ESPN.com: A History of Mistrust (Vick related)

[portisizzle]

To zoony's point, I think in general in this country we have an unhealhty obsession with morality and punishment. It's like we, as a culture, just enjoy punishing people, enjoy seeing people get locked up. I really hate it.

Well that would sure explain Vick's obsession with mutilating dogs.

[DCsportsfan53]

Tell you what. Next time you eat a nice juicy Pit Bull steak or slip on a Staffordshire fur coat, I'll consider buying the bull ****. Until then, there is NO justification for dog fighting.

That's not really a fair arguement to what he was saying. I think you know full well that plenty of people hunt with no intention of using any part of the carcass. I despise those practices, personally, but hey, it IS legal so to compare it the way you did doesn't work.

Honestly zoony has a point in ref to what dogs are bred and used for. The reaction this whole thing raises is rather strange given all the other very similar things we find tolerable, especially in realtion to animals. It's actually quite hypocritical. Either you're one way or the other. Instead, we pick and choose which animals it's ok with and in what ways it's ok for a dog to end up dead. A hunting dog goes lame and can't hunt and gets put down? Not many people will bat an eye. But this is so much different. There's definitely a high degree of relativism and hypocrisy around this whole subject, that's for sure.

[DCsportsfan53]

Well that would sure explain Vick's obsession with mutilating dogs.

Actually, that's another thing I thought of. If I'm not mistaken, no one is actually accusing Vick of pulling the trigger or killing these dogs by himself, right? I do think it's ****ed up that because of celebrity, the scumbags who actually DID the electrcuting/shooting/beating/ect will plea to lesser sentences because Vick is the "prize catch" in the deal because of who he is.

[portisizzle]

Actually, that's another thing I thought of. If I'm not mistaken, no one is actually accusing Vick of pulling the trigger or killing these dogs by himself, right? I do think it's ****ed up that because of celebrity, the scumbags who actually DID the electrcuting/shooting/beating/ect will plea to lesser sentences because Vick is the "prize catch" in the deal because of who he is.

Vick had a choice. He made that choice. How dare you try to rewrite this scenario in order to shine Vick with some brighter light.

When Enron went down who got the jailtime? The leaders. Not the pencil pushers.

[Enter Apotheosis]

It was continuing on the crazy parallel you made...Somehow when I mention a slave 'working'...you said "I am forced to work everyday as well"...you seem to make terrible comparisons...all that involve slavery. B-More has a great museum if you'd like to educate yourself on the atrocities (not being sarcastic). I don't think after stepping foot there, that you'd compare anything in your life (I don't as a black man) to anything they were subject to.

You still are completely missing the gist of what I'm saying. I'm not minimizing the impact of slavery as you seem to believe I am, I was strictly making a reference to what you were saying about how the acceptance of dogfighting has changed.

While we're on the subject, though... ever been to the Holocaust museum in DC? Thats pretty horrific as well.

I wouldn't say that noone cared...but that it was a crime = to any others. You would think dog abuse is pedophilia for all these strong emotions it illicits. And I ask:

How much of this is truly over dogs?

How much of this is over animal rights?

How much of this is over Vick?

How much of this is over Vick's race?

Those are all questions that are different for each individual casting judgement.

Things like "Vick should be locked up with the scum that he is", "There's no place for Vick in society", I didn't hear/see this passion a few months ago. Again I ask why for Vick? If anyone has a chance to be scared straight it's someone that isn't doing it for financial gain, and as a hobby. It definitely isn't even a sizable fraction of his income.

There's a lot of "Vick is scum" because everyone knows who Michael Vick is. Public figures draw more scorn because you can put a name and a face to the atrocity much easier. It's sad because of the dogs, it brings up the issue of animal rights, its newsworthy because its Vick (a celebrity), and its not over race unless you - as an individual - choose to make it about race.

I still fail to see any similarity between dogfighting & slavery. Dogfighting & slavery...don't even belong in the same sentence.

Because you're completely incapable of reading anything I say in context. :doh:

[Bang]

How much of this is truly over dogs?

Most of it. Most of the 'outrage' is coming from PETA and other groups. People opinions may be outraged, too, but it's because they like dogs, and think being cruel to them is inhumane.

How much of this is over animal rights?

Partly. Mostly for the PETA loons, though. The majority of regular folks think the animals should have rights, but those idiots want to give them the vote as well.

How much of this is over Vick?

Some. It would be naive to think that the Feds did not target him believing they could use his already nice life as a threat to make him turn over more evidence and other fighters.

How much of this is over Vick's race?

None of it. I think the people making it over race are either manipulators of age old tensions for their own gain, or folks not slick enough to know when they're being manipulated. It's not about race no matter how much the media wants to create the divide. It's an easy story after all, you don't even really have to provide any proof,, you just have to imply, and there are plenty of folks ready to take up the torch. Another great thing about instilling the race angle in the press is it self perpetuates. If they can inject it into these proceedings, which they have, their job is that much easier to do every day. Responsible journalism be damned.

Those are all questions that are different for each individual casting judgement.

I'm not casting judgment on the guy, I'm all for giving him his day in court. And those are my answers.

I still fail to see any similarity between dogfighting & slavery. Dogfighting & slavery...don't even belong in the same sentence.

No, they don't, and there's been a lot of bad comparisons made here. The problem with dogfighting is it's inhumane nature of making these animals fight and maim each other simply for our enjoyment. As civilized people, we should see this as cruel, and we should reject it.

Comparing it to slavery is ridiculous, comparing it to horse racing is just as ridiculous. It seems that some would like to paint our society as one who must cure all of it's ills before it can prosecute any. The laments over the unfairness compared to other crimes being committed of lesser or worse degree, it's just misdirection. We can say this is bad AND that is bad. We can say that yes things aren't perfect and maybe some other laws and punishments need to be addressed, but it doesn't change or excuse this situation.

~Bang

[portisizzle]

So those who are defending Vick I have a question for you.

If this were Payton Manning in this predicament are you suggesting that he would be getting better treatment both in the public and in the legal system?

[DCsportsfan53]

Vick had a choice. He made that choice. How dare you try to rewrite this scenario in order to shine Vick with some brighter light.

When Enron went down who got the jailtime? The leaders. Not the pencil pushers.

How dare I? :laugh: Dude, relax, it's just a conversation. I'm not defending Vick at all. However, I would like to see the guys who actually pulled the trigger do MORE time than him, that's all I was saying.

[portisizzle]

How dare I? :laugh: Dude, relax, it's just a conversation. I'm not defending Vick at all. However, I would like to see the guys who actually pulled the trigger do MORE time than him, that's all I was saying.

Yea, how dare you. There should be two groups of people defending this guy.

1) His family

2) His lawyers

End of story.

[DCsportsfan53]

Yea, how dare you. There should be two groups of people defending this guy.

1) His family

2) His lawyers

End of story.

I'm not even defending him. Why don't you hop off the high horse for once, saint izzle?

[portisizzle]

I'm not even defending him. Why don't you hop off the high horse for once, saint izzle?

Here is your quote.

"There's definitely a high degree of relativism and hypocrisy around this whole subject, that's for sure."

If you are not defending Vick you most certainly are trying to marginalize the seriousness of the charge. If I have you wrong on this point then I apologize.

saint izzle....nice.

[AdamB]

Actually, that's another thing I thought of. If I'm not mistaken, no one is actually accusing Vick of pulling the trigger or killing these dogs by himself, right? I do think it's ****ed up that because of celebrity, the scumbags who actually DID the electrcuting/shooting/beating/ect will plea to lesser sentences because Vick is the "prize catch" in the deal because of who he is.

Point #83 of the indictment listed Vick as having taken part in the execution of 8 dogs via hanging, drowning, and throwing one to the ground in April 2007.

[zoony]

Tell you what. Next time you eat a nice juicy Pit Bull steak or slip on a Staffordshire fur coat, I'll consider buying the bull ****. Until then, there is NO justification for dog fighting.

That's where your emotions are not actually allowing you to talk about this. You have it wrong... I'm not trying to justify anything. Didn't I make myself clear? His actions were wrong.

I'm simply pointing out the idiocy of the current laws on the books. You are hellbent about making the argument about everything other than that.

.......

[zoony]

That's not really a fair arguement to what he was saying. I think you know full well that plenty of people hunt with no intention of using any part of the carcass. I despise those practices, personally, but hey, it IS legal so to compare it the way you did doesn't work.

Honestly zoony has a point in ref to what dogs are bred and used for. The reaction this whole thing raises is rather strange given all the other very similar things we find tolerable, especially in realtion to animals. It's actually quite hypocritical. Either you're one way or the other. Instead, we pick and choose which animals it's ok with and in what ways it's ok for a dog to end up dead. A hunting dog goes lame and can't hunt and gets put down? Not many people will bat an eye. But this is so much different. There's definitely a high degree of relativism and hypocrisy around this whole subject, that's for sure.

EXACTLY!

Honestly... I think a lot of folks start to get uncomfortable when they follow the logic, hence the emotions in this thread.

[DCsportsfan53]

Here is your quote.

"There's definitely a high degree of relativism and hypocrisy around this whole subject, that's for sure."

If you are not defending Vick you most certainly are trying to marginalize the seriousness of the charge. If I have you wrong on this point then I apologize.

saint izzle....nice.

I didn't say that in relation to Vick. That was said in relation to dog fighting vs dogs bred to hunt lions and such, as zoony had pointed out, as well as the treatment many other animals go through in food mills and the like. I was pointing out that there's hypocrisy in which animals generate outrage if they're treated badly and under what circumstances. That's not to say that what Vick did was anything short of deplorable and I sincerely hope that, if convicted, he serves a significant amount of jail time.

It's not that I'm trying marginalize the seriousness of what he did, I find dog fighting absolutely disgusting. However, being objective about it, I have to say the stance our country has on it is highly hypocrtical given the other things zoony and I have been mentioning.

[portisizzle]

I didn't say that in relation to Vick. That was said in relation to dog fighting vs dogs bred to hunt lions and such, as zoony had pointed out, as well as the treatment many other animals go through in food mills and the like. I was pointing out that there's hypocrisy in which animals generate outrage if they're treated badly and under what circumstances. That's not to say that what Vick did was anything short of deplorable and I sincerely hope that, if convicted, he serves a significant amount of jail time.

Then saint izzle owes you an apology.

[zoony]

Yea, how dare you. There should be two groups of people defending this guy.

1) His family

2) His lawyers

End of story.

I can see how you're trying to frame the argument in your favor to make it about Michael Vick.

I don't think either myself or DCSportsFan could have made it any clearer... we don't agree with Vick's actions, and frankly they are dispicable.

That said, there is some serious hypocrisy surronding current dog-fighting laws on the books. And I can certainly see how putting someone behind bars for 6 years because of what amounts to an arbitrary application of the law would lead people to become upset and cry foul.

And for the record, the racism card is complete bull. Anyone who wants to play it should have to go sit in the corner and not be able to come out until they can think like a grownup. (I just had to get that off my chest b/c of the thread we're in.)

[DCsportsfan53]

Then saint izzle owes you an apology.

I appreciate that. I'm a HUGE dog lover, as anyone who's been to my house can attest, and fighting them is something I could never understand. I was more throwing ideas around for conversation's sake and trying to point out that there's a little bit more here than either A) dog fighting bad or dog fighting good. When you get past the obvious and understandable emotional reaction to the situation, there are a lot of details that make you think, at least in my case.

[megared]

You still are completely missing the gist of what I'm saying. I'm not minimizing the impact of slavery as you seem to believe I am, I was strictly making a reference to what you were saying about how the acceptance of dogfighting has changed.

While we're on the subject, though... ever been to the Holocaust museum in DC? Thats pretty horrific as well.

Yea, I've been to both. Crazy to see the atrocities of mankind. Fredericksburg has the National Slavery Museum opening in '08...so that'll definitely be something worth checking out.

We can agree to disagree...although I now have a better understanding of what you mean (I didn't at the time I first read it).

There's a lot of "Vick is scum" because everyone knows who Michael Vick is. Public figures draw more scorn because you can put a name and a face to the atrocity much easier. It's sad because of the dogs, it brings up the issue of animal rights, its newsworthy because its Vick (a celebrity), and its not over race unless you - as an individual - choose to make it about race.

I agree about Vick being the public's personification of a dogfighter. I don't think you can necessarily minimize the effect of his race quite yet either. I've heard this blamed on hip-hop already :doh: .

Bottomline is he doesn't value dogs the way you or I do. I don't think he should be the posterboy, nor the most extreme case to satisfy people's thirst for blood.

[zoony]

Perhaps it never occured to you that I hold humans to a much higher standard of conduct than most animals? Is that a symptom of dementia?

ladies and gentlemen, exhibit A.

....

[Enter Apotheosis]

I agree about Vick being the public's personification of a dogfighter. I don't think you can necessarily minimize the effect of his race quite yet either. I've heard this blamed on hip-hop already :doh: .

Bottomline is he doesn't value dogs the way you or I do. I don't think he should be the posterboy, nor the most extreme case to satisfy people's thirst for blood.

Well, blaming hip-hop does not necessarily mean that you're laying down the race card (although I won't deny it often does seem to). After all, it's not like hip-hop has never promoted dog fighting or anything else illegal

Ultimately, its like blaming video games for violence. It's just misdirected blame of a subculture to suppress a sense of personal responsibility.

Anywho... someone is going to be the posterboy at some point, thats just the way things seem to work. You also have to consider that a big part of the reason why things have gotten this negative towards Vick specifically is because his public image was already deteriorating (water bottle incident and flipping off the fans) and his litte brother's troubles opened up the entire family to criticism.

ladies and gentlemen, exhibit A.

....

Right.

[Bang]

I agree about Vick being the public's personification of a dogfighter. I don't think you can necessarily minimize the effect of his race quite yet either. I've heard this blamed on hip-hop already :doh: .

Bottomline is he doesn't value dogs the way you or I do. I don't think he should be the posterboy, nor the most extreme case to satisfy people's thirst for blood.

Well, he's going to be the posterboy because of his recognizable face. Hard to avoid that when you're as famous as he is. PETA will use him til he dies, probably regardless of his guilt or innocence.

I would hope we could agree that we can minimize the effect of those who carry the view of race.. I know there's some Jethro's out there who say,

"yup, serves his black ass right,, i always done knowed he weren't no good."

But we should work to minimize Jethro's impact. He and his ilk are minorities these days.

If we don't give Jethro the floor, he can't stir it up.

~Bang

[megared]

Well, he's going to be the posterboy because of his recognizable face. Hard to avoid that when you're as famous as he is.

I would hope we could agree that we can minimize the effect of those who carry the view of race.. I know there's some Jethro's out there who say,

"yup, serves his black ass right,, i always done knowed he weren't no good."

But we should work to minimize Jethro's impact. He and his ilk are minorities these days.

If we don't give Jethro the floor, he can't stir it up.

~Bang

I agree.

[rincewind]

That's where your emotions are not actually allowing you to talk about this. You have it wrong... I'm not trying to justify anything. Didn't I make myself clear? His actions were wrong.

I'm simply pointing out the idiocy of the current laws on the books. You are hellbent about making the argument about everything other than that.

.......

EXACTLY!

Honestly... I think a lot of folks start to get uncomfortable when they follow the logic, hence the emotions in this thread.

Actually, I said I hate hunting also. Two things - first, my point was hunting can serve a purpose. Dog fighting has none, and please don't say entertainment. Second, I think vegatarianism is a wonderful thing, but I lack the will power to become one. Is this hypocritical of me? Maybe, but at least I don't carry that hypocrisy far enough to say I would never eat humans if need be...

[Todd Packer]

what im saying is that a dog is a living, breathing creature, just like you and me, so why should its life be valued so low that we can abuse them, or make them abuse each other, thats just not right..... and yes, i have a major interest in this case because i have personaly been affected by dog fighting.....a memebr of my family was attacked while walking their dog, and she had several major bite marks on her and had a finger bit off