ESPN.com: A History of Mistrust (Vick related)

[StillUnknown]

OK so we actually have someone defending Vicks alleged actions???? :doh:

you left out that minor detail

[rincewind]

you left out that minor detail

It is minor since megared seems to defending the actual action and not Mike Vick.

[megared]

I would contend that most of us in this life are forced to work in order to survive. We just have the luxury of choosing how we it is that we work.

Well I don't think slaves were telling slavemasters that they wouldn't work in the field because the conditions were bad...or that the Johnson plantation across the field looks like a better place. Or how about they're gonna take the weekend off?

Dog fighting was never accepted by everyone, either.

The gist of what I was saying was that noone was in cahoots when a MAJOR , national dogfighting ring got busted in Ohio before the laws were changed. The FEDs used PETA, and other organizations to build sentiment to extend their authority. I don't see how dogfighting was basically something noone cared about, but once Vick does it he's an abominable human being.

The Civil War was not nearly as much about slavery as people often think it was. Either way, I fail to see what you're getting at here.

That dogfighting and slavery have about as much in common as bullets & flowers.

This obviously isn't the only issue I take a level of concern with, it is one of many. :2cents:

Well I applaud you then.

[zoony]

While megared is incorrect in saying that Vick is innocent because the law itself is unjust... I think he does bring up some good points. (Vick is guilty of breaking the law. If you want to argue the merits of that law, then that is a seperate argument entirely)

But while we're on that subject...

No matter how dispicable we might find dog-fighting, I think putting someone in jail for 6 years because of it is a classic case of how ****ed-up this nations priorities can be.

Hell... anyone who has seen people hunt with dogs knows that dogs get killed all the time. Wild boar, bears, etc. Should these hunters be locked up for 6 years?

I've also known people who use hounds for flushing dear... and I've heard plenty of stories of hunters shooting an overly-aggressive hound dead on the spot. (hounds that actually attack the deer instead of flushing it.)

Now... before the PETA clowns come in and feign offense... let me make it clear that I certainly don't condone these actions. I like dogs, they're great. I certainly would never try and hurt one, nor would I want to see one get hurt.

That said... THEY'RE ANIMALS. ANIMALS. Let me say it again. ANIMALS.

They are not people. While most pet owners try to ascribe human characteristics to their pets, and dress them up, or include them as members of the family, or love their dogs more than they love their own children... the fact remains. They are animals. Bred and evolved with a pack mentality that makes them ideal pets, even capable of fooling owners into thinking they're somehow human.

And Enter Apothesis... no offense... but your statement earlier in this thread is exactly what I'm talking about. "I respect animals more than most humans I meet". That is exactly the kind of dimentia that has led to these asinine laws being put on the books.

People would step over a person covered in their own excrament begging for change in order to pick up a stray dog and try to find its owner. This country often times has some seriously misplaced priorities.

[StillUnknown]

It is minor since megared seems to defending the actual action and not Mike Vick.

from what i've read, the reason he may appear to be defending the action is a vaild one. Not necessarily that i agree with him on that particular point, but its not absurd when its based on the reasons he gave.:2cents:

[rincewind]

My god, if one more person compares the brutality of dog fighting to hunting, I'm going to lose it. If you can't see that they're not on the same level, I don't know what the **** is wrong with you. It's like saying 'I haven't eaten in 12 hours, now I know what someone in Ethopia feels like.'

edit - and I ****ing hate hunting.

[StillUnknown]

My god, if one more person compares the brutality of dog fighting to hunting, I'm going to lose it. If you can't see that they're not on the same level, I don't know what the **** is wrong with you. It's like saying 'I haven't eaten in 12 hours, now I know what someone in Ethopia feels like.'

edit - and I ****ing hate hunting.

so by this logic, it would be acceptable to hunt dogs akin to how people hunt deers and other game?

[portisizzle]

you left out that minor detail

Please don't misquote me again.

Public opinion is already out on this chump. Regarless of what the court says. He is damaged goods and I say good.

Whoever here is defending his actions is stooping very low IMO.

[AdamB]

If you don't want dogfights get rid of Pits. This isn't a widespread issue with MANY different species of dogs.

You eliminate dogfighting rings by eliminating dog fighters. If you just eliminate the breeds being used (including breeds never designed for dog fighting), it would just mean dog fighters would have to make up a new breed...it is not all that difficult.

[StillUnknown]

Please don't misquote me again.

Public opinion is already out on this chump. Regarless of what the court says. He is damaged goods and I say good.

Whoever here is defending his actions is stooping very low IMO.

the public is not aware of all the facts of the case, only the prosecution has spoken in the form of the indictment.

a verdict trumps public opinion.:2cents:

[zoony]

My god, if one more person compares the brutality of dog fighting to hunting, I'm going to lose it. If you can't see that they're not on the same level, I don't know what the **** is wrong with you. It's like saying 'I haven't eaten in 12 hours, now I know what someone in Ethopia feels like.'

edit - and I ****ing hate hunting.

What's the difference? I don't think you're even considering the argument if you feel that way.

Rhodesian Ridgebacks were bred to hunt lions. Irish Wolfhounds were bred to hunt wolves. Border terriers, foxes. And it is not uncommon for a pack of hounds to go after wild boar.

So by training these dogs to hunt certain pray, then unleashing them to go out and hunt, the hunter is putting that dog at risk. You can bet your ass that there were several lions that got the better of a RR over the centuries. Same with hounds.

Guess what Pit-Bulls and Staffordshires were bred to hunt? Other dogs. Do you see where it is going?

It's a very simple and logical comparison.

[portisizzle]

While megared is incorrect in saying that Vick is innocent because the law itself is unjust... I think he does bring up some good points. (Vick is guilty of breaking the law. If you want to argue the merits of that law, then that is a seperate argument entirely)

But while we're on that subject...

No matter how dispicable we might find dog-fighting, I think putting someone in jail for 6 years because of it is a classic case of how ****ed-up this nations priorities can be.

Hell... anyone who has seen people hunt with dogs knows that dogs get killed all the time. Wild boar, bears, etc. Should these hunters be locked up for 6 years?

I've also known people who use hounds for flushing dear... and I've heard plenty of stories of hunters shooting an overly-aggressive hound dead on the spot. (hounds that actually attack the deer instead of flushing it.)

Now... before the PETA clowns come in and feign offense... let me make it clear that I certainly don't condone these actions. I like dogs, they're great. I certainly would never try and hurt one, nor would I want to see one get hurt.

That said... THEY'RE ANIMALS. ANIMALS. Let me say it again. ANIMALS.

They are not people. While most pet owners try to ascribe human characteristics to their pets, and dress them up, or include them as members of the family, or love their dogs more than they love their own children... the fact remains. They are animals. Bred and evolved with a pack mentality that makes them ideal pets, even capable of fooling owners into thinking they're somehow human.

And Enter Apothesis... no offense... but your statement earlier in this thread is exactly what I'm talking about. "I respect animals more than most humans I meet". That is exactly the kind of dimentia that has led to these asinine laws being put on the books.

People would step over a person covered in their own excrament begging for change in order to pick up a stray dog and try to find its owner. This country often times has some seriously misplaced priorities.

There is a distinct difference between accidentally shooting an animal and acting with malice and intent in the ravaging of a dog in pit fighting.

It is the same logical difference between someone getting charged with manslaughter in a driving accident and premeditated first degree murder.

The intent the Vick and his group was IMO inhuman and immoral. This type of person does not have a place in a civilized society.

[portisizzle]

the public is not aware of all the facts of the case, only the prosecution has spoken in the form of the indictment.

a verdict trumps public opinion.:2cents:

No it does not. If it did O.J. would be rollin'.

[Enter Apotheosis]

Well I don't think slaves were telling slavemasters that they wouldn't work in the field because the conditions were bad...or that the Johnson plantation across the field looks like a better place. Or how about they're gonna take the weekend off?

And? You have a bad habit of never directly countering my points. Re-read what I said, it doesn't contradict with what you just said.

The gist of what I was saying was that noone was in cahoots when a MAJOR , national dogfighting ring got busted in Ohio before the laws were changed. The FEDs used PETA, and other organizations to build sentiment to extend their authority. I don't see how dogfighting was basically something noone cared about, but once Vick does it he's an abominable human being.

So you insist that no one gave a damn about dogfighting until Ron Mexico came along? Thats a pretty big statement to make. Most people I know certainly don't think about dogfighting on a regular basis as often as they have lately with this getting so much airtime, but that has absolutely no bearing on the fact that they consider it an absolutely abhorrent practice.

On this very board we've discussed dog fighting quite a bit before any of this started and I'd say an overwhelming majority of people are very much against dog fighting.

That dogfighting and slavery have about as much in common as bullets & flowers.

I can see that you've never been big on literary devices. Comparing two things does not imply equality, it implies similarity.

[Todd Packer]

the dogs vick used in his dog fighting ring were bred specifically to fight, if they werent mean enough, they were killed, by electrocutuion, shooting, hanging, beating, drowned etc... and most of the female dogs were tied to whats called a "rape stand" and had all those tihngs done to them.... and its pieces of crap like megared that have no problem with it.... i wish someone would do one of those to you, see how you feel, then you would probably have some sympathy for he innocent dogs being exploited in dogfighting

[StillUnknown]

No it does not. If it did O.J. would be rollin'.

predictable response

[zoony]

There is a distinct difference between accidentally shooting an animal and acting with malice and intent in the ravaging of a dog in pit fighting.

It is the same logical difference between someone getting charged with manslaughter in a driving accident and premeditated first degree murder.

The intent the Vick and his group was IMO inhuman and immoral. This type of person does not have a place in a civilized society.

In almost every U.S. State (lawyers correct me if I'm wrong)... if you are out walking your dog, I can swerve with my car and run over it.

Know what your civil recourse would be? The cost of the dog. That's it. No punative damages whatsoever.

Now criminally, I might face a wreckless driving charge, etc. Or if I came on your property I might be charged with trespassing. But there is no recourse whatsoever with regard to your dog.

And believe me, those hunters I was referencing in that post had every intention in the world of shooting those dogs (the ones that were too aggressive to be good deer hounds). Should they be put in jail too?

[portisizzle]

predictable response

Predictable because it is right or predictable because he is black like Vick and I am white and racist?

[portisizzle]

In almost every U.S. State (lawyers correct me if I'm wrong)... if you are out walking your dog, I can swerve with my car and run over it.

Know what your civil recourse would be? The cost of the dog. That's it. No punative damages whatsoever.

Now criminally, I might face a wreckless driving charge, etc. Or if I came on your property I might be charged with trespassing. But there is no recourse whatsoever with regard to your dog.

And believe me, those hunters I was referencing in that post had every intention in the world of shooting those dogs (the ones that were too aggressive to be good deer hounds). Should they be put in jail too?

I was not making a legal comparison. I was making a moral comparison.

[AdamB]

In almost every U.S. State (lawyers correct me if I'm wrong)... if you are out walking your dog, I can swerve with my car and run over it.

Know what your civil recourse would be? The cost of the dog. That's it. No punative damages whatsoever.

Now criminally, I might face a wreckless driving charge, etc. Or if I came on your property I might be charged with trespassing. But there is no recourse whatsoever with regard to your dog.

I am not 100% sure, but I think you are mostly right from a civil standpoint (think it would depend on the judges how far it would get), but criminally, if they can prove that you intended to injure or kill the dog with your car without provocation, you would/could face animal cruelty charges, which is a felony in 43 states and D.C.

[megared]

And? You have a bad habit of never directly countering my points. Re-read what I said, it doesn't contradict with what you just said.

It was continuing on the crazy parallel you made...Somehow when I mention a slave 'working'...you said "I am forced to work everyday as well"...you seem to make terrible comparisons...all that involve slavery. B-More has a great museum if you'd like to educate yourself on the atrocities (not being sarcastic). I don't think after stepping foot there, that you'd compare anything in your life (I don't as a black man) to anything they were subject to.

So you insist that no one gave a damn about dogfighting until Ron Mexico came along? Thats a pretty big statement to make. Most people I know certainly don't think about dogfighting on a regular basis as often as they have lately with this getting so much airtime, but that has absolutely no bearing on the fact that they consider it an absolutely abhorrent practice.

On this very board we've discussed dog fighting quite a bit before any of this started and I'd say an overwhelming majority of people are very much against dog fighting.

I wouldn't say that noone cared...but that it was a crime = to any others. You would think dog abuse is pedophilia for all these strong emotions it illicits. And I ask:

How much of this is truly over dogs?

How much of this is over animal rights?

How much of this is over Vick?

How much of this is over Vick's race?

Those are all questions that are different for each individual casting judgement.

Things like "Vick should be locked up with the scum that he is", "There's no place for Vick in society", I didn't hear/see this passion a few months ago. Again I ask why for Vick? If anyone has a chance to be scared straight it's someone that isn't doing it for financial gain, and as a hobby. It definitely isn't even a sizable fraction of his income.

I can see that you've never been big on literary devices. Comparing two things does not imply equality, it implies similarity.

I still fail to see any similarity between dogfighting & slavery. Dogfighting & slavery...don't even belong in the same sentence.

[Enter Apotheosis]

No matter how dispicable we might find dog-fighting, I think putting someone in jail for 6 years because of it is a classic case of how ****ed-up this nations priorities can be.

I don't know, six years seems rather lax to me. I don't necessarily believe in charging someone with the equivalent of involuntary manslaughter for the accidental death of a pet, but I don't think that the death of dozens of animals should be taken as lightly as it often is.

And Enter Apothesis... no offense... but your statement earlier in this thread is exactly what I'm talking about. "I respect animals more than most humans I meet". That is exactly the kind of dimentia that has led to these asinine laws being put on the books.

Plenty of offense taken. Perhaps it never occured to you that I hold humans to a much higher standard of conduct than most animals? Is that a symptom of dementia?

I feel like I should have addressed more of your post, zoony, but it seemed too much like an ill-conceived rant for me to really be able to figure out how to go about it.

[megared]

the dogs vick used in his dog fighting ring were bred specifically to fight, if they werent mean enough, they were killed, by electrocutuion, shooting, hanging, beating, drowned etc... and most of the female dogs were tied to whats called a "rape stand" and had all those tihngs done to them.... and its pieces of crap like megared that have no problem with it.... i wish someone would do one of those to you, see how you feel, then you would probably have some sympathy for he innocent dogs being exploited in dogfighting

Hmmmmmm because dogs = humans right?

Do you know rapestands are a fixture at places where animals are bred? Well, surprise, surprise.

Ever heard of culling before?

[DCsportsfan53]

To zoony's point, I think in general in this country we have an unhealhty obsession with morality and punishment. It's like we, as a culture, just enjoy punishing people, enjoy seeing people get locked up. I really hate it.

[rincewind]

What's the difference? I don't think you're even considering the argument if you feel that way.

Rhodesian Ridgebacks were bred to hunt lions. Irish Wolfhounds were bred to hunt wolves. Border terriers, foxes. And it is not uncommon for a pack of hounds to go after wild boar.

So by training these dogs to hunt certain pray, then unleashing them to go out and hunt, the hunter is putting that dog at risk. You can bet your ass that there were several lions that got the better of a RR over the centuries. Same with hounds.

Guess what Pit-Bulls and Staffordshires were bred to hunt? Other dogs. Do you see where it is going?

It's a very simple and logical comparison.

Tell you what. Next time you eat a nice juicy Pit Bull steak or slip on a Staffordshire fur coat, I'll consider buying the bull ****. Until then, there is NO justification for dog fighting.