Why the Redskins don't need a G.M. - Essay

[inmate running the asylum]

Inmate is in his serious mode today, not his Miss Cleo fun mode. :rubeyes:

Every year around draft time there seem to be some fans who come out of the woodwork to exclaim: “the Redskin draft sucks and we should get rid of Vinny Cerrato and hire a G.M. These same fans rarely ever present any convincing arguments of their opinions but just state something to the effect: Look at the success of New England and Pittsburgh who build through the draft, etc., etc.,” Well if you’ve got an opposing opinion that’s relevant, at least back it up with some facts or something.

I have the opinion that the Redskins don’t need a G.M., and I’ll show you why. And I’m glad they didn’t rehire Bobby Beathard a couple of years ago -- who had lost his magic in San Diego. And I don’t want to see the return of Charley Casserly either, who I think was average at best and is overrated. At least two-thirds of the teams in the NFL have average or below-average G.M’s, so where does that get you?

The knock on Bill Parcells I've read in the media, is that Parcells was a great coach but "was not a personnel man." Meaning he was poor at drafting players. Well, whether that is true or not, Jerry Jones has relieved him of much of that pressure.

Then I read in the media that when Joe Gibbs came back, he was also not a "personnel man," because Bobby Beathard handled all of that when he was the G.M. of the Redskins. Well I would like to refute that.

NEW ENGLAND

But first lets look at New England and Pittsburgh. Its true that New England and Pittsburgh have a front office philosophy of building their teams through the draft. And they have had a lot of success recently doing it that way. But they have also had some luck too. Luck you say? Yes.

When New England drafts QB Tom Brady in the 6th round and almost cut him his rookie year -- and then he develops overnight into a Pro Bowl player -- I would call that being mostly lucky. For if the New England scouts and front office really thought that highly of Brady in the first place, they would have drafted him in a higher round themselves! But it may surprise some people to know that New England does NOT have a G.M.! Scott Pioli who does most of their draft evaluations, is their Vice-president of player personnel. Unlike Pittsburgh for the most part, however, New England will supplement their draft with an occasional big free agent signing, such as RB Corey Dillion and S Rodney Harrison.

PITTSBURGH

Then there is Pittsburgh. It may come as a surprise to some people also, that Pittsburgh doesn’t have a G.M.!

Excerpt from USA Today recently:

“The Steelers have done it with continuity at the top. They have no general manager, but coach Bill Cowher and director of football operations Kevin Colbert, both Pittsburgh natives, will be together for their seventh draft. Cowher and Colbert have a clear-cut notion of what kinds of players they want to fit game plans that feature an offense balancing run and pass and a defense known for stopping the run and blitzing quarterbacks from anywhere.

Decisions are made with input from scouts who work year round and position coaches who get their say when the NFL season is done.”

And Pittsburgh also has had a bit of luck on their side. When you sign a UDFA running back named Willie Parker -- who wasn’t even a starter at North Carolina -- and he goes on to rush for over a 1,000 yards and becomes a star in the Super Bowl, you have to say that also involves some luck. Otherwise the Steelers would have used a draft pick on him.

And when you are sitting there at draft time considering drafting a QB, and Ben Roethlisburger drops in the draft and falls into your lap, that also involves a bit of luck. Because if some other team had drafted Roethlisburger ahead of the Steelers, the Steelers would probably had drafted some other QB instead.

Sometimes its better to be lucky than good. Those two players -- Roethlisburger and Parker were the two players that separated the Steelers from the rest of the NFL pack and catapulted the Steelers into Super Bowl winners.

There are also other teams that have had success over the years without a G.M. too, such as Philadelphia and the Raiders. Granted the Raiders haven’t done well the last 3 years, but that may be because Al Davis is getting up there in years, and like Bobby Beathard, has lost his magic when it comes to drafting.

REDSKINS

So already we see that the title of G.M., is nothing more than a title and guarantees nothing. It’s like some companies giving the janitor the title of “Sanitation Engineer,” when in actuality the man still has to throw out the trash and mop the floors. :laugh:

Then we come to the Redskins: So how do the Redskins decide who to draft and who to sign as a free agent? Well it may come as a surprise that its not Joe Gibbs or Vinny Cerrato, or Dan Snyder, from what I have observed and picked up. At least not entirely. First of all everyone seems to have some input: Gibbs, Cerrato, Snyder, position coaches and the scouts. And Gibbs it appears has the final say. Any serious disagreements with Cerrato, then Snyder breaks the tie.

But here is where it may surprise you. After Cerrato and the scouts assemble the raw data and rate the players based on Gibbs criteria: ability, character, etc., etc., Gibbs appears to make his FINAL decision based heavily on the judgment of his position coaches. Just like the Pittsburgh Steelers!

How do I know that? Its there if you just take the time and read between the lines. Take the 2005 draft for instance.

About drafting Robert McCune in the 5th round, Gibbs was quoted in the media stating: I really trust Dale’s [Lindsey] judgment on linebackers. He [Lindsey] had him much higher in the draft and we thought he was going to go much higher. I feel real good about that.”

About drafting Nehemiah Broughton in the 7th round, Gibbs was quoted in the media stating: “Earnest Byner went down and had a workout with him personally at the campus. We really like him. We think he fits in very well with us. Gibbs said. "To be quite truthful, Earnest was upset we didn't take him awhile back. He got kind of emotional about it, so we figured we better give him his way, or he was going to beat the slop out of me."

About drafting Manuel White in the 4th round, Gibbs was quoted in the media stating: “We went out last week and we sent Rennie (Simmons) and Earnest (Byner) and he had a real good workout with them. He gives us a big back, so we will use him there some to carry the football. We also feel like he fits in from a special teams standpoint.”

In 2004 when the Redskins were torn between drafting Sean Taylor and Kellen Winslow, I remember Gibbs saying they were really on the fence even up to the day of the draft. Then he said that Greg Williams finally convinced him to draft Taylor on draft day. Unfortunately, I didn’t retain that quote, so I can’t show it to you. But I think my memory is correct there.

So all the evidence I have seen indicates that Gibbs relies MAINLY on the input from his position coaches regarding filling a particular team need, before he makes his final decision. So I’m sure Vinny Cerrato has input and gives his opinion, but Vinny doesn’t appear to be that big of a factor in the final say or choice. And I’m sure if some players don’t pan out after some position coaches heralded them, Gibbs may not rely on these same coaches as heavily for input in the future.

In 2004 the Redskins track record on signing free agents was about the best in the league, when they signed and scored hits on Brunell, Griffin, Daniels, Washington, Springs and Barrow. The only player they missed on was Barrow, because he got injured. That’s why I don’t think the Redskins will be giving big signing bonuses to players 30 or over in the future, who are more injury prone, like they formerly did with Mark Carrier and Bruce Smith.

Gibbs believes in acquiring the best players by any means possible: the draft (Taylor, Cooley, Rogers, and McIntosh), trades (Brunell, Portis, Moss and Lloyd) and by free agency.

So its not titles that really count but “the man” -- whoever that happens to be in the organization -- who makes the final decision on who to draft and who to sign. Right now that appears to be Joe Gibbs with heavy input from his position coaches. If in two or three years from now the Redskins are floundering around, then I think this might need to be re-evaluated. But right now it seems to be working fine.

Said coach Joe Gibbs: "They are out there. We do a good job combing the country. But to be quite truthful . . . what we can't weigh and measure out here is your heart and character. Our real good football teams with the Redskins in the past, roughly half of them were [undrafted] free agents. That means that somebody else didn't think they were good enough. Or they weren't good enough to be drafted, we didn't feel like, and they end up being very, very good players for us."

THIS HAS BEEN A PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT

[H-O-G]

:excited:

Wow, I really agree with a lot of what you wrote. I also want to thank you for taking the time to start a thread with some good thought put into it, you don't see too many of these kind of threads any more. You guys better enjoy them while you can.

Good Job inmate running the asylum :thumbsup:

[E-Dog Night]

Good post, except you need to make it longer and back it up with some examples.

[Andre The Giant]

Excellent post. I completely agree.

[thinker]

To further bolster your argument, inmate, it appears that Lindsay really wanted Rocky and Blache really wanted the two defensive tackles as described by Gibbs.

[SonnyJ]

My impression of the operation is this, more or less:

The coaching staff describes the kind of players they are looking for. Vinny and the scouts determine the players that fit the specified criteria. The coaching staff then goes and breaks down the individual players based on that compiled list.

I dunno, kinda makes sense to me. :whoknows:

[Crash1340]

Thats crap we need a GM :40oz: :chug: :beerglass :2drunks:

Kidding. As far as I am concerned coach knows football players and if he says they player is good to go well then I am drinking the koolaid. The draft and free agency is a crap shoot because you will never know how someone is going to play for your team. If you want to talk about how other teams do things then first go cheer for that team second look at how long those coaches/ player personnel people have been in place. For the first time in a long time the Redskins are attempting to build a TEAM both on the field and in the front offices.

Coach Joe Gibbs is in the Hall of Fame....I am not so I am not going to second guess him. Even after he has lost a step he will know more then I ever will about football. Now I need a nap after those beers and that rant

Crash

[MRMADD]

I couldn't disagree more.

You argue that NE and Pittsburgh don't have GMs. Well, they don't have anyone with the GM title -- but they do have strong experienced men (Pioli and Colbert) who partner with their coaches to find talent. Gibbs has Vinny. Doesn't seem fair. It looks like we're tying one hand behind Gibbs' back.

Gibbs simply doesn't have time -- in my opinion, no coach does -- to be his own GM (the role, not the title). And Vinny has proven that he's just not up to the task.

I'd prefer to see the Skins bring in someone strong and independent (and even the Vinny lovers can't argue he's either of those) who can help Gibbs in this capacity. I don't care if the guy gets the GM title -- it's just a title -- as long as we have someone smarter and better than Vinny doing the legwork for Gibbs. You simply can't argue that Vinny got his job -- and kept his job throughout some tumultuous years -- because of anything other than his friendship with Snyder. Their kids play together. It ain't talent that landed Vinny where he is.

You say that the coaches do the final scouting, etc., in this organization -- but that's true everywhere. The problem is that the coaches are given a shortlist of players by... the GM (or equivalent). In our case, Vinny is the filter. Our coaches don't watch film on every player out there. They watch film and meet with those players that are filtered through the scouting organization. That seems to be the problem -- our scouting organization, led by Vinny, has been a miserable failure for years.

Could it just be bad luck? I know you guys blame all the bad picks (Taylor Jacobs, etc) on previous coaches, and the lack of success in rounds 3-7 on just plain bad luck, but is it really a coincidence that the one constant during those years was Vinny? He has been here for 7 years and has had piss-poor luck outside of rounds one and two the entire time. I mean, isn't that what he's paid to do? Drafting in the first round is pretty easy. The yield rate is high. You get something like 20% stars, 20% busts, and the rest in between (someone has those stats, right?). It's the later rounds where it gets hard. And it seems like we're playing with a stacked deck with Vinny in charge. I'm not expecting him to find a Tom Brady, but is it too much to ask to find a couple of special teamers, backup linemen, and maybe some depth elsewhere? The Skins mid to late round picks seem to hang around for a year or two as deep backups and then get cut. None of them emerge as quality backups, much less starters. Yes, they've found a couple of undrafted guys lke Pierce, but I think if you went back and look at all 29 picks Vinny has made in rounds 4-7 and just used the "monkey and a dartboard" technique, you'd probably do just as well.

Now, given Gibbs' preference for experienced players, and Snyder's open checkbook, maybe the draft just doesn't matter that much. If so, scouting is less important. It's much easier to evaluate experienced free agents than college players -- and their are fewer of them to evaluate. So maybe the Skins can get by with one of the worst GMs (again, the role, not the title) in the league.

Answer me this: can you envision a scenario where Vinny feels strongly that the Skins need to draft a certain player, and Gibbs disagrees... and the Skins draft the player? I seriously doubt it. And that's the problem: Gibbs needs someone strong enough to help him do his job, even if they butt heads like he did with Beathard. This organization deserves better than Vinny.

[DCMONEY]

I've said before I can live with Gibbs the coach. Not his GM abilities. Or whatever title you want to put on it. Until proven otherwise I just feel in todays NFL and system you go draft 1st and free agency 2nd. :2cents:

[Guest santana4prez]

Classic thread.:notworthy The thought and examples that were put into your post Inmate are great and I really cant add anything to this thread but applause :applause: .

I agree 100% with everything you have said and it was a honor reading such a well laided out post. HTTR:helmet:

[bubba9497]

Gibbs simply doesn't have time -- in my opinion, no coach does -- to be his own GM (the role, not the title). And Vinny has proven that he's just not up to the task.

he has?

when? how?

he has had a hand in helping Gibbs find FA an Drat picks, and several players before Gibbs he help bring here are still on the team.

[Newera]

Our player acquisitions since Gibbs has been here have actually been pretty good. Also, Vinny has been here through Turner, Spurrier and Gibbs, and each had a different philosophy on player acquisitions. Who knows what Spurriers was.

There are what I like to call "Gibbs' type of players." Smart, aggressive, hungrey, overlooked, perhaps even recovering from injuries. Which seems to be a lot of the picks in this draft.

Also Snyder has put a lot of money into scouting. I will admit I was disappointed in our draft last year outside of the first two picks. It's simple, we focus on key free agents, and prefer a philosophy of going up and getting the guys we want, versus waiting for some player to drop to us in the early rounds.

[Enter Apotheosis]

Clinton Portis, Mark Brunell, Sean Taylor, Chris Cooley, Santana Moss, David Patten, Carlos Rogers, Brandon Lloyd, Antwaan Randle El, Andre Carter, Adam Archuleta, Christian Fauria, and Rocky McIntosh.

I have a hard time believing that you can argue against the system that brings in that kind of talent.

[MRMADD]

he has?

when? how?

he has had a hand in helping Gibbs find FA an Drat picks, and several players before Gibbs he help bring here are still on the team.

Bubba, you've got to be joking. Here's Vinny's draft record (round in parentheses):

2000 Arrington (1), Samuels (1), Harrison (3), Moore, Sanders, Husak, Cowsette, Howell

2001 Marty's draft

2002 Ramsey (1), Betts (2), Bauman (3), Russell (3), Lott, Royal, Coleman, Grau, Scott, Cartwright

2003 Jacobs (2), Dockery (3), Hamdan

2004 Taylor (1), Cooley (3), Wilson, Molinara

2005 Rogers (1), Campbell (1), White, McCune, Newberry, Nemo

Here's Vinny's draft yield:

Round 1: Six picks, 3 starters (+ Campbell)

Round 2: Two picks, no starters

Round 3: Five picks, 2 starters

All other rounds: Eighteen picks, no starters

That's a total of 31 draft picks, with six first-rounders in five years -- including FOUR TOP 10 PICKS -- and he's only found five starters. Ouch. I'd say that's proof enough.

You guys want to blame everything pre-Gibbs on other coaches, but, of course, Vinny is the one constant in all of these drafts (excluding Marty's draft). If he knew Taylor Jacobs was a bum, for example, and he was too weak to stand up to Spurrier, how in the world do you expect him to stand up to Gibbs when he needs to?

Face it: Vinny's a yes-man, and his drafts have been disastrous. Five starters? Five? If I gave you 31 draft picks, including six first rounders, and you came up with five starters, wouldn't you expect to be fired?

[Om]

Grist for the mill.

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114278

From ExtremeSkins Staff

One of the areas fans are often unclear about is the Redskins' current process for determining team needs and then carrying out subsequent talent evaluation. We know that the process involves Coach Gibbs and his staff), you and your scouting staff, and Dan Snyder. Can you talk about the current arrangement, and/or perhaps walk us through the process that netted C Casey Rabach as an example?

Vinny Cerrato

It'd probably be easier to take you through the Rabach signing.

We have three pro scouts that grade every player on every team. Come the middle of January, once the season's over, we'll sit down and have a meeting just with the Pro Scouts. We will come up with a list of guys they've graded that are graded high enough that they feel are better than what we have and can improve our football team. We take that list then and give it to each position coach.

Say there are 10 offensive linemen for Joe Bugel to watch. There might be five tight ends. So each coach is getting a certain amount of players. They will take that list and they will grade all those players and put them in a ranking order. They take a week to 10 days to do that.

Then we will get together as all the Pro Scouts and -- if it's an offensive position -- all the offensive coaches along with Coach Gibbs. We will sit in a room and the first thing we will do is the Pro Scout will read his report and talk about the guy's background and everything. Then the coach will read his report. Then we'll watch the tape. We'll watch about three or four game tapes on every guy. When we get done watching the tape we write a report, a Redskin report. We go around the room asking everyone their opinion, write the report and come up with a Redskin grade.

We will do that with each guy. Say there's five guys. We'll watch all five. After we watch the second one (we ask) do we like the second one better than the first and we put them in a ranking order. Then when we're done with that position we take our players who are on our football team and put them in that ranking.

So, say, that we're at a position where all of our players are better than anybody in free agency, of course we're not going to try to sign anybody. But if there's a position, say we were looking at centers, and there were three guys better than anybody we have, so we know we can upgrade if we sign one of these guys.

We do that with every position and it takes about two weeks.

Follow question

It takes about two weeks to go through this process? That starts in January?

Vinny Cerrato

I'll tell you exactly, I've got my calendar right here. On January 31 this year the coaches received their list of free agents to review and to rank. Then what happens after that is we come up with a list and we have them in an order and we give it to the owner as our hit list for free agency.

Follow question

When does Dan Snyder get involved? In the Casey Rabach situation, did Dan Snyder contact the agent, did Joe Gibbs, did you? How does that work?

Vinny Cerrato

Tony Agnone was the agent. We called Tony Agnone on March 1. We came back from the combine and at 12:01 a.m. Dan Snyder was on the phone with Tony Agnone working on a deal the first day of free agency. At the same time that Dan's on with Tony Agnone the coaches are on with Casey Rabach at 12:01.

(Telling the player) we're very interested, here's how you fit in, can we set up a visit. Dan's talking contract. Then the next day the kid's coming over because he was from Baltimore otherwise we'd send the jet.

So that's when Dan gets involved

[Om]

And by the way, in case some people have forgotten ... the Redskins enter this season coming off a 10-6 regular season that they ended in a dead sprint, came within a dropped interception of the NFC title game behind a QB playing on one leg, and have so far this offseason added all kinds of speed and playmaking ability to both sides of the ball.

Could it be, perhaps, that the present system is actually, you know, working?

[galentjm]

You guys want to blame everything pre-Gibbs on other coaches, but, of course, Vinny is the one constant in all of these drafts (excluding Marty's draft). If he knew Taylor Jacobs was a bum, for example, and he was too weak to stand up to Spurrier, how in the world do you expect him to stand up to Gibbs when he needs to?

Face it: Vinny's a yes-man, and his drafts have been disastrous. Five starters? Five? If I gave you 31 draft picks, including six first rounders, and you came up with five starters, wouldn't you expect to be fired?

Your point about the Redskins draft success (or lack thereof) prior to the return of Gibbs is well taken, however in my opinion you're looking at the situation from a very narrow perspective. Let me preface my ensuing statement by saying that I believe the entire personnel process to be a team effort and to focus blame, or accolade for that matter, on one individual is neither realistic nor productive.

Furthermore, you cannot fairly evaluate Vinny's performance without also considering the free agents that he undoubtedly had a hand in bringing to Washington. While the team unquestionably whiffed on players like Deion, Carrier and to a lesser extend Smith, one cannot ignore the gems found in Coles (prior to the toe injury), Springs, Thomas, Griffen, Washington, Salave'a, Daniels, etc. Without these players the Skins would never have made the playoffs last season and like it or not Vinny played a big role in making that happen.

The problem that most people have with the Redskins approach to player acquisitions is that it strays from the beaten path. Plenty of teams avoid making big moves through free agency simply because their franchises' lack the budget to do so. Be it they are hamstrung by a penny pinching owner, or they exist in a small market area these teams for all intents and purposes have no choice but to build through the draft.

The Redskins however are not confined by such limitations. We have an owner who is willing to take whatever measures necessary to put a winning product on the field. In today's NFL despite the claims of "experts" such as Pete Prisco, free agency, when executed correctly, is a viable means in which to improve a football team. In my opinion teams that do not use free agency to the fullest extent possible are not taking advantage of EVERY resource available in which to improve their football team. The salary cap is use it or lose it, and while the Reskins' way of doing things may not be the most cost effective strategy they have the means necessary to conduct business anyway they see fit.

[Fury010]

I cannot agree more.....When we drafted Brian Mitchell, did anyone know who he was? Then there's Raleigh Mackenzie, Monte Coleman, Mark Murphy...the list goes on and on. Joe Gibbs knows talent...everyone does. The difference is that Joe, most times, sees what other don't.

[dchogs]

wow... this is like extremeskins circa 2001-2003. excellent posts by inmate, madd, and galent!

it seems to me the system is working to the organization's satisfaction... you don't hear gibbs, williams, saunders, etc complaining about the way its working, even if you read between the lines. if the coaches are happy with the set-up, so am i. my only concern is how the system will work in the future when we don't have a hall of fame coach there to throw his weight around. hopefully, williams, if he gets/accepts the HC job, will be able to influence vinny and snyder in a fashion similar to gibbs and produce a working system that everyone is still comfortable with.

[MRMADD]

Furthermore, you cannot fairly evaluate Vinny's performance without also considering the free agents that he undoubtedly had a hand in bringing to Washington. .

That's an interesting comment. I can, however, evaluate his draft prowess without considering free agents, right? And, based on the evidence, he's been mediocre in the draft. So what you're saying is that given Gibbs' preference for veterans and Snyder's willingness to spend for FAs, we should just punt the draft altogether?

I disagree with you. If you're going to draft -- and the Skins have drafted 31 players in Vinny's five drafts, not counting this year -- why not do it well?

You're saying it's ok that we're lousy at drafting because we're good at buying free agents. I disagree. We should be good at both. The guy standing in the way of the Skins succeeding in the draft appears to be, based on the evidence, Vinny Cerrato. And if you're right that Cerrato is so good at finding FAs, why not make that his job and give someone else the college scouting gig?

Why accept mediocrity?

[MRMADD]

wow... this is like extremeskins circa 2001-2003. excellent posts by inmate, madd, and galent!

it seems to me the system is working to the organization's satisfaction... you don't hear gibbs, williams, saunders, etc complaining about the way its working,QUOTE]

This kind of bothers me. I see this a lot on ES: "Joe Gibbs says it's working... Joe Gibbs says we don't need another kicker... Joe Gibbs says Patrick is his QB..." Can you cite one example of Gibbs publicly bad-mouthing a player or colleague -- even if he's just about to give that person the boot? I can't.

Joe Gibbs follows an old Army maxim: praise in public, criticize in private. So I don't think Joe Gibbs would ever, ever say, "I think Vinny is doing a lousy job." So we don't really know -- and likely never will -- what Gibbs thinks of Cerrato. I think (just my opinion) that he knows Vinny is Danny's favorite, so he tolerates him, safe in the knowledge that Joe has all the power and Vinny has been emasculated in the new regime.

I just think that the organization as a whole, and Joe in particular, would benefit from a strong independent GM. I don't think Joe would much like it though, so it's simply not going to happen.

[MRMADD]

I cannot agree more.....When we drafted Brian Mitchell, did anyone know who he was? Then there's Raleigh Mackenzie, Monte Coleman, Mark Murphy...the list goes on and on. Joe Gibbs knows talent...everyone does. The difference is that Joe, most times, sees what other don't.

Funny... how in the world did you conclude that it was Joe Gibbs that found those guys? Didn't he have a GM at the time? Got any evidence to support this assertion?

[MRMADD]

The problem that most people have with the Redskins approach to player acquisitions is that it strays from the beaten path. Plenty of teams avoid making big moves through free agency simply because their franchises' lack the budget to do so. Be it they are hamstrung by a penny pinching owner, or they exist in a small market area these teams for all intents and purposes have no choice but to build through the draft.

.

I don't have a problem with the Skins strategy of signing FAs and using draft picks to acquire experienced players. I like it even better with Joe making the decisions: he would never have tolerated Deion Sanders, Jeff George, or Bruce Smith. I think the strategy is ideal for a coach like Joe who is reluctant to play rookies anyway.

My issue is specific to the draft: here's a weakness on the team, and you guys seem to want to ignore it because we have strengths in other areas. It's a bit like arguing, "Well, our offense blows, but we've got a strong defense!" Joe went out an aggressively fixed the offense instead of tolerating it. Why wouldn't you want to aggressively fix the Skins problems in the draft?

[JPM285181]

And by the way, in case some people have forgotten ... the Redskins enter this season coming off a 10-6 regular season that they ended in a dead sprint, came within a dropped interception of the NFC title game behind a QB playing on one leg, and have so far this offseason added all kinds of speed and playmaking ability to both sides of the ball.

Could it be, perhaps, that the present system is actually, you know, working?

OM, I could not agree with you more. I think that some seem to judge based on pre Gibbs system and clearly the present way appears to be working well. Superbowl contender by 3rd year in system, some need to put the microscope away!

[Om]

I'm curious, MADD. At what point does the fact the what the Redskins are doing is clearly working enter into the equation? The "we can do better than Vinny" line of thinking was a whole lot easier to understand and support 3 or 4 years ago (hell, I made it too back then). Today though, the team is coming off a successful playoff season and by almost any reasoning is entering THIS season as a legititmate contender.

Where's the fire?