The Jeff Garcia Lesson

[Henry]

Actually, I think Om makes a very good point.

The Redskins last offseason didn't go for splashy, big-names. They went for guys they thought would fit their schemes, regardless of how productive they were on other, poorly-coached teams. In addition to Lloyd and Carter, Archeletta and Duckett could also be added to that list. Randel El too. Guys that were mid-range players on their former teams, but under our coaching staff and our system would supposedly thrive. Unfortunately, we ran into two problems following that strategy: 1) They weren't all that great here either and 2) we paid way too much for them.

It's not that the scouting strategy is the problem. In fact, it's pretty much exactly the way you outline it, OF. It's implementation that's the problem. Which is Om's point. And it's a good one.

Basically, we need to scout better and pay less.

[budski]

Oldfan isn't that Joe Gibbs has tried to do build with his system? Character players, diamonds in the rough, but with some playmakers at the edges?

There are alot of players on this team that are not considered superstars anywhere.

And evaluating a players talent is difficult to do if he his being coached badly or are you saying the current coaches are great and can find these people?

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

To try to bring this thread back on subject, what you are advocating is a combination of the Steelers' system and the Patriots' system. Both have been successful. Both build "teams."

In terms of the cap, what the Patriots seem to do is assign a player a number. They determine the players worth and will pay that price and that price only. Sometimes it seems to backfire when they lose Deion Branch and end up with Reche Cardwell. But they win 11 games every year and will probably be in the AFC Championship game this year.

In drafting, they look for smart, versatile players who may not have a fixed position but can do several things well. And then they find a spot for him. Basically, they count on Belichik to be able to utilize his talent. (What the Skins do is let the players run the scheme. And if the players can't do it, there is no Plan .

In free agency and trades, the Pats do two things. 1. They look for versatile players that never fit in elsewhere (like Vrabel) and bring them in cheap. Or, they pull the Red Auerbach move and find problem children who are looking for a shot of redemption (Corey Dillon). Free agency is there to add the "flavor" each year. If the free agents miss, it does not upset the apple cart. If they hit, they end up with a revitalized Junior Seau. The key is, they are not reliant on free agents. Free agency is a supplement.

The Steelers are a little different. They seem to divide the draft into two parts: First and second round/rest of draft. In the first and second round, they seem to take the best player available at two or three positions of needs. They weren't focussed on a QB in 2004; in fact, Cowher apparently wanted a lineman. But Roethlisberger was ranked highest on their board and was at a "need" position. So, they got him. Same with Casey Hampton. Same with Heath Miller. Same with Santonio Holmes. They never seem to "reach" for a player.

After that, they seem to look for "types." They basically seem to design a football player and find someone who matches those characteristics. They say, we want a pass rusher who is this big and this fast and had success in college...and then they say, "Hey, Joey Porter fits the bill." Or they want a tall, athletic corner...why not Ike Taylor? They then count on the coaches to bring these guys along correctly.

They try to bring in five to six good young rookies each year so that when they inevitably lose four free agents, there is someone behind them. Brent Kiesel goes from seventh-rounder to starter in three easy steps.

They are small players in free agency, but - again - it's always with a purpose. They seem to look for one mid-level guy who can start each year. Hartings, Farrior, Clark, Wilson. Their few free agent signings seem to always have a specific role when they come in, and generally contribute.

[nebster21]

So how many of these people that talk all this smack about jeff garcia being a system QB know that Detroit runs the west coast offense just like the Eagles?

[Oldfan]

Om --- In addition to being nitpicky and wittily sarcastic, I am also apparently thick. Can you please explain that last sentence to me?

Of course. This is how you have characterized my thoughts in Post One.

You think the Redskins need to do a better job of uncovering talent and paying less for it. That's pretty much it.

Yet, you responded to one very specific suggestion about HOW the team could do a better job of finding bargains. In fact, you quoted it in bold print. Namely:

Oldfan --- I think this requires a contrarian strategy: you look for players off losing teams, or lackluster offensive or defensive units, particularly those that are poorly coached.

[Oldfan]

It's not that the scouting strategy is the problem. In fact, it's pretty much exactly the way you outline it, OF. It's implementation that's the problem.

Have to disagree, Henry.

Randel El, coming off a great performance in the Super Bowl win is not the kind of player likely to turn out to be a bargain. His market value in the league was at its peak.

Jason Campbell, well-coached and surrounded by great talent at Auburn, but with flawed mechanics was not likely to be a bargain at the cost of three picks.

Portis, coming out of the Denver system which makes RBs look great, at the cost of a #1 (Champ's value) and #2 was not likely to be a bargain.

Marcus Washington, an unheralded player coming from a lackluster defensive unit, is the exemplar for the approach I'm suggesting.

[budski]

So if the system makes the player if I got that part right then Williams system has been figured out and we need a new one.

The Gibbs/Saunders system doesnt work either so which system do we need?

[Henry]

Have to disagree, Henry.

Randel El, coming off a great performance in the Super Bowl win is not the kind of player likely to turn out to be a bargain. His market value in the league was at its peak.

Jason Campbell, well-coached and surrounded by great talent at Auburn, but with flawed mechanics was not likely to be a bargain at the cost of three picks.

Portis, coming out of the Denver system which makes RBs look great, at the cost of a #1 (Champ's value) and #2 was not likely to be a bargain.

I think that's covered under "spend less."

I agree with spend less.

[Oldfan]

And evaluating a players talent is difficult to do if he his being coached badly or are you saying the current coaches are great and can find these people?

Basically, you have to throw away all the stats and measure performance by watching a lot of film to judge the player's skill set despite the poor coaching and lack of supporting talent.

If you don't have to give up much to sign players, you can afford to make a few mistakes.

[Oldfan]

I think that's covered under "spend less." I agree with spend less.

Yes, but don't you see that there is a strategy involved in finding players who will give you a Grade A performance for a Grade B investment?

[DCsportsfan53]

Scout better, spend less, we got it. A new and intruiging idea, for sure.

[Robbnva]

Forget the guy at the combine who weighs 300 and runs the 40 in 4.1. Can he play football... is the question you want answered.QUOTE]

If a guy weighs 300 and runs a 4.1 40 who cares if he can play football sign him up in a heartbeat. Besides how hard is it to say hold the ball as tight as possible and just RUN to the end of the field. Players can be taught to do just about anything that is why the coaches get blamed for losing seasons. If you can't get your players to drink the purple kool-aid then you aint doing your job.

Funniest things about the NFL season

1. After McNabb gets hurt almost every ex-nfl player, sports writer, and fan of the NFL (I bet if you go on the eagles board they said it too) predicted the Eagles to finsh either 3rd or last place.

2. About 4 or 5 weeks ago watching the CBS sports show recap who will stand a chance at the wild-card sports at the end of the season they said that none of the NFC east teams will get a wild-card because they are all killing themselves.

Fast forward to end of season Eagles wil most likely be Division champs and the 2 wild card teams will be from the NFC east. :laugh:

This is also a lesson to all those who said our season was over after we got our 6th loss, the people who jumped on the bandwagon after the 7th and the people who even jumped on after we got our 8th loss. because if we would have finished 8-8 we would be in the playoffs.

[DCsportsfan53]

Yes, but don't you see that there is a strategy involved in finding players who will give you a Grade A performance for a Grade B investment?

Yeah, it's called good scouting, knowing your system and what you need and luck. Seriously though, what are you advocating? We should sign no name guys who no one else really wants to small contracts and then have them far exceed those contracts. Great strategy, I'm sure no one else tries to do that. What's the point of even saying that, isn't that every team's goal? All you're are saying is we should sign guys with less of a name that fit our team and hopefully outplay their rep and contract. Great, nice theory. Now how do we go about doing that? Or do you want to keep putting a little christmas ribbon on the same tired diatribe and act like it hasn't been said before?

[Oldfan]

To try to bring this thread back on subject' date=' what you are advocating is a combination of the Steelers' system and the Patriots' system. Both have been successful. Both build "teams." [/quote']

Yes, but I was going beyond the overall approach and into a specific tactic.

If we recognize that all players are system players and some of them, like Jeff Garcia, can look pretty bad until they find the right situation, then we should try to build a roster by trying to spot players like him both in free agency and in the draft.

Randel EL didn't play for Detroit or Cleveland so he was unlikely to be a bargain...especially coming off a Super bowl year.

[DCsportsfan53]

Yes, but I was going beyond the overall approach and into a specific tactic.

If we recognize that all players are system players and some of them, like Jeff Garcia, can look pretty bad until they find the right situation, then we should try to build a roster by trying to spot players like him both in free agency and in the draft.

Randel EL didn't play for Detroit or Cleveland so he was unlikely to be a bargain...especially coming off a Super bowl year.

You're completely ignoring the fact that Garcia played in the SAME system for the SAME coach in Detroit as in San Fran. The difference was the team sucked. Jeff Garcia runs the west coast offense well because he has a quick release, excellent field vision, makes good reads and moderate arm strength. Somehow, you've expanded that to mean all players are system players, ignoring the fact that your own example looked awesome at some points and terrible at others while playing for the SAME coach in the SAME system. You can't just minimalize things like that. I'm still wondering what the point of this thread even is or if you're just bored.

[Oldfan]

Scout better, spend less, we got it. A new and intruiging idea, for sure.

Try reading Post One again. Slower this time.

[jimster]

The lesson learned from Garcia is that he has ALWAYS been good, and NO one can succeed in Cleveland or Detroit.

Garcia is a "system QB", yes, but he's also one of the scrappiest players in the league.. he's got a lot of fire and a tremendous amount of heart to go along with his knowledge of that offense. You can't knock that guy off his post. You can hit him, bust him, blast him, but you can't crush his spirit.

Of course, it certainly doesn't hurt that the offense the Eagles run is the exact same offense he's been running his entire NFL career (except in Cleveland).

I make fun of Jeff all the time in my cartoons, but in reality I'm a huge fan of his, and always have been. He's one hell of an exciting player to watch.

I think if anything is learned from this.. if you're going shopping for veteran backups, get one that knows your system as if he wrote it himself.

Lloyd doesn't compare... a receiver is only as good as his QB.. granted, he's not had a great year in his own right.. dropped a few perfect passes, but overall when it comes to our receivers this year, I'm more than willing to give them a pass based on how hampered our passing game was for over half the season with rag-arm Brunell in there, and now a young QB in his first few starts.

I also agree with the sentiment that we need better scouts and talent evaluators.

~Bang

I think this all right on:thumbsup:

Garcia is excelling because he's always been a decent QB and is now playing with his former OC in Morningweig.

Llyod and Archuleta are examples of talented players whose talents aren't being utilized.

...this success of Garcia reminded me of all the "trade Portis" threads. - You think Philly fans want to all of a sudden trade McNabb because his back-up is playing well?

[Oldfan]

So if the system makes the player if I got that part right then Williams system has been figured out and we need a new one.

The Gibbs/Saunders system doesnt work either so which system do we need?

You're off on another agenda here, budski. I'm talking about evaluating players not evaluating systems.

[Om]

Try reading Post One again. Slower this time.

He did.

I did.

We all did.

And we've all found the same thing. You're saying the Skins need to do a better job of uncovering talent and paying less for it.

I suppose it COULD be that the whole world simply hasn't grasped the genius inherent in YOUR saying it ... but more likely I think, the whole world sees what you wrote exactly for what it is. With one notable exception.

[Oldfan]

You're completely ignoring the fact that Garcia played in the SAME system for the SAME coach in Detroit as in San Fran. The difference was the team sucked.

No, I didn't ignore it. I gave you a definition of what I meant by 'system player' in the opening paragraph of Post One. Here it is again.

Oldfan from Post One: I believe that all football players are 'system players.' You won't see them at their best until they are surrounded by good, well-coached talent in a system that fits them.

[budski]

O.F. but thats what Williams and them have been doing evaluating players to fit their system, and until this year it had worked, with the exception of a pass rush, but maybe that is not part of Williams system is a pass rush.

On the other hand Saunders system was brought in to use with players who were brought in to play in a Gibbs system.

Here is my system because I am simple minded.

Score more points than your opponent, no matter what it takes money, flashy players, players who cheat, mediocre players, good coaches, great coaches.

[str8jacket]

A player that fits the system is what we need, but i agree we need the right players around them-young players who are excited and can hit, veterans who can lead, players that truly want to be in the b and g not just because we gave out the most cash. Just the right group, easier said then done.

[Henry]

Yes, but don't you see that there is a strategy involved in finding players who will give you a Grade A performance for a Grade B investment?

Yes. I also agree with 'scout better.'

[Oldfan]

Here is my system because I am simple minded. Score more points than your opponent, no matter what it takes money, flashy players, players who cheat, mediocre players, good coaches, great coaches.

NFL rules are geared for parity. Think of a budget. You have a specific spending limit. Let's call that limit 'X.' Now, if we consistently overpay, we might end up with a roster with a performance value of 80% of X. But, if we set out to find bargains with each and every transaction we might end up with a roster worth 120% of X.

Bargain hunting is the way to go in the NFL. And, in my first post, I suggested how bargains might be found. Marcus Washington, a virtual unknown off a second-rate Colts defense is the kind of player you look for in free agency. Randle El, fresh off a big time performance in a Super bowl win is the kind of player to avoid because it's highly unlikely that he will outperform his paycheck.

The very same strategy applies to the draft where there are far more bargains to be found even though spotting them is more difficult.

[Oldfan]

Yes. I also agree with 'scout better.'

If you have Grade D scouts, no roster building strategy will work.

I'm really not sure how bad we are at scouting. It's hard to tell because it's like a batting average, most GMs miss more than they hit overall.