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Why the Redskins don't need a G.M. - Essay


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Two words: JOE GIBBS. Do you really believe the Skins would be a playoff team last year without him? Seriously?

And do you really believe that if Joe Gibbs didn't think Vinny was an asset he would have him here and actually have input? And before you spout off the "Danny won't let him fire him" line, he already let Marty friggin Schottenheimer fire him so you know damn well he would let Joe Gibbs fire him or at least move him to a role further away from personnel decisions if he wanted.

It has already been stated several times throughout this thread but Vinny's role is not GM but more of a scouting supervisor. He has input but he isn't going to overrule Joe Gibbs on anything. If Vinny was taking over the GM duties from Joe Gibbs then your concerns would have merit but since there is no indication that will happen anytime soon you are just howling at the moon.

From the evidence I have seen the drafts since Joe Gibbs came back have been pretty good IMO. We have a minimum of 3 starters (Sean Taylor, Chris Cooley, Carlos Rogers) out of the first two drafts with a good chance that a 4th emerges (Jason Campbell) within the next couple of years. We also have 4 other players on the roster (Jim Molinaro, Manuel White, Robert McCune, Nehemiah Broughton). That's 8 of 10 players drafted still on the roster. I know you are going to attempt to bring up Mark Wilson or Jared Newberry but just take a gander over to the Patriots draft list and see how many washouts they have had in the last couple of years.

You keep bringing up past drafts that Vinny has been a part of but those are completely irrelevant since that FO organization is no longer applicable. So when Vinny wins that power struggle with Joe Gibbs and takes over the personnel decisions I will give you kudos but until then I think Vinny is doing a great job at what he is being asked to do. The information that he provided to Joe Gibbs to help him sculpt the current Redskins roster has been exemplary IMO.

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goaldeje,

I think you misunderstand what the job of a GM is. It is basically a combination of Vinnie's job, Gibbs Team President job, and Snyder's job as far as the running of the team is concerned. That's not what we have, and we probably aren't going to have something like that. If Gibbs kicks himself upstairs, the jobs will remain the same.

BTW, it isn't Vinnie's job to stand up to the head coach. That's Snyder's job, and he certainly did that with Spurrier, siding with Vinnie on a couple of personnel decisions. Right now, it is Gibbs job, which does bring up a slight conflict of interest, but I assume that Snyder still plays tiebreaker. Once Gibbs goes upstairs, that isn't as much of a problem.

As an evaluator of talent, Gibbs sure seems happy with Vinnie.

Jason

I understand, and think we are probably stuck on semantics. I would disagree that Vinny/GM shouldn't have to stand up to the coach. If the GM feels the coach is making an enormous mistake by signing/drafting a player, the GM should have the concern of the team in mind and address his concern with the coach. I understand that with Gibbs, a hybrid is being formed, one I'm evry comfortable with as long as Gibbs is around. It's after Gibbs that I'm not so sure. Again, why not have someone is a damned good talent evaluator in the front office who can counter-balance GW? Seems like a good idea to me.

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Your excuses for Vinny are not compelling. If Vinny was doing a good job pre-Gibbs, then Gibbs wouldn't need to completely overhaul the roster. But he did.

Gibbs overhalled the roster in 81/82 as well. How many guys were left from the Jack Pardee era in 1982 or 83? So I guess that means Bobby Beathard was doing a pretty lousy job at the time too.

Joe T (not a Beathard player)

Riggins (not a Beathard player)

Starke (not a Beathard player)

Moseley (not a Beathard player)

Coleman (Beathard pick)

Warren (Beathard pick)

Monk (Beathard pick)

Bostic (Beathard CFA)

Butz (not a Beathard player)

Olkewicz (Beathard pick)

Milot (Beathard pick)

Murphy (not a Beathard player)

Off the top of my head, these are the key contributors to Gibbs' early teams that were a member of the Skins before Gibbs got there. As you see, Bobby Beathard is responsible for only 6 of them. Is that an indictment of Bobby Beathard's drafting/player acquisition during that time Pre-Gibbs? If it is, then Gibbs should be given even more credit as a talent evaluator than he's been given in the past. Beathard "got smart" as soon as Gibbs arrived. Funny how that works. So if Gibbs is a better evaluator of talent than he's been given credit for and he likes the job Vinny and his staff have done the last two years........what's the problem?

Head Coaches want their own players, to ignore the coaching carosel that Vinny had to deal with is just not being fair to the man.

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I understand, and think we are probably stuck on semantics. I would disagree that Vinny/GM shouldn't have to stand up to the coach. If the GM feels the coach is making an enormous mistake by signing/drafting a player, the GM should have the concern of the team in mind and address his concern with the coach. I understand that with Gibbs, a hybrid is being formed, one I'm evry comfortable with as long as Gibbs is around. It's after Gibbs that I'm not so sure. Again, why not have someone is a damned good talent evaluator in the front office who can counter-balance GW? Seems like a good idea to me.

Course, who says that Vinny didn't disagree with Spurrier? As I said, there were two players which Vinny and Spurrier disagreed about. On both situations, Snyder sided with Vinny.

Jason

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Course, who says that Vinny didn't disagree with Spurrier? As I said, there were two players which Vinny and Spurrier disagreed about. On both situations, Snyder sided with Vinny.

Jason

Granted. Let me as you this: if you were able to catch NFL owners and personnel men in a completely honest moment, how highly would they rank Vinny?

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Granted. Let me as you this: if you were able to catch NFL owners and personnel men in a completely honest moment, how highly would they rank Vinny?

Probably not very high, but they also are the same ones who feel that we are going to be in cap hell every year, and we always seem to manage.

What matters is what our guys think of Vinnie.

Jason

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http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155120

When nearly 90 invited rookies joined six draft picks, assistant head coach Gregg Williams felt the personnel department knew his agenda. Williams huddled the scouts after one practice to say thanks for not wasting his time with pointless prospects.

“The acclimation phase is kind of over here,” Williams said. “The organization is really in tune from a personnel department and a coaching department on what kind of players we like having around.”

Gee, Williams sure sounds happy with the personnel deparment. ;)

Jason

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Probably not very high, but they also are the same ones who feel that we are going to be in cap hell every year, and we always seem to manage.

What matters is what our guys think of Vinnie.

Jason

Agreed. So are you going on record (so to speak) as saying you think Vinny is as good as we can get?

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It has already been stated several times throughout this thread but Vinny's role is not GM but more of a scouting supervisor. He has input but he isn't going to overrule Joe Gibbs on anything. If Vinny was taking over the GM duties from Joe Gibbs then your concerns would have merit but since there is no indication that will happen anytime soon you are just howling at the moon.

I think you're a little late to the party. I've argued that the Skins do need a GM -- a true partner to Joe Gibbs -- not a glorified yes-man like Vinny, because the yes-man approach is a proven failure. No, I don't think Vinny is capable of standing up to Gibbs, nor would I ever want him to. Why don't you go back and read first, then write?

You keep bringing up past drafts that Vinny has been a part of but those are completely irrelevant since that FO organization is no longer applicable. So when Vinny wins that power struggle with Joe Gibbs and takes over the personnel decisions I will give you kudos but until then I think Vinny is doing a great job at what he is being asked to do. The information that he provided to Joe Gibbs to help him sculpt the current Redskins roster has been exemplary IMO.

Let's see: Vinny's past track record is irrevelevant now the Joe is here, and at the same time, you credit any success the front office has had since Joe got here to Vinny? Weird circular argument.

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So the revolving door on the coaching staff has nothing to do with the failures of this organization? Really, it is hard to keep some consistancy when you have to rip up the lineup every time you have a coaching change.

Jason

This is what I have been trying to get across in earlier posts in this thread. - Vinny did the job he was asked to for the respective coaches he worked with. It's hard to accurately assess his work when you also clean the slate when a new coach comes in.

A good coach makes a GM or personnel man look good - that is proven by Bethard's track record and Casserley's track record.

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Agreed. So are you going on record (so to speak) as saying you think Vinny is as good as we can get?

That is one of the many questions that all the Vinny supporters are ducking.

It would interesting to have them answer the following questions honestly:

(1) Do you believe the Vinny-led front office has been successful in the draft since he arrived? Do you think finding 5 starters out of 31 picks, including 6 first rounders and 4 top 10 picks, can ever be defined as success?

(2) Do you believe the same Vinny-led front office has been successful in FA since he arrived? Do you believe that his free agent acquisitions before Joe got here were successful as a whole?

(3) Do you believe Vinny is above average or below average compared to his peers in the NFL? Where would you rank him?

(4) Do you think this organization would benefit from having a strong, independent GM to complement Joe and to build for the long term? Do you think Vinny is capable of playing that role?

I'd bet their answers would be:

(1) Coaching turnover! It's Spurrier's fault! Vinny was a helpless pawn!

(2) Yes! Sure, they brought in guys just looking for a paycheck and scumbags who didn't deserve to wear the uniform, but they learned from their mistakes! After Gibbs showed up, they started getting young, high-character guys -- but Gibbs didn't make that change, Vinny and Danny figured it out themselves.

(3) It doesn't matter what others think of them! Joe speaks highly of them publicly, and that's good enough for me. (Like Joe has ever spoken ill of anyone publicly...)

(4) No, everything is working fine! Sure, the Skins sucked for years, but Joe has fixed everything, so no need for changes in the FO.

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That is one of the many questions that all the Vinny supporters are ducking.

.

My stance is that he deserves more of a chance then what he did during the Spurrier years.

I would say his talent is average with the potential to only get better because of the experience he is now getting working with the current staff.

This is the set-up Gibbs wants. - I have to think if Gibbs thought someone else could do the job better, thee way Gibbs wants the job done - a move would have already been made.

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I think you're a little late to the party. I've argued that the Skins do need a GM -- a true partner to Joe Gibbs -- not a glorified yes-man like Vinny, because the yes-man approach is a proven failure. No, I don't think Vinny is capable of standing up to Gibbs, nor would I ever want him to. Why don't you go back and read first, then write?

I did read the thread and I'm asking you to provide evidence to support your claim since nearly every single personnel move that we've made since Gibbs' return has worked out. Until we have a string of terrible personnel decisions then there is absolutely no reason to change the organizational structure we have right now. Vinny is not making the final decisions and there is no threat that he is going to in the near future.

Let's see: Vinny's past track record is irrevelevant now the Joe is here, and at the same time, you credit any success the front office has had since Joe got here to Vinny? Weird circular argument.

I absolutely did not credit Vinny with the success the FO has had other than doing what his job calls for and that is providing information to Joe Gibbs and his coaching staff. I suggest it is your turn to go back read what I said because you clearly didn't catch the meaning the first time around.

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That is one of the many questions that all the Vinny supporters are ducking.

It would interesting to have them answer the following questions honestly:

(1) Do you believe the Vinny-led front office has been successful in the draft since he arrived? Do you think finding 5 starters out of 31 picks, including 6 first rounders and 4 top 10 picks, can ever be defined as success?

Since we don't have a Vinny-led FO now why is this relevant?

(2) Do you believe the same Vinny-led front office has been successful in FA since he arrived? Do you believe that his free agent acquisitions before Joe got here were successful as a whole?

Since we don't have a Vinny-led FO now why is this relevant?

(3) Do you believe Vinny is above average or below average compared to his peers in the NFL? Where would you rank him?

Who are the scouting directors at the 31 other NFL teams?

(4) Do you think this organization would benefit from having a strong, independent GM to complement Joe and to build for the long term? Do you think Vinny is capable of playing that role?

No until we start making bad personnel decisions on a regular basis. Until then these decisions look pretty sound:

Mark Brunell

Jason Campbell

Todd Collins

Clinton Portis

Santana Moss

James Thrash

David Patten

Brandon Lloyd

Antwaan Randle El

Chris Cooley

Mike Sellers

Christian Fauria

Robert Johnson

Jim Molinaro

Casey Rabach

Tyson Walter

Mike Pucillo

Nic Clemons

Philip Daniels

Andre Carter

Joe Salave'a

Cornelius Griffin

Ryan Boschetti

Demetric Evans

Cedric Killings

Marcus Washington

Warrick Holdman

Khary Campbell

Robert McCune

Carlos Rogers

Shawn Springs

Kenny Wright

Sean Taylor

Adam Archuleta

Pierson Prioleau

Dmitri Patterson

Christian Morton

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I did read the thread and I'm asking you to provide evidence to support your claim since nearly every single personnel move that we've made since Gibbs' return has worked out. Until we have a string of terrible personnel decisions then there is absolutely no reason to change the organizational structure we have right now. Vinny is not making the final decisions and there is no threat that he is going to in the near future.

See, that's where you clearly need to go back to the beginning of the thread. I believe that you fix the roof when the sun is shining -- I won't make that argument again.

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See, that's where you clearly need to go back to the beginning of the thread. I believe that you fix the roof when the sun is shining -- I won't make that argument again.

:doh:

But Gibbs doesn't think the roof is in need of fixing. Rain or shine. He's the President of Football Operations.....it's his call.

Even if you're right, and Vinny is the worst personell man in the league, he's not going anywhere as long as Gibbs is here because Gibbs clearly likes him and dare I say it.....trusts him.

So it's all a moot issue anyway.

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Since we don't have a Vinny-led FO now why is this relevant?

Who leads the FO? Isn't Vinny the VP of Football Operations? Doesn't the entire FO report to him? Who do you imagine leads the FO?

Figures, though... rather than answering questions, you have to duck them because your position is rather undefensible.

This debate is tiresome. You have, on one side, some defenders of Vinny who don't recognize any of his faults -- except those in the distant past that he "learned from". On the other side you have those of us who'd like to fix a weakness in the organization, which is a lack of leadership in the FO, and blame that lack of leadership, fairly or unfairly, on Vinny (and, by extension, Danny). Those two sides will clearly never reconcile.

I'm not really opposed to Vinny staying, as long as he's in a supporting role. I'd just like to see a strong, independent GM in place for the post-Gibbs years because if we have one we're more likely to avoid the kinds of playoff droughts we've suffered through.

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Who leads the FO? Isn't Vinny the VP of Football Operations? Doesn't the entire FO report to him? Who do you imagine leads the FO?

I think what he means is Joe Gibbs is team president - that's all. - Some may report to Vinny, but Vinny reports to Gibbs.

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Who leads the FO? Isn't Vinny the VP of Football Operations? Doesn't the entire FO report to him? Who do you imagine leads the FO?

And who is his boss? That's right, Joe Gibbs, who holds the title of Team President.

To answer your questions:

(1) Do you believe the Vinny-led front office has been successful in the draft since he arrived? Do you think finding 5 starters out of 31 picks, including 6 first rounders and 4 top 10 picks, can ever be defined as success?

Considering that the attitude of this team has been to build through FA, even before Gibbs arrived here, I think he has done fine considering the turnover. Really, it is hard to develop late round picks when you turn over your staff, and what you were looking for in players have changed.

(2) Do you believe the same Vinny-led front office has been successful in FA since he arrived? Do you believe that his free agent acquisitions before Joe got here were successful as a whole?

Yes, I do. I think that's one area where we have done pretty well, since the year Snyder decided to play fantasy football with our team. There weren't too many outright misses, and even then, Vinny wasn't always to blame.

Take Trotter, for example. Doing some research, he's a guy that Marvin Lewis really lobbied hard to sign, and felt that he could turn him into Ray Lewis. Unfortunatly for us, he was wrong. The same that Marty was wrong that Jeff George could be turned into a good starter.

(3) Do you believe Vinny is above average or below average compared to his peers in the NFL? Where would you rank him?

Can't really say, since it is hard to judge front office people without looking deeper, but I can say he's got a better record than Casserly.

(4) Do you think this organization would benefit from having a strong, independent GM to complement Joe and to build for the long term? Do you think Vinny is capable of playing that role?

I think the question is beside the point, since the staff works well in this arraingment, and there is no reason to mess with a good thing.

As to the question "could we do better"? Maybe, but we could do worse as well. Much better to work with the guys you have and improve that way, rather than get rid of a guy, and wonder if it is going to get better with a new guy.

Jason

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Who leads the FO? Isn't Vinny the VP of Football Operations? Doesn't the entire FO report to him? Who do you imagine leads the FO?

Vinny is VP of Football Operations the same way that Greg Blache is the Defensive Coordinator. As has been spelled out too many times to count in this thread alone, Joe Gibbs leads the FO. It matters not whether you feel he has enough time to be effective in the role of GM because so far in 2 full seasons he had made a ton of successful acquisitions. There have been exactly zero major acquisitions that didn't succeed. Michael Barrow was signed to a modest contract. Walt Harris was at least serviceable as a nickle back. Our draft failures were 5th and 6th rounders.

I understand your concern about a Coach needing someone else's input as almost a separation of power but until we see signs of failure I'm not on board with you.

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As to the question "could we do better"? Maybe, but we could do worse as well. Much better to work with the guys you have and improve that way, rather than get rid of a guy, and wonder if it is going to get better with a new guy.

Jason

That is the reason for the disconnect between the two sides, imo. One side would prefer to fix a problem before it develops. The other when it (if it?) develops. Difference of philosophies. I have every confidence in GW as a coach. I don't know much at all about his personnel decisions. Would it be such an awful thing to have a better talent evaluator than Vinny? My contention is that it would be a good thing, and might save us later, if it turns out that Vinny has NOT learned anything from his past mistakes or from Gibbs.

Ah, but sometimes the chase is so fun. :silly:

I'm enjoying this about as much as I enjoyed my arguments with AJ_Skins.

Jason

Are you comparing Madd and myself to AJ_Skins? :mad:

;)

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In any case, no point in starting the search for a GM. Joe doesn't want one, and I'd venture to guess that Gregg Williams is savvy enough to realize that the situation -- where the front office is clearly subordinate to the coaching staff -- would be nice for him too.

MRMADD, I think you give to much power to Vinny that is not backed up by the descriptions Gibbs and Williams give about how they approach the draft. According to Gibbs it is team approach and according to Williams interview this weekend there is a board that describes the qualities that are expected, ie. Character, heart....etc. Gibbs has established the criteria that are to be used in evalating talent by the scouts and certainly the coaches express their areas of need. If Vinny and the scouting staff aren't on the same page, don't you think it would be bye bye Vinny.

By the way, what do you base your comment on that Joe doesn't want a GM. Are you reading between the lines again or are you are you accepting that Joe says (Williams also) he is happy with the way the front office is working now.

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