as delivered at Gulph Mills the day before the entry into Valley Forge, to be printed by Francis Bailey at Lancaster and one of these imprints reached Washington March 12, 1778. From Headquarters, Valley Forge, the next day, March 13, Washington wrote Mr. Evans as follows:

"Revd. Sir: Your favor of the 17th. Ulto., inclosing the discourse which you delivered on the 18th. of December; the day set a part for a general thanksgiving; to Genl. Poors' Brigade, never came to my hands till yesterday.

"I have read this performance with equal attention and pleasure, and at the same time that I admire, and feel the force of the reasoning which you have displayed through the whole, it is more especially incumbent upon me to thank you for the honorable, but partial mention you have made of my character; and to assure you, that it will ever be the first wish of my heart to aid your pious endeavors to inculcate a due sense of the dependence we ought to place in that all wise and powerful Being on whom alone our success depends; and moreover, to assure you, that with the respect and regard, I am, etc."

http://www.ushistory.org/valleyforge/washington/prayer.html

[rincewind]

I didn't say Americans.

Not sure of your point - but I would say we should idolize those people either. Peace, love, and understanding man.

[Zguy28]

Not sure of your point - but I would say we should idolize those people either.

I'm saying that man has not changed. We like to think we're "enlightened" but we're no better nowadays.

We still kill. We just find more efficient ways of doing it and dealing with the guilt.

Peace, love, and understanding man.

I prefer "faith, hope, and love."

[Predicto]

He was also the one who apparently requested chaplains be enlisted in the Continental Army.

Yes, he did. But many historians think he did that because he understood that many soldiers were devout, and he wanted to have as effective a fighting force as possible.

In the Revolutionary War, Washington supported troops selecting their own chaplains (such as the Universalist John Murray) while trying to avoid the development of factions within the army. Religion offered him moral leverage to instill discipline, reduce theft, deter desertion, and minimize other rambunctious behaviors that upset local residents. It was logical for Washington to invoke the name of the Divine, but it may have been motivated more by a desire for improving life on earth rather than dealing with life after death.

http://www.virginiaplaces.org/religion/religiongw.html

As far as the letter you quote, again, look to the recipient. Washington wrote more piously to the pious.

I don't think we are going to resolve this here. We can agree that Washington was a great man of strong moral fiber without determining his exact religious beliefs.

Just to add (NSFW):

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4525175059678327643&q=washington&total=74235&start=0&num=20&so=0&type=search&plindex=0