The Cowboys are really reaching...

[RedskinDan0557]

Crayton returns punts and is a gunner on punt coverage. He's an excellent tackler on ST and just a so-so return guy. He'll lose that job to Skyler Green this year.

And ARE's Super Bowl performance??!?! Are you kidding me? Are you talking about his 3 catches for 22 yards. Wow. That is dominating.

With the exception of an occasional trick play, ARE is a non-factor. And Crayton played QB in college just like ARE so he's more than capable of throwing a WR option. I think the Crayton comparison is a fair one.

Did crayton help take a team to the superbowl?

ARE stats:

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/302217

They look pretty good to me.

ARE is a proven player. What has crayton done that's so great again?

[OWUeagleMD]

Did crayton help take a team to the superbowl?

ARE stats:

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/302217

They look pretty good to me.

ARE is a proven player. What has crayton done that's so great again?

That's the point. Crayton hasn't done anything particularly special. Neither has Randle-El, minus a (Parcells' words, not mine) jap play on the biggest stage in sports.

There are many guys who have contributed to a Superbowl team in the past. That doesn't make them special players.

[Jumbo]

And if you listen to your average skins fan, ARE is one of the best receivers in the game and destined for the Hall.

That's just plain bull, BigDave. I read these boards every day carefully and I can't think fo even one skins fam that has said anything like that. What I have seen them say are things like he's versatile, a playmaker, a good receiver (you could debate that), a solid #3 behind moss & lloyd (i've see maybe one or two guys think its possible he may make #2 but thats compared hundreds who don't say that), a playmaker, and a good threat...and all only when he's on his game, which most of us feel should be pretty consistent with our coaches and supporting cast. Plus, a real part of his role seems to be for KR.

NOWHERE have I seen anyone say ARE is "one of the best receivers in the game and destined for the Hall', let alone "the average skin fan."

Try hard not post any more stuff that is just insulting to the forum, fabricated out of whole cloth, ridiculous, and without any conversational merit beyond flaming. With a few exceptions, it seems to be this years "product line" from visiting cowboy fans.

[BigDave95]

Did crayton help take a team to the superbowl?

ARE stats:

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/302217

They look pretty good to me.

ARE is a proven player. What has crayton done that's so great again?

Help take his team to the Super Bowl??? So I guess Pitt's 3rd string DE who played kickoff coverage "helped take his team to the Super Bowl".

And I've seen those stats. What part of them look pretty good to you?? He averaged a little over 2 catches a game for the season. Yes... he's proven.

[RedskinDan0557]

That's the point. Crayton hasn't done anything particularly special. Neither has Randle-El, minus a (Parcells' words, not mine) jap play on the biggest stage in sports.

There are many guys who have contributed to a Superbowl team in the past. That doesn't make them special players.

ARE was 3 fo 3 in passing last season, so that trick play in the superbowl was no fluke.

Here's crayton's stats:

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/492917

Yeah, great stats.

[BigDave95]

That's just plain bull, BigDave. I read these boards every day carefully and I can't think fo even one skins fam that has said anything like that. What I have seen them say are things like he's versatile, a playmaker, a good receiver (you could debate that), a solid #3 behind moss & lloyd (i've see maybe one or two guys think its possible he may make #2 but thats compared hundreds who don't say that), a playmaker, and a good threat...and all only when he's on his game, which most of us feel should be pretty consistent with our coaches and supprtiong cast.

NOWHERE have I seen anyone say ARE is "one of the best receivers in the game and destined for the Hall', let alone "the average skin fan."

Try hard not post any more stuff that is just insulting to the forum, fabricated out of whole cloth, ridiculous, and without any conversational merit beyond flaming. With a few exceptions, it seems to be this years "product line" from visiting cowboy fans.

I'll admit that most of the ARE nonsense I read came from the Warpath message board. I'm sure if I spent 5 minutes, I could find some links for you. I never said that posters on this board have enshrined him. I simply said that the "average skins fan", which I would assume those posters are, believed it.

I'll agree that ARE is a decent #3 and special teamer and nothing more. Much along the lines of say... Patrick Crayton.

[BigDave95]

ARE was 3 fo 3 in passing last season, so that trick play in the superbowl was no fluke.

Here's crayton's stats:

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/492917

Yeah, great stats.

Patrick injured his ankle and was never the same after that. He started out the season as a solid contributor.

Listen, I'm not trying to say that Crayton is a great player. He's not really even that good. He's got decent speed and excellent hands but doesn't run the best route. I see his ceiling as most likely a 3rd WR and possibly a decent #2 as the best case.

Very similar to... ARE.

[RedskinDan0557]

I'll admit that most of the ARE nonsense I read came from the Warpath message board. I'm sure if I spent 5 minutes, I could find some links for you. I never said that posters on this board have enshrined him. I simply said that the "average skins fan", which I would assume those posters are, believed it.

I'll agree that ARE is a decent #3 and special teamer and nothing more. Much along the lines of say... Patrick Crayton.

But much better and above all a proven player. Crayton is not comparable in any regards other than the positions they play: #3 wide reciever & st's.

Who do you think the big fish would rather have on his team: Crayton or ARE?

Crayton is not the same caliber of player.

[BigDave95]

Who do you think the big fish would rather have on his team: Crayton or ARE?

Bill loves Crayton. He's his little project player so I would bet you anything he'd rather have him than ARE. Plus Crayton is a better blocker than ARE which is very important to Parcells.

It doesn't really matter though because Dallas will be running a 2 TE as their base set so the #3 WR won't play that much this season.

[Skins4481]

Before his injury last season, Patrick Crayton had 18 catches for 272 yards as compared to Randle El's 13 catches for 297 yards during that same span. And if you listen to your average skins fan, ARE is one of the best receivers in the game and destined for the Hall.

So I guess Crayton isn't too bad for a 7th round pick...

Once again, a ridiculous post by another Cowboys fan. NO ONE said Randle El is headed for the HOF. Do you guys ever get tired of making stupid :pooh up? :doh:

:dallasuck

[Dirk Diggler]

EDIT: It's especially irrelevant when a palyer's numbers are as pedestrian as Randle El's were in that game. I remember the trick play, but didn't realize he contributed so modestly elsewhere.

Yes, Patrick Crayton plays special teams. I believe he suffered his injury last year while returning a punt.

I don't know why Iggles fans seem to be so concerned with ARE. Maybe because they were rumored to be interested and didnt' get him? I've seen some of you claim that Gaffney is just as good if not better which is bull.

His biggest impact will be on special teams - where he has demostrated league-leading ability. He will be the primary punt returner and perhaps get some reps at KR. Also, he is being counted on to put up #3 WR numbers, not #2. If he puts up 500-600 yards receiving that will be wonderful. His YPC average has been excellent and I'm sure it will continue to be. He's also a threat running the ball and throwing. What's not to like?

Sure you can get down on his numbers as a receiver but let's keep in mind who he was playing for - Pittsburgh. No one ran the ball more than them last season. And ARE was option #3 in a rarely used passing game behind Ward and Heath Miller.

[BigDave95]

Once again, a ridiculous post by another Cowboys fan. NO ONE said Randle El is headed for the HOF. Do you guys ever get tired of making stupid :pooh up?

That would be an example of an exaggeration to emphasize a point. It's just as ridiculous for a skins fan to say that ARE "took his team to a Super Bowl". I guess no skins fan would say that either?????

[Chachie]

Crayton proved that ANY player can burn you for a game-winning TD. Randle-El proved that ANY player can burn you on a trick play. Why squabble over details? If for some reason Crayton has a good game against us this season, Cowboy supporters will call him "better" than ARE. If ARE has a good game vs. Dallas, we will do the same. It's exhausting and only shows a lack of depth in the overall regard for the game of football, IMHO.

I try not to underestimate any Cowboy and always snicker when a Cowboy fan "condemns" one of our players to mediocrity. It's silly and it only invites embarrassment if that player does something to show everyone that he belongs in the league.

It's similar to the ongoing Williams-Taylor debate. These are 2 absolute beasts. To try to argue over who is "better" is ridiculous.

[Jumbo]

I'll admit that most of the ARE nonsense I read came from the Warpath message board. I'm sure if I spent 5 minutes, I could find some links for you. I never said that posters on this board have enshrined him. I simply said that the "average skins fan", which I would assume those posters are, believed it.

I'll agree that ARE is a decent #3 and special teamer and nothing more. Much along the lines of say... Patrick Crayton.

I accept that qualification, and I did assume you meant this board without other indication being available. No links required, but thanks for the response.

My :2cents: on this deal: Crayton is a solid player, nothing really wrong with him, probably not going to be a #1 WR on most teams, but there are a lot of good players worth having that aren't the #1 WR.

Randle El can be mediocre at times and very impressive at others. I submit he has many excellent football skills and is exceptionally versatile when all cylinders are firing. I would also say his league value is fairly high, though not of "star" level, and certainly not superstar. He would have had several good homes but we paid (or overpaid for those who take comfort in that*) to get him because some pretty good talent evaluators and motivators wanted him.

I agree with them, and the money's not an issue to me or the team; just to the critics looking for something to throw. Our personnel are either right about the guy's potential to contribute or they're not. I think they're right. I think all he's needed is the right environment, improved self-attitude and coaching to not only play at a consistently high level, but to actually step-up his game. I think he's going to find all those things in this team with the kind of team atmosphere the Redskin's have these days and the way the “right attitude” starts at the top, flows down with unity and power and individuality, and is supported by every player who makes this team. We'll see.

* There really is a “way” to be guilty of overpaying, but the way it usually gets applied to the Redskins reminds me of when I recently outbid a guy I know on an old Audio Research tube amp I wanted and he gave me that “overpaid” dig in the extreme. I told him it didn't bother me, I wanted it, it matched well with something else I had in an auxiliary system, and since I make more in one week than he does in a month, it was no biggy, it didn’t “hurt” me in any way.

[RedskinDan0557]

Bill loves Crayton. He's his little project player so I would bet you anything he'd rather have him than ARE. Plus Crayton is a better blocker than ARE which is very important to Parcells.

It doesn't really matter though because Dallas will be running a 2 TE as their base set so the #3 WR won't play that much this season.

So then you admit that crayton is a project player, ARE is no project player--he is a prove veteran, and unless there is an unholy relationship between crayton and the fish man, no way in hell a coach takes crayton over ARE.

you cowpukes are swimming in delusion.

[Skins4481]

That would be an example of an exaggeration to emphasize a point. It's just as ridiculous for a skins fan to say that ARE "took his team to a Super Bowl". I guess no skins fan would say that either?????

Skins fans say that he HELPED his team make it to the Super Bowl. Cowboys fans, the idiots that they are, take that as HE TOOK his team to the Super Bowl.

[RedskinDan0557]

That would be an example of an exaggeration to emphasize a point. It's just as ridiculous for a skins fan to say that ARE "took his team to a Super Bowl". I guess no skins fan would say that either?????

He may not have been the qb on that team, but he got the job done when he needed to.

[BigDave95]

Skins fans say that he HELPED his team make it to the Super Bowl. Cowboys fans, the idiots that they are, take that as HE TOOK his team to the Super Bowl.

Why don't you re-read Page 2 of this very thread and try again...

[RedskinDan0557]

Why don't you re-read Page 2 of this very thread and try again...

Here is my original unedited post:

Did crayton help take a team to the superbowl?

ARE stats:

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/302217

They look pretty good to me.

ARE is a proven player. What has crayton done that's so great again?

So stop making stuff up and get out of denial. ARE > PC.

[BigDave95]

Here is my original unedited post:

Did crayton help take a team to the superbowl?

Does this not imply that you think ARE helped take his team to the Super Bowl?

[RedskinDan0557]

Does this not imply that you think ARE helped take his team to the Super Bowl?

Yes, thank you for stating the obvious. I'm sure ARE will let you kiss his ring if you ask nicely.

[poidog22]

Coach Bill Parcells is concerned about depth behind starters Terry Glenn and Owens. Third receiver Patrick Crayton has proven capable at times, but he has only 34 career receptions.

He's only had 34 career catches?!? Seems like he's had more...probably b/c many of those 34 were against us. :doh:

[OWUeagleMD]

ARE was 3 fo 3 in passing last season, so that trick play in the superbowl was no fluke.

Here's crayton's stats:

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/492917

Yeah, great stats.

I didn't call it a fluke, I called it a jap play.

Funny, I was going to use his 3 completed passes as evidence of their relative meaninglessness in terms of a 16 game season. They certainly don't warrant the respect you seem to have for Mr. El.

Crayton's stats aren't particularly impressive. Neither are Randle El's, which is precisely the point I've made in this thread.

Do you actually watch football games, or do you only rely on stats as your sole form of estimating a players' worth? I ask only because twice now you have posted a link to an inconclusive and underwhelming stat page and acted as though you had just blown the doors off of the discussion.

[RedskinDan0557]

I didn't call it a fluke, I called it a jap play.

Funny, I was going to use his 3 completed passes as evidence of their relative meaninglessness in terms of a 16 game season. They certainly don't warrant the respect you seem to have for Mr. El.

Crayton's stats aren't particularly impressive. Neither are Randle El's, which is precisely the point I've made in this thread.

Do you actually watch football games, or do you only rely on stats as your sole form of estimating a players' worth? I ask only because twice now you have posted a link to an inconclusive and underwhelming stat page and acted as though you had just blown the doors off of the discussion.

Nah, I don't just look at stats, Crayton wasn't credited with all of his fumbles---you really have to look at his play to know that ARE is a much better player.

Fact: ARE stats are better than pc. ARE is not his head coach's so called pet project. ARE is a solid proven veteran. It was ARE's trick play that won them the superbowl ( link: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs05/news/story?id=2320690).

Get over it, you cannot compare crayton to ARE, its just foolishness to do so.

[OWUeagleMD]

Nah, I don't just look at stats, Crayton wasn't credited with all of his fumbles---you really have to look at his play to know that ARE is a much better player.

Fact: ARE stats are better than pc. ARE is not his head coach's so called pet project. ARE is a solid proven veteran. It was ARE's trick play that won them the superbowl ( link: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs05/news/story?id=2320690).

Get over it, you cannot compare crayton to ARE, its just foolishness to do so.

First of all, they are both slot recievers on team's who consider themselves Superbowl contenders. That alone makes any comparison between the two completely valid.

Randle El is a better player, but not by any large amount. Just as mentioned in this thread previously, their numbers were nearly identical last season before Crayton went down. Your initial rebuttal was that Crayton didn't play special teams, which you now know is completely untrue.

Did Randle El's pass win the superbowl? Sure. Does the ability to complete a trick play qualify Randle El as a better reciever than his modest numbers indicate? Not really. More importantly, has Superbowl success translated to a blossomed career for past Superbowl performers? In the cases of Dexter Jackson, Larry Brown, and Desmond Howard, certainly not.

Heck, Greg Lewis had a great Superbowl performance, complete with a touchdown catch (the typical role of a wide reciever). Yet, I don't think anyone would suggest Greg Lewis as a desirable player as a result.