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Why the Redskins don't need a G.M. - Essay


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Cowsette, Delbert DT Maryland - made roster 1 yr

Actually, he was on the active roster for 2 years, and got a decent amount of playing time as a reserve.

Todd Husak actually bounced around the league for a while.

My thought process is simply that a "stronger" GM-type person might be better suited after Gibbs retires.

I don't think we will ever have that type of guy here because Snyder is always going to want to be involved with selecting the head coach, which is one of the main responsibilities.

One of the arguments for a GM is that puting both jobs on the Head Coach is usually too much, but the Skins have a highly delagated structure, as Inmate pointed out. Vinny takes care of scouting players. The assistants have a lot of say in players. I don't see what this has to change if you trust your head coach to make sound decisions.

I have a feeling that Gibbs will be here longer than most people think, just not as head coach. It looks to me he's setting himself up to go upstairs and keep the Team President title. To me, it makes perfect sense.

Jason

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Fury, you've the 1013th member and you've only got 17 posts? Man, that's a lot of lurking! Mods, give this guy a few hundred of my posts.

I didn't want to be called a post padder....you guys are rough!

I only offer an opinion when I have one.

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Guest santana4prez
3 - Harrison, Lloyd CB North Carolina State - made roster 1 yr

Anyone remember this player. I never did understand why the coaches let him go. In Preseason he made plays. I guess he had flaws in his game that couldnt be fixed?

http://slam.canoe.ca/FootballNFL00Games/aug25_pit_was.html

Graham had a pass bounce off running back Richard Huntley's chest into the hands of Lloyd Harrison, who dashed untouched 55 yards for a touchdown.

http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news_room/news/arts/490.0.html

A 19-yard field goal with 4:06 to go by Washington K Brett Conway broke a 17-17 tie and a 57-yard interception return by Redskin DB Lloyd Harrison with 1:55 remaining slammed the door on Cleveland.

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Anyone remember this player. I never did understand why the coaches let him go. In Preseason he made plays. I guess he had flaws in his game that couldnt be fixed?

http://slam.canoe.ca/FootballNFL00Games/aug25_pit_was.html

Graham had a pass bounce off running back Richard Huntley's chest into the hands of Lloyd Harrison, who dashed untouched 55 yards for a touchdown.

http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news_room/news/arts/490.0.html

A 19-yard field goal with 4:06 to go by Washington K Brett Conway broke a 17-17 tie and a 57-yard interception return by Redskin DB Lloyd Harrison with 1:55 remaining slammed the door on Cleveland.

I know he was with Norv the year Norv was in San Diego.

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This observation/rant isn't helping anyone. It adds nothing to the discussion but a demeaning insult. We aren't questioning the coaching staff at all, anyways. But we would have every right to do so as a fan.

Some of you most definately are questioning the coaching staff. I'm not trying to insult anyone just trying to make a point. :doh:

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Actually Inmate I think some of us have rebutted your comments, perhaps just not in the way you expected. The current setup we have using input from the coaching staff with Gibbs/Williams having the final say actually amounts to Vinny having been demoted to Head Scout. If I remember correctly he said something to that effect in the chat he did on the site.

Most of us seem to agree that things have improved since Gibbs' return. In fact, the almost immediate improvement brought about by the current staff highlights the ineptitude of the Snyderatto combination. However, our concern is that if Coach Gibbs decides not to continue in his current administrative capacity after he's finished coaching, Vinny's role will re-expand thus returning the team to the bad old days. Therefore, he needs to go in much the same way that Danny Woeful had to so that SOS wouldn't be tempted to play him again.

Certainly there's a lot to be said for continuity. However in his current capacity as ersatz scouting director, I fail to see how replacing him would hurt continuity much. Most of the decision making power is held by others and all he's doing at this point is taking up a spot that could be filled by someone we'd like to groom for bigger things down the road. In other words, keeping such a vestigal organ around has an opportunity cost that might only become apparent later. Furthermore, separating coaching and team management is a better long term strategy as the coach can sometimes suffer from an inability to see the forest for the trees.

...and BTW, I did offer up a name of someone we could have had (McKay) that IMHO would have given Gibbs a much better roster to work with from the day he got here. ;) As for which guys might be available to us now, I don't know that any of us on the board have the inside information to make such a determination as the true decision making process within most clubs isn't exactly public information. However right now I'd be looking pretty hard for those up and comers within teams that have done a good job at personnel and team organization. My short list for such a foray would include the Patsies, Steelers, Ravens, Gnats and Panthros.

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Most of us seem to agree that things have improved since Gibbs' return. In fact, the almost immediate improvement brought about by the current staff highlights the ineptitude of the Snyderatto combination. However, our concern is that if Coach Gibbs decides not to continue in his current administrative capacity after he's finished coaching, Vinny's role will re-expand thus returning the team to the bad old days. Therefore, he needs to go in much the same way that Danny Woeful had to so that SOS wouldn't be tempted to play him again.

Course, you are ignoring that these guys could have actually LEARNED from their mistakes? That, going through all of this, that they are better because of it? Yes, it was painful for us, but it was beneficial in the end.

BTW, the "bad old days" really was just one season, his first. In relation with what Spurrier wanted, I actually thought Ceratto did a fine job. The problem was that Spurrier's plan was screwed up.

Furthermore, separating coaching and team management is a better long term strategy as the coach can sometimes suffer from an inability to see the forest for the trees.

If you have noticed, Gibbs has started to do that. That's what the hiring of Al Saunders tells me. Gibbs is turning into more of a manager and less of a coach.

...and BTW, I did offer up a name of someone we could have had (McKay) that IMHO would have given Gibbs a much better roster to work with from the day he got here. ;)

I'd be interested to know which players you think would have been better. The Skins roster was pretty much a mess when Gibbs got here, and while he may have overpaid to get a couple of players, the results were probably as good as to be expected.

Jason

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Guest santana4prez
If you have noticed, Gibbs has started to do that. That's what the hiring of Al Saunders tells me. Gibbs is turning into more of a manager and less of a coach.

I have a different take on it then most fans. I think Gibbs had a great offense that got bogged down by injuries. I honestly believe Joe Gibbs could call the plays and be successful this season. I just feel that Gibbs knew adding Al Saunders would bring more ideas and overall another great coach. I feel Gibbs gave Saunders the playcalling duties so he could get him to come to Washington and so the team could be even more of a machine on offense. They both know each other from their Air Coryell days and could work together to exchange ideas and improve from last season. Gibbs will still be a huge part in the offense but I agree it is also a way for him to help Gregg Williams when he becomes Head Coach in a couple years by having a great offensive playcaller like Saunders on board. I dont agree with some fans opinions that Gibbs wasnt smart enough to call plays. I think Gibbs saw a chance to improve his football team and did it. That dosent make him anyless of a Head Coach. I agreed in general with you opinion I just have my own :2cents: on it.

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Let me lighten up the mood of this serious debate about our F.O./lynch mob out for Vinny's head on a stick.... ;)

This is one hell of a quote by our coach.

About drafting Nehemiah Broughton in the 7th round, Gibbs was quoted in the media stating: “Earnest Byner went down and had a workout with him personally at the campus. We really like him. We think he fits in very well with us. Gibbs said. "To be quite truthful, Earnest was upset we didn't take him awhile back. He got kind of emotional about it, so we figured we better give him his way, or he was going to beat the slop out of me."

Gibbs is one funny guy. "He got kind of emotional about it, so we figured we better give him his way, or he was going to beat the slop out of me." That's a great Gibbs quote and also the words of a true leader gentelmen. Everything that comes out of Gibbs' mouth, from those little quircky comments followed by his cackle all the way up to calling out Sean Salsbury on his nude walk to D.C. on NFL live demonstrate his leadership ability. Every word has a meaning...Gibbs has total respect and faith in his staff, they give their input and its taken seriously.

I know its off topic, but those little Gibbs comments crack me up...damn I love me some Joe Gibbs. :notworthy

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However right now I'd be looking pretty hard for those up and comers within teams that have done a good job at personnel and team organization. My short list for such a foray would include the Patsies, Steelers, Ravens, Gnats and Panthros.

Nice list and I'd add looking into the Colts and Eagles organizations as well.

Given the current front office structure we'd be better served beefing up one of the NFL's smaller scouting departments than trying to show Vinny the door.

It might make sense to apply our "Gregg Williams philosophy" here by acquiring head scouts from a few of the above teams and reassigning them as regular scouts but at a significant raise.

Its the kind of move that could give us a real shot in the arm as far as evaluating college talent but so far it doesn't seem to be a priority.

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But those few people arguing why we need a G.M., haven’t really suggested ANYONE that we should hire and why? Instead its lets fire Vinny Cerrato.

Your original argument was that the Skins don't need a GM. Now you're arguing that no one has presented a plausible candidate to replace Vinny. Hmm... sounds like you've changed your mind! You wouldn't want to entertain alternatives if you didn't think we need a GM, now would you?

I don't think it's necessary to name alternatives, however, because it's like speculating on the young veteran QB the Skins should bring in now. It's just not going to happen. But if you insist on names, I'll give you some: based on the evidence, Vinny's one of the worst GMs (the role, not the title) in the NFL. I can think of only about four or five front offices who've performed worse in talent acquisition via the draft during the same period. So I'd say that just about anyone with NFL experience could do better. Get a phonebook -- all those names will do.

Do you argue that? Do you think Vinny has been anywhere near average? And average isn't good enough. Gibbs needs and deserves a strong partner running the front office. Now, all of us know Joe can walk on water, and we know that he has improved the front office dramatically since he has arrived. He fixed the free agent strategy that Danny and Vinny bungled for years: No more aging has-beens looking for a last fat contract (Smith, Sanders), no more scumbags (Walker, a certain troubled tight end, George), no more prima donnas (Coles). And he's working to fix the draft issues. But why should he have to do it alone? Coaching, particularly in season, is a full-time job. Joe won't be watching a lot of college games in Nov and Dec. He needs help. And I think he deserves the best help possible.

You seem to think that the Skins should just force Gibbs to do everything: the coaching, the scouting, parking the cars... I'm sure he'd be the best at all those things, but he doesn't have the time. So why not give him the best support you can? If you're going to have a GM (or VP of Player Personnel, or whatever you call it), why don't you want a good one?

No one, not even you, has plausible argued that Vinny is even average at his job. Do you have some evidence that you've been hiding?

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^^^ I think this post is spot on. Longshot's post about hiring Saunders is correct as well. If Gibbs was astute enough to realize he needed some help with offensive playcalling, or if he thought he was doing just fine, but thought it could be better, why can not he potentially come to the same conclusion with a GM? He saw he needed some help/improvement on offense, so why not with scouting/GM duties? Is Cerrato the best we can get? Would any of the Vinny apologists put him in the top five GM's in the league? Top 10? I'm not sure I would put him in the bottom 5 as Madd does, as I think Longshot's post about Spurrier's players was a good one. But I would put him in the middle somewhere, and I think we could do better. So why not try to make it better?

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I don't think it's necessary to name alternatives, however, because it's like speculating on the young veteran QB the Skins should bring in now. It's just not going to happen. But if you insist on names, I'll give you some: based on the evidence, Vinny's one of the worst GMs (the role, not the title) in the NFL. I can think of only about four or five front offices who've performed worse in talent acquisition via the draft during the same period. So I'd say that just about anyone with NFL experience could do better. Get a phonebook -- all those names will do.

Careful. Casserly is still in the league. ;)

No one, not even you, has plausible argued that Vinny is even average at his job. Do you have some evidence that you've been hiding?

Ok, I'll make this argument.

2002 draft: Of the 10 players drafted, 2 are currently on the team (Betts, Cartwright), 2 were on this team for four years (Ramsey, Royal), and Lott was on this team for 3. That's basically 50%, even with a coaching change in there.

As for 2003, 2 of the 3 players are still on the roster (Course, Jacobs may not be long), and Gibran Hamden is still developing nicely in NFL Europe for the Seahawks.

Really, not a bad record, considering that there was a coaching change in there.

If you are going to blame GM functions on the team, blame Snyder with his head coach decisions. First, hiring a guy he couldn't work with at the end with Marty, then dumping him for the sexy pick of Spurrier, setting back development of this team a couple years at least.

It is a good thing Gibbs is a smart football guy, and is able to hire the right assistants that will stick around for a while.

Jason

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As a followup, let me ask this question: If Vinny is such a horrible personnel guy, how come we are a playoff team now? Sure, the coaches have chosen the right players, but they can't do that unless they get good information. That is what a scouting department is FOR! Fact is, Vinny was able, with the help of his department, get all of this information for the coaching staff so that they could make good decisions on players. Doesn't Vinny get any credit for this?

Jason

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Really, not a bad record, considering that there was a coaching change in there. Jason

I'll reiterate: The Skins have had a total of 31 draft picks, with six first-rounders in five years -- including FOUR TOP 10 PICKS -- and he's only found five starters. That doesn't include this year, of course, but it's a real long-shot for more than one starter to emerge from this draft. I'd say that is a bad record. It's a miserable record. The best measure is to stack it up against the competition: compared to the NFC East, it's a bad record, right? Compared to the whole NFL, it's a bad record, right?

But, further, you're saying that if you put a strong, independent GM in Vinny's role that we'd be in the same position? I'd argue that's not true. There are plenty of GMs in this league who stand up to good coaches when they know they're right. Hell, both Bobby and CC stood up to Joe Freakin' Gibbs on occasion. But Vinny couldn't even stand up to Steve Spurrier -- and this is important -- even though Spurrier admitted he didn't know jack **** about drafting.

Maybe there's a role for Vinny. Every owner needs someone they can trust. But do you really want to trust the future of the team to him? His record speaks for itself: years of failure. The fact that Gibbs has turned things around overnight doesn't excuse Vinny's past failures.

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As a followup, let me ask this question: If Vinny is such a horrible personnel guy, how come we are a playoff team now?

Jason

Two words: JOE GIBBS. Do you really believe the Skins would be a playoff team last year without him? Seriously?

Sure, the coaches have chosen the right players, but they can't do that unless they get good information. That is what a scouting department is FOR! Fact is, Vinny was able, with the help of his department, get all of this information for the coaching staff so that they could make good decisions on players. Doesn't Vinny get any credit for this?

Funny, Vinny's been here seven years (minus the Schotty year). The Skins stunk for six of them. Gibbs comes in, spends a year jettisoning Vinny players like Coles, and gets them to the playoffs. And you want to credit Vinny for that?

Believe me, this is Gibbs' team now. Vinny had years to make his mark, and here's the proof: how many players currently starting pre-date Gibbs? Very few. On offense, he added Brunell, Portis, Cooley, Moss, Raybach, and Randle El. Sounds like Vinny didn't leave him much, right?

Now let's check the defense: Washington, Taylor, Springs, Carter, Griffin, Rogers, Archuletta. All new. Every player on the team of any quality!

All in all, Gibbs had to replace 18 of 22 starters in two years. And you're defending Vinny's record? Gibbs had to rebuild the entire damn roster, and you're saying Vinny did a good job?

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yeah there is no way vinny has much say in the players we've brought in the past 3 years. if anything, he has to feel insulted that gibbs wants to get rid of all the guys he spent time acquiring, like a laveraneus coles. gibbs might say everything is a team decision with him, vinny and snyder making the decisions, but when it comes down to it, it is gibbs decision.

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I'll reiterate: The Skins have had a total of 31 draft picks, with six first-rounders in five years -- including FOUR TOP 10 PICKS -- and he's only found five starters. That doesn't include this year, of course, but it's a real long-shot for more than one starter to emerge from this draft. I'd say that is a bad record. It's a miserable record. The best measure is to stack it up against the competition: compared to the NFC East, it's a bad record, right? Compared to the whole NFL, it's a bad record, right?

First off, Vinny has only been back the past 4. (Remember, Marty was his own GM in 2001.) We can't count this draft, since we don't know where they will end up, so we have 23 draft picks. Of those, I count 8 that have started for us (Ramsey, Betts, Lott, Royal, Dockery, Taylor, Cooley and Rogers) Rock and Molinaro are valuable backups. Campbell is a potential franchise QB. Now how White, McCune and Nemo turn out is a good question, but out of the above, 10 out of 23 have proven valuable, with the potential being 14 out of 23. While that isn't outstanding, it is certainly something I would take, particularly since the more recent picks seem to be promising. Unfortunatly, we don't have enough data to make a final judge of his record. Really, only 2002 has played out, and while it wasn't great, it wasn't a washout either.

Maybe there's a role for Vinny. Every owner needs someone they can trust. But do you really want to trust the future of the team to him? His record speaks for itself: years of failure. The fact that Gibbs has turned things around overnight doesn't excuse Vinny's past failures.

So the revolving door on the coaching staff has nothing to do with the failures of this organization? Really, it is hard to keep some consistancy when you have to rip up the lineup every time you have a coaching change.

Jason

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Two words: JOE GIBBS. Do you really believe the Skins would be a playoff team last year without him? Seriously?

Do you think Gibbs is in charge of the scouting department and personally makes evaluations of all the players in the league and the draft? Seriously?

Funny, Vinny's been here seven years (minus the Schotty year). The Skins stunk for six of them. Gibbs comes in, spends a year jettisoning Vinny players like Coles, and gets them to the playoffs. And you want to credit Vinny for that?

Coles was a fine pickup until he injured his toe. Such is football. Coles' bad attitude wasn't Vinnie's fault either.

Believe me, this is Gibbs' team now. Vinny had years to make his mark, and here's the proof: how many players currently starting pre-date Gibbs? Very few. On offense, he added Brunell, Portis, Cooley, Moss, Raybach, and Randle El. Sounds like Vinny didn't leave him much, right?

How many players stuck around when Marty took over? Spurrier?

That's a big hint.

Jason

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Jason, I would think that the changing organization has hurt a great deal. That has made Vinny's job that much more difficult. And he did a decent job of getting Spurrier his players. Maybe Vinny isn't as bad I think, but maybe he isn't as good as you think.

My solution is to get an up-and-comer, let them learn under Gibbs for a few years, then when Gibbs steps back, allow the newbie to stand on his own and be a real GM. I think we all agree that the best case is that Gibbs steps upstairs to be the team President (or something like it regardless of titles), and then GW steps in. If Williams steps in, wouldn't it be a good idea to have someone strong in place as a GM? Someone to provide a long-term outlook to compliment the coach's short term concerns. That makes some sense to me. In that scenario, Gibbs would still have the final say, and would have balanced input coming in from the personnel department and the coaching department. Balance is a good thing. Looking at Vinny's track record, I'm not sure he is a great evaluator of talent, nor am I certain he could or would stand up to Williams if he had to. I think, to be fair, he is probably an average talent evaluator (he seems to have fairly good sucess in the earlier rounds; not so much in 3-7, imo). So why not upgrade and get someone who is an outstanding talent evaluator, and can get us good value in the later rounds? Why settle?

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How many players stuck around when Marty took over? Spurrier?

That's a big hint.

Jason

It's funny that you're only willing to compare the Redskins to the Redskins. This is football. Success and failure are measured against other teams. That's why they keep score. And in that regard, the rebuilding campaign that Gibbs has undertaken is pretty revolutionary.

Your excuses for Vinny are not compelling. If Vinny was doing a good job pre-Gibbs, then Gibbs wouldn't need to completely overhaul the roster. But he did. So now you're stuck arguing that it wasn't Vinny's fault, it was the revolving door of coaches. But, of course, Vinny was never strong enough to stand up to any of those coaches. I really don't understand why you're defending his player acquisitions -- the proof is on the field. Joe took one look and rebuilt the entire team, didn't he?

Coles did have one good year. But it wasn't his toe that cause Joe to PAY to get rid of him. It was his character. Just like a lot of the guys Vinny brought in who were primarily here for the paycheck.

I can't believe you really think this team would be in the playoffs last year without Joe Gibbs. He brought in 18 of 22 starters in two years. He brought in all the best coaches money can buy. He practically willed them to win. And you credit... Vinny?

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goaldeje,

I think you misunderstand what the job of a GM is. It is basically a combination of Vinnie's job, Gibbs Team President job, and Snyder's job as far as the running of the team is concerned. That's not what we have, and we probably aren't going to have something like that. If Gibbs kicks himself upstairs, the jobs will remain the same.

BTW, it isn't Vinnie's job to stand up to the head coach. That's Snyder's job, and he certainly did that with Spurrier, siding with Vinnie on a couple of personnel decisions. Right now, it is Gibbs job, which does bring up a slight conflict of interest, but I assume that Snyder still plays tiebreaker. Once Gibbs goes upstairs, that isn't as much of a problem.

As an evaluator of talent, Gibbs sure seems happy with Vinnie.

Jason

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It's funny that you're only willing to compare the Redskins to the Redskins. This is football. Success and failure are measured against other teams. That's why they keep score. And in that regard, the rebuilding campaign that Gibbs has undertaken is pretty revolutionary.

Ok, let's look at other teams. How many players are left after Parcells took over? Probably not many. Sorry, but turnover isn't revolutionary, finding success that soon is.

But, of course, Vinny was never strong enough to stand up to any of those coaches. I really don't understand why you're defending his player acquisitions -- the proof is on the field. Joe took one look and rebuilt the entire team, didn't he?

As I said above, that wasn't Vinny's job. That was Snyder's.

And no, he didn't rebuild the entire team immediatly. There were some players he wanted to evaluate, and there are some he wanted to keep that he wasn't able to.

Coles did have one good year. But it wasn't his toe that cause Joe to PAY to get rid of him. It was his character. Just like a lot of the guys Vinny brought in who were primarily here for the paycheck.

Blame the guy who negotiates the contracts and signs the paychecks: Snyder.

I can't believe you really think this team would be in the playoffs last year without Joe Gibbs. He brought in 18 of 22 starters in two years. He brought in all the best coaches money can buy. He practically willed them to win. And you credit... Vinny?

Dude, do you actually read what I write? I give both credit, since Gibbs doesn't bring in the players without Vinnie's help. And the fact that Vinnie is still here says something, doesn't it?

Jason

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