Southern Methodist University speaks out against Intelligent Design

[Henry]

It wasn't intended to convince. I was merely publicly absolving myself from any implication of guilt. :2cents:

Oh. In that case I absolve you and all Christians from the obligation of telling me what to do.

[70th Week]

No, I don't think you did.

sorry, Om. check the batteries in your sarcastic meter, I think they're low.

[Om]

sorry, Om. check the batteries in your sarcastic meter, I think they're low.

Perhaps, lemme check ...

Nope. Fully charged, thanks.

As are the ones in my OSESD (Oh **** Emergency Sidestep Detector).

[70th Week]

Perhaps, lemme check ...

Nope. Fully charged, thanks.

As are the ones in my OSESD (Oh **** Emergency Sidestep Detector).

hold on, slap! slap! slap! there we go.

just got my FRSODMM (fence riding, scared of decision making meter) back on line.

[Om]

Easily trumped, as any thinking person knows, by a functioning NTIDNMSSTBIWTOOTNWWJD?BPGR (No Thanks I Don't Need My Soul Saved Today But I Will Take One Of Those Nifty WWJD? Bookmark Parting Gift Recordings).

[70th Week]

Easily trumped, as any thinking person knows, by a functioning NTIDNMSSTBIWTOOTNWWJD?BPGR (No Thanks I Don't Need My Soul Saved Today But I Will Take One Of Those Nifty WWJD? Bookmark Parting Gift Recordings).

what else can I say? :thud: :laugh:

[Sisyphus]

Easily trumped, as any thinking person knows, by a functioning NTIDNMSSTBIWTOOTNWWJD?BPGR (No Thanks I Don't Need My Soul Saved Today But I Will Take One Of Those Nifty WWJD? Bookmark Parting Gift Recordings).

If you're looking for a gift, the fine folks at Landover Baptist have many treasures to choose from.

http://www.cafepress.com/landoverbaptist

[PeterMP]

And all I can do is conclude that, for whatever reason, you're simply not going to even acknowledge the central point, much less address it.

Is your central point NOT that believing in God takes a leap of faith? Certainly, that is what I got out of your last message. If that is your central point, then I agree, and I can't really say anything else. There are books out there written for and against God. I doubt that I can say anything original that is not in those books that is likely to result in you changing your mind. If you want somebody to try and change your mind, go and read some of them.

If that isn't your central point, then I really don't understand.

Again, that's because only one leap demands your soul. The price for that demand (for me anyway) is a smaller leap.

Actually, the price for my soul is no leap at all.

Well, then you are going to never believe and again there is nothing I can do about it, and I am not going to try. I'm not here to try and convert you so if that is what you are looking for you out of luck. I have better things to do w/ my time.

[Om]

Is your central point NOT that believing in God takes a leap of faith? Certainly, that is what I got out of your last message. If that is your central point, then I agree, and I can't really say anything else. There are books out there written for and against God. I doubt that I can say anything original that is not in those books that is likely to result in you changing your mind. If you want somebody to try and change your mind, go and read some of them.

If that isn't your central point, then I really don't understand.

I'm interested in why one would choose to make that leap.

[dfitzo53]

Om said he didn't feel he had to make a decision and I refuted that point. I wasn't trying to push any religion, just a decision.

Probably a semantic point, but you didn't so much refute it as disagree with it.

[70th Week]

Probably a semantic point, but you didn't so much refute it as disagree with it.

you're correct, wrong word.

[Henry]

Well, then you are going to never believe and again there is nothing I can do about it, and I am not going to try. I'm not here to try and convert you so if that is what you are looking for you out of luck. I have better things to do w/ my time.

Well, thanks then.

No, I wasn't suggesting you were. I was attempting to distinguish the difference between believing Christ was the son of God and believing the theory of evolution.

[PeterMP]

I'm interested in why one would choose to make that leap.

I believe, Om because of my life experiences, and I can't give those to you.

I can't make you understand the peace my father, a recovering alcoholic, has found in believing in God, and how he quitely, but consistently professes his faith and the importance of his faith in his recovery, and the effect that has had on me.

I can't give you the feeling that I got when I was 19 and driving home late at night after a working till 1 am in a restaruant, and then going to a party, when I missed a head on collision on a dark country road w/ a big pick-up truck because I believe God DIRECTLY acted to prevent the accident, and I believe that is the ONLY logical collusion.

I can't make you understand the feeling I got after arriving home safely in DE after a night in NYC w/ four other people in my car when I was in grad. school even though I couldn't remember most of the trip down the NJ turnpike.

I can't make you understand the feeling of falling in love w/ an unbelievably bueatiful and sexy woman, AND having her falling in love w/ me even though I have always been a bit of a loner, shy, and socially awkward.

I can't make you understand the love I now feel for my daughter, and how it is only logical to me that love comes from something beyond my human ability and knowledge.

I can't give you the peace I feel when I pray, and I can't give you the peace I feel when my prayes come true, like my wife both finding jobs that we wanted in science where we could afford to buy a home despite how hard everybody says it is to even find a job for one person w/ a Chemistry PhD.

I can't give you these things. I wish I could, but I can't.

[dfitzo53]

I can't give you the feeling that I got when I was 19 and driving home late at night after a working till 1 am in a restaruant, and then going to a party, when I missed a head on collision on a dark country road w/ a big pick-up truck because I believe God DIRECTLY acted to prevent the accident, and I believe that is the ONLY logical collusion.

I appreciate everything you've said. Most of us have those feelings from time to time. Personally, I find the idea that God would single me out in that manner suspect. That isn't to say that I haven't been blessed. On the contrary I feel extremely fortunate. Not only have I grown up in one of the best places in the world, in a loving, economically prosperous family, but I have recently found that same loving bond with a beautiful woman of which you speak so highly.

However, I have a hard time accepting that God would save you, or me, or anyone else through direct intervention and not save the innocent family who gets hit by the drunk driver, for example. Especially when the drunk driver survives.

I'm not saying it can't happen, but it's very, very difficult for me to imagine.

[PeterMP]

I'm not saying it can't happen, but it's very, very difficult for me to imagine.

It is difficult, and I don't even pretend to understand, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It is difficult for my daughter to understand why she can't eat a Cheerio that has been on floor over night (from a previous post of mine).

[Om]

I believe, Om because of my life experiences, and I can't give those to you.

I can't make you understand the peace my father, a recovering alcoholic, has found in believing in God, and how he quitely, but consistently professes his faith and the importance of his faith in his recovery, and the effect that has had on me.

I can't give you the feeling that I got when I was 19 and driving home late at night after a working till 1 am in a restaruant, and then going to a party, when I missed a head on collision on a dark country road w/ a big pick-up truck because I believe God DIRECTLY acted to prevent the accident, and I believe that is the ONLY logical collusion.

I can't make you understand the feeling I got after arriving home safely in DE after a night in NYC w/ four other people in my car when I was in grad. school even though I couldn't remember most of the trip down the NJ turnpike.

I can't make you understand the feeling of falling in love w/ an unbelievably bueatiful and sexy woman, AND having her falling in love w/ me even though I have always been a bit of a loner, shy, and socially awkward.

I can't make you understand the love I now feel for my daughter, and how it is only logical to me that love comes from something beyond my human ability and knowledge.

I can't give you the peace I feel when I pray, and I can't give you the peace I feel when my prayes come true, like my wife both finding jobs that we wanted in science where we could afford to buy a home despite how hard everybody says it is to even find a job for one person w/ a Chemistry PhD.

I can't give you these things. I wish I could, but I can't.

That's both personal and poetic, and I thank you for sharing it.

But you don't have to give me those things. Because with the exception of the prayer part, I have them too. I'm a little surprised at the subtle inference that such depth of feeling is unique to only one of us.

I seems to me the only real difference between us is I haven't chosen to infer from the most intense moments and feelings of my life that a man named Christ who lived 2000 years ago was a supernatural being who rose from the dead.

[Sisyphus]

I seems to me the only real difference between us is I haven't chosen to infer from the most intense moments and feelings of my life that a man named Christ who lived 2000 years ago was a supernatural being who rose from the dead.

Or Allah, Thor, Zeus, etc., etc.

[PeterMP]

That's both personal and poetic, and I thank you for sharing it.

But you don't have to give me those things. Because with the exception of the prayer part, I have them too. I'm a little surprised at the subtle inference that such depth of feeling is unique to only one of us.

I seems to me the only real difference between us is I haven't chosen to infer from the most intense moments and feelings of my life that a man named Christ who lived 2000 years ago was a supernatural being who rose from the dead.

Like I said, I can't give them to you, and I can't make you believe, and nothing I can say is likely to have any more affect than anything in a book you could pull off a library shelf.

That's why I don't try to convert people. You asked. I answered.

[Om]

Like I said, I can't give them to you, and I can't make you believe, and nothing I can say is likely to have any more affect than anything in a book you could pull off a library shelf.

That's why I don't try to convert people. You asked. I answered.

And like I said, you don't need to give them to me, I am neither looking to be convinced of anything or trying to convince you of anything, and I will simply continue to ask these questions until such time as someone answers in a way that satisfies my intellectual curiousity or I conclude that there simply is no such answer to be had.

[Jumbo]

Wow. It's still a'happening. Nice to see H show up.

This is all I have time for

PeterMP--Again, I would come back to you are asking us, that really don't have the ability to understand the power of God, to understand his reasoning.

Well, Peter, to not ask, then, is to simply listen to what you have to say and remain silent with my questions. I guess another option would be to only ask questions that address those areas of God's power where you do understand his reasoning, if such exist. I could ask for a list.

I think many people who don't believe in God attempt to put his actions into terms that they can think of.

And people who believe in him don’t? Or, at least, they do as long as it’s convenient? But that's a fairly interesting cognition on several levels. How does anyone put any being’s actions into terms other than those they can think of?

How do you decide whether it’s just beyond your understanding, or if it’s beyond everybody’s? If it’s beyond your understanding, how could you tell if someone has a greater capacity to understand than you and sees something, whether flaw or support, that you don’t? Because someone else told you “this is right no matter what anyone else says so when you get to that point, you just do this..."? ("you" not meaning you persoanlly)

If you do that, of course you are going to conclude that he is illogical; just as my daughter thinks my rules for eating Cheerios are illogical.

Well, I don’t know if she is viewing you as illogical or arbitrary but that would matter in an all-powerful God. But even given early child developmental stages and their limitations on understanding, she would understand later (whether she agreed or disagreed). But you and I are adults now, without that barrier. I understand your Cheerio’s reasoning perfectly, so maybe it isn’t a good example, unless your intent was to apply the “appeal to authority” argument.

You are projecting your human concepts on God.

Ironically, my conclusion, and the comment I made that you’re responding to, is that much of the Christian religion is possibly based on men projecting their human concepts on what God would be like and “making it so.” Unless you believe you have talked to God directly, how do you accept God and his word unless its through human concepts prompted by reading words in the human language communicated from human beings using their human concepts? Why wouldn't those same devices be copacetic for questioning what you have trouble accepting?

Even assuming the Bible is 100% Divinely Inspired (95%? 80%? And NT only I guess, maybe 50% for OT, I don’t know), when something arises that you can’t explain reasonably is it just apply the old “it’s beyond your understanding” rule? We were doing fine discussing God with human concepts until certain questions or views arose.

Personally, I think a more appropriate response is "I don't have the answers to your questions, I just accept that matter on faith." That works better for me than "We know it's true in human, but we can't explain why in human."

I have no issue with faith, unless it's used to harm me or mine.

This makes as much sense as an ant (if he could) projecting his concepts onto you. Or in the example of my daughter, she certainly seems to find my rules about what Cheerios she can eat arbitrary, but that is because she cannot grasp my logic.

Again, not an analogy I find very functional. Interstingly, others have written about a Supreme Being who is to us as we are to ants and the relationship resulting, while maybe congruent with a lot of what actually goes on in this world, is not really a pretty one when carried out.

But I have read we are made in his image, he made Jesus to live as human, he is a Being of Love for his children, and gets angry (sometimes real angry). These are all human concepts the Bible uses, and I have no problem understanding them. Same with the concept that He has given us “free will” but has let it be known it comes with a rather serious penalty for using it to make the “wrong decisions” about what you believe spiritually.

Which makes it a question of how "free" the free will is, but some souls use it anyway, and that’s another matter. Now all those things are human concepts used in the Bible that most of us understand and can believe or disbelieve, agree or disagree. I think human concepts and human language are really what we are stuck with if there is going to be integrity at the discussion level.

One last thing about your analogy with your daughter: it’s also got a taste of “don’t worry your little head about it”, but my head isn’t little and this stuff really matters to me.

I mean realistically if you are capable of all things who know what you would find reasonable or logical.

And if I am as such, who knows what would really be my motives or my nature, let alone the details. But in this case, we have a whole bunch of people convinced they have those answers until they don’t have the answers and then it's often fall back to traditional, age-old, off-putting techniques for many (and not aimed at ypou personally).

In closing, it is extraordinarily self-centered to assume that someone not accepting all of the tenets of the Christian religion, or everything written (even in the NT) of the Bible, equals having made no decisions about their spiritual journey. In fact, the logical implication is more towards the other end of that spectrum.

BTW, techboy, you know I have a high opinion of you, and I know your argument about what you see as solid logical proof of Jesus’ Divinity, and I have seen similar elsewhere before you became a member. I will sometime explain how that also falls short for some people who even so still keep an open mind. I have often thought about doing it, but have never got around to it. I'm probably going to take a break for awhile though, so consider this a teaser. :laugh:

My best wishes to everyone who has participated to date. I like faith, science, and people who try to do the right thing with both. Though sometimes I feel irritated by certain behaviors and attitudes, and I’m sure others identify, I try to come back to a position of respect whenever possible. In this thread it’s been fairly easy.

[PeterMP]

And like I said, you don't need to give them to me, I am neither looking to be convinced of anything or trying to convince you of anything, and I will simply continue to ask these questions until such time as someone answers in a way that satisfies my intellectual curiousity or I conclude that there simply is no such answer to be had.

Well, good luck.

[Om]

Well, good luck.

Thanks, you too.

And I mean that every bit as sincerely as you did.

[70th Week]

I'm probably going to take a break for awhile though, so consider this a teaser. :laugh:

Jumbo, you punk, you owe me a response.

(but it was so many pages ago I forgot what it was about. :laugh: )

[Jumbo]

Jumbo, you punk, you owe me a response.

(but it was so many pages ago I forgot what it was about. :laugh: )

Dang, gpg, you are right. And I've forgotten too. I'm gone till late tonight, but I will try. Don't get too exited, though. It would probably be relatively good-natured. I seem to have left my hardass at work. :laugh:

[70th Week]

Dang, gpg, you are right. And I've forgotten too. I'm gone till late tonight, but I will try. Don't get too exited, though. It would probably be relatively good-natured. I seem to have left my hardass at work. :laugh:

Forget about it. :moon: