The Jeff Garcia Lesson

[Oldfan]

I believe that all football players are 'system players.' You won't see them at their best until they are surrounded by good, well-coached talent in a system that fits them. Individual statistics are misleading more often than not.

Jeff Garcia is not the same player at Philadelphia that he was at Detroit. Jake Plummer's career got a boost when he left the Cards and went to the Broncos. Clinton Portis saw his stats drop sharply when he left the Broncos.

In the NFL, the teams that build the best rosters will be bargain hunters. They will try to find underrated players in the draft, free agency and in trades. I think this requires a contrarian strategy: you look for players off losing teams, or lackluster offensive or defensive units, particularly those that are poorly coached.

I think you avoid the 'beasts' who get hyped beyond reason and you trash the statistics. Forget the guy at the combine who weighs 300 and runs the 40 in 4.1. Can he play football... is the question you want answered. You watch lots of film on losing teams and look for solid performers: guys who can block, tackle, run pass routes, cover receivers, catch the football or throw it accurately.

[Om]

I think this requires a contrarian strategy: you look for players off losing teams, or lackluster offensive or defensive units, particularly those that are poorly coached.

Like Brandon Lloyd and Andre Carter?

[kerruptt]

Like Brandon Lloyd and Andre Carter?

Dont confuse poorly coached with lack of motivation, passion and talent, at least in the case of Lloyd.

[Oldfan]

Like Brandon Lloyd and Andre Carter?

More like Marcus Washington and Cornelius Griffin.

[da#1skinsfan]

Dont confuse poorly coached with lack of motivation, passion and talent, at least in the case of Lloyd.

Here we go again....

:doh: :doh: :doh: :doh:

[Om]

Lloyd's an easy and convenient target right now. He does seem a bit of a diva, and his productivity has been pretty much nil. But it's silly to dismiss him and his future on this team based on THIS year's Redskins passing game, which has been dysfunctional all year on practically every level.

Brandon will have a full offseason to work with Campbell and the other WR's to get on the same page and find a rhythm. We'll get a far better gauge next year about what kind of Redskin Lloyd will prove out to be. His start hasn't been real pretty, no, but neither was Carter's.

[Oldfan]

If I didn't make this obvious point well enough in the original post... no strategy will work unless you have people who can spot talent and bring it in at bargain prices.

We could use a GM who is stingy with both draft picks and cap dollars.

[Bang]

The lesson learned from Garcia is that he has ALWAYS been good, and NO one can succeed in Cleveland or Detroit.

Garcia is a "system QB", yes, but he's also one of the scrappiest players in the league.. he's got a lot of fire and a tremendous amount of heart to go along with his knowledge of that offense. You can't knock that guy off his post. You can hit him, bust him, blast him, but you can't crush his spirit.

Of course, it certainly doesn't hurt that the offense the Eagles run is the exact same offense he's been running his entire NFL career (except in Cleveland).

I make fun of Jeff all the time in my cartoons, but in reality I'm a huge fan of his, and always have been. He's one hell of an exciting player to watch.

I think if anything is learned from this.. if you're going shopping for veteran backups, get one that knows your system as if he wrote it himself.

Lloyd doesn't compare... a receiver is only as good as his QB.. granted, he's not had a great year in his own right.. dropped a few perfect passes, but overall when it comes to our receivers this year, I'm more than willing to give them a pass based on how hampered our passing game was for over half the season with rag-arm Brunell in there, and now a young QB in his first few starts.

I also agree with the sentiment that we need better scouts and talent evaluators.

~Bang

[Om]

If I didn't make this obvious point well enough in the original post... no strategy will work unless you have people who can spot talent and bring it in at bargain prices.

We could use a GM who is stingy with both draft picks and cap dollars.

I'm on board with the idea of adding a proven personnel guy. I don't care if they call him "GM" or not, but I'm thinking Gibbs will give serious consideration to bringing in another set of qualified eyes.

And yes, I would agree that it would be preferable if that person could "spot talent," and maybe even work with Snyder on the "bargain prices" thing. Hard to argue that those aren't desirable things. In fact, I'm not sure anyone HAS argued against it.

So why are we having this discussion exactly?

[Oldfan]

The lesson learned from Garcia is that he has ALWAYS been good, and NO one can succeed in Cleveland or Detroit.

Of course the talent was always there. But, if you saw it, you are one of the very few people in the country. In contrast, everyone can see Tom Brady's talent because he was lucky enough to be drafted by the Patriots.

[Bang]

Of course the talent was always there. But, if you saw it, you are one of the very few people in the country. In contrast, everyone can see Tom Brady's talent because he was lucky enough to be drafted by the Patriots.

People forget how good Jeff was for the 49ers.. he set passing marks there that broke records of Montana and Young.

Bill Walsh called him the best WCO quarterback he ever saw.

That says a hell of a lot.

~Bang

[Oldfan]

So why are we having this discussion exactly?

In the first post, I made an argument for a particular strategy on acquiring personnel which hasn't been discussed. As usual, these threads get sidetracked by posters who find it less taxing mentally to nitpick posts..

[chronicdesi]

I agree Jeff is a great a player. Also, with the "GM" comment, we definately need someone to come in. Gibbs has always hinted this season, mainly towards the end, that he would consider bringing in a GM if he feels it would help the team. I believe average to above average players conform to a system to get the most production. But there are the few game breakers that don't fit the mold, IE LT. There isn't one system and one team that you could put him on. Now I know that there aren't many, if any, players like LT, but the great ones find a way to break that mold. I think Portis is still in the transition of breaking that mold.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Lloyd's an easy and convenient target right now. He does seem a bit of a diva, and his productivity has been pretty much nil. But it's silly to dismiss him and his future on this team based on THIS year's Redskins passing game, which has been dysfunctional all year on practically every level.

Brandon will have a full offseason to work with Campbell and the other WR's to get on the same page and find a rhythm. We'll get a far better gauge next year about what kind of Redskin Lloyd will prove out to be. His start hasn't been real pretty, no, but neither was Carter's.

Lloyd may already be on the way out. Two articles today:

Santana Moss really needs some help. Of course, that was the case last offseason, when the Redskins spent tons of money on Lloyd and Antwaan Randle El. Lloyd has attitude issues and only 23 catches, and he lost his starting job three weeks ago _ he could very well hit the road if the Redskins can find a way to afford the salary cap hit.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl...ll/4428010.html

I am now starting to think Arch Deluxe and Lloyd could both be gone.

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/reds...ml?nav=rss_blog

[budski]

oldfan with the exception of the bargain prices haven't they done that already over the past couple of years?

[Oldfan]

oldfan with the exception of the bargain prices haven't they done that already over the past couple of years?

With the exception of the bargain prices? That question sounds like you are minimizing that factor. Because of the cap, half the battle in roster building is in signing players whose performance will likely justify their cost.

But drafts picks are like money too. We have some pretty good players on our team who cost us too much to acquire both in draft picks and salary. We cannot build a deep roster this way.

[Om]

In the first post, I made an argument for a particular strategy on acquiring personnel which hasn't been discussed. As usual, these threads get sidetracked by posters who find it less taxing mentally to nitpick posts..

You're right. We haven't discussed hiring a GM and getting better at identifying talent and then not paying them too much. How rude of me to nitpick.

[Om]

Lloyd may already be on the way out. Two articles today:

Santana Moss really needs some help. Of course' date=' that was the case last offseason, when the Redskins spent tons of money on Lloyd and Antwaan Randle El. Lloyd has attitude issues and only 23 catches, and he lost his starting job three weeks ago _ he could very well hit the road if the Redskins can find a way to afford the salary cap hit.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl...ll/4428010.html

I am now starting to think Arch Deluxe and Lloyd could both be gone.

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/reds...ml?nav=rss_blog

Could happen. With Arch I'd not be suprised at all. Man seems totally removed at this point. If he DOES stay, it'll be in the role they envisioned him for in the first place before Prioleau went down--more of a LB than a safety.

With Lloyd, I would be surprised. But that's based just on observation of his play in games, and not on the locker room stuff and what the coaches have observed from him in there and in practice all year. At this point, I'd like to think the diva stuff would matter a whole lot less to everyone if he and Campbell could find a bit of chemistry and he became an actual factor in games.

[Oldfan]

You're right. We haven't discussed hiring a GM and getting better at identifying talent and then not paying them too much. How rude of me to nitpick.

No, you nitpicked with the Carter and Lloyd post which sent this thread off on another Brandon Lloyd tangent.

But, that's okay. I was just informing you of what we were supposed to be discussing since you had forgotten.

[Om]

No, you nitpicked with the Carter and Lloyd post which sent this thread off on another Brandon Lloyd tangent.

But, that's okay. I was just informing you of what we were supposed to be discussing since you had forgotten.

If you were a little less defensive, perhaps it would occur to you that the only part of your original post I had any issue with or felt compelled to address was the one I noted in my first reply. But since you require it, I will spell it out.

You said:

I think this requires a contrarian strategy: you look for players off losing teams, or lackluster offensive or defensive units, particularly those that are poorly coached.

I responded by noting that Lloyd and Carter both fit that description. Giving you the opportunity to agree, disagree, amplify, amend or even discuss. Instead, rather than say something like, "true, but they're the only examples on our roster you can find," you figured I was nitpicking and derailing, and ignored the one point I was looking to raise. That was your choice, not mine.

But again, I've derailed this beauty enough. Your thesis that the Redskins ought to do a better job of getting better players at better prices is original and thought-provoking. I shall leave you to further engage and enlighten the unthinking mob.

[Oldfan]

Om -- If you were a little less defensive, perhaps it would occur to you that the only part of your original post I had any issue with or felt compelled to address was the one I noted in my first reply. But since you require it, I will spell it out.

You said:

I think this requires a contrarian strategy: you look for players off losing teams, or lackluster offensive or defensive units, particularly those that are poorly coached.

I responded by noting that Lloyd and Carter both fit that description. Giving you the opportunity to agree, disagree, amplify, amend or even discuss. Instead, rather than say something like, "true, but they're the only examples on our roster you can find," you figured I was nitpicking and derailing, and ignored the one point I was looking to raise. That was your choice, not mine.

I over-estimated you. I assumed you knew that any argument can be nitpicked by cherry-picking evidence to the contrary. I didn't know that you took your counter-argument argument seriously.

But again, I've derailed this beauty enough. Your thesis that the Redskins ought to do a better job of getting better players at better prices is original and thought-provoking. I shall leave you to further engage and enlighten the unthinking mob.

I hope readers will note that you had to mis-characterize the content of my first post in order to use it as a foil for your witty sarcasm.

[Om]

I over-estimated you. I assumed you knew that any argument can be nitpicked by cherry-picking evidence to the contrary. I didn't know that you took your counter-argument argument seriously.

I hope readers will note that you had to mis-characterize the content of my first post in order to use it as a foil for your witty sarcasm.

I, on the other hand, had you pretty much pegged from the start. I suspected I'd get precisely the evasive tapdance and predictable repetition without amplification that you've favored us with.

And I'm perfectly comfortable knowing your original post is still right there for all to see, and it says pretty much exactly what I have distilled from it in my wittily sarcastic way. You think the Redskins need to do a better job of uncovering talent and paying less for it. That's pretty much it.

If there's more, by all means please do amplify.

[DCsportsfan53]

Lloyd's an easy and convenient target right now. He does seem a bit of a diva, and his productivity has been pretty much nil. But it's silly to dismiss him and his future on this team based on THIS year's Redskins passing game, which has been dysfunctional all year on practically every level.

Brandon will have a full offseason to work with Campbell and the other WR's to get on the same page and find a rhythm. We'll get a far better gauge next year about what kind of Redskin Lloyd will prove out to be. His start hasn't been real pretty, no, but neither was Carter's.

I agree with this. Personally, I believe AA will be the only bust of this free agent class. Carter, well, imo, he's playing as well as any DE in the league right now (and for the last 5 weeks) and he and Betts are our best and most consistent players for that stretch.

Brandon allowed an extremely high number of missed opportunities and frustration get to him and he didn't handle it as well as he could have. That said, I still think he'll be an integral part of this offense going forward. Like Om said, our entire passing game has been dysfunctional all year, we just haven't had good QB play. I expect Lloyd to make a huge and positive impact next year. In fact, I don't believe we should touch the offense at all save for developmental depth on the line and maybe a blocking TE. Now if we can just load up on CBs and LBs we'll be alright.

[Oldfan]

Om -- And I'm perfectly comfortable knowing your original post is still right there for all to see, and it says pretty much exactly what I have distilled from it in my wittily sarcastic way. You think the Redskins need to do a better job of uncovering talent and paying less for it. That's pretty much it.

Okay that suits me. Let's let readers of Post One judge for themselves if that's all I had to say. But since your Lloyd and Carter post responded to a very specific point I made, we know already that you omitted that in your summary.

[Om]

Okay that suits me. Let's let readers of Post One judge for themselves if that's all I had to say. But since your Lloyd and Carter post responded to a very specific point I made, we know already that you omitted that in your summary.

In addition to being nitpicky and wittily sarcastic, I am also apparently thick. Can you please explain that last sentence to me?