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Why the Redskins don't need a G.M. - Essay


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Couldn't an intern do this? In the legal world' date=' this is what law clerks are for.[/quote']

More like a manager, who has guys working under him, and produces reports for his bosses.

Maybe I've mis-judged him. I actually though Vinny had a job of some importance.

After reading this interview, I've changed my entire argument. Vinny can keep his job.

Thanks for finally realizing what we've been trying to tell you all of this team. Actually, is job is important, just not as important as you were thinking.

Now, can we go and hire a real draft guru since we still stink in that area?

Funny, I thought that was Gibbs' job. Vinny gets the list of players, and everyone sits down and decides who they want. If you are looking for a guy who has the mystical ability to make the right choice every time, he isn't out there. The draft is still a crapshoot. All you can do is bring in the players you think are the best fit, and hope it works out as planned.

Jason

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Vinny Cerrato has given us very little from the 3rd round on. Anybody could have picked Rogers or Taylor...lets face it we haven't drafted well since Beathard was here.

Maybe it wasn't Cerrato, but we did pick Taylor over Winslow and picked up Cooley in the third. Those are two franchise-changing picks. Plus we didn't choose Dot Eater in lieu of Rogers, and traded to get Campbell ( I know, we'll see, but I'm sure he'll do wonderfully here).

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Funny, I thought that was Gibbs' job. Vinny gets the list of players, and everyone sits down and decides who they want. If you are looking for a guy who has the mystical ability to make the right choice every time, he isn't out there. The draft is still a crapshoot. All you can do is bring in the players you think are the best fit, and hope it works out as planned.

Jason

OK, I get all that. What then did Vinny during Spurrier's tenure? Norv's? Was he in charge of anything then? Or was Snyder calling all the shots for player acquisitions?

I still agree with Lombardi by the way: getting a draft guru in could only help Gibbs & Co. If that isn't Vinny's job, all the better! But finding someone who's speciality that is would be nice, no?

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OK, I get all that. What then did Vinny during Spurrier's tenure? Norv's? Was he in charge of anything then? Or was Snyder calling all the shots for player acquisitions?

I'll take it year-by-year. Course, this is an outsiders point of view.

2000: Based on the FA we picked up, this sure seems like the Danny made most of the calls, since it seemed like players were aquired based on their name, and not on their current ability.

2002: This seems closest to the arrangement that is currently here, that everyone had equal say. There was a lot of deference to the coaches, since Spurrier picked up a lot of Florida guys, and Marvin lobbied hard to get Trotter.

2003: It seems like Spurrier lost a little power here, and things were leaning a bit more toward Vinny's direction and his scouting reports. A lot of the choices seem to be more toward getting the type of player that Spurrier needed to make his offense go.

So, 2003 is probably the closest to Vinny being a decisionmaker in my view, and not a real strong decisionmaker at that.

I still agree with Lombardi by the way: getting a draft guru in could only help Gibbs & Co. If that isn't Vinny's job, all the better! But finding someone who's speciality that is would be nice, no?

Well, I'd only see them doing that if they felt they weren't getting the type of players they wanted in the draft. Considering Gibbs' and Williams' comments on the quality of the players they are getting, they sure seem quite happy with who they are drafting.

Jason

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Well, I'd only see them doing that if they felt they weren't getting the type of players they wanted in the draft. Considering Gibbs' and Williams' comments on the quality of the players they are getting, they sure seem quite happy with who they are drafting.

I will never understand why people think football coaches tell the truth in interviews. Have you ever heard a coach say, "Boy...that draft was lousy...."

Gibbs and Williams may say that the drafts have been good, but they would be doing what he in the legal profession call "lying."

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I will never understand why people think football coaches tell the truth in interviews. Have you ever heard a coach say' date=' "Boy...that draft was lousy...."

Gibbs and Williams may say that the drafts have been good, but they would be doing what he in the legal profession call "lying."[/quote']

True, you won't hear a direct statment like that, unless forced. But, usually you can tell when the coaches are talking around a subject. These guys seem to be pretty straightforward, for the most part, and if they are excited about the players they have gotten, I tend to believe them.

Jason

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I will never understand why people think football coaches tell the truth in interviews. Have you ever heard a coach say, "Boy...that draft was lousy...."

I don't know about other football coaches, but my sense is that Gibbs avoids lying in interviews or otherwise. His appeal isn't just in acquiring high character guys, but in being a high character guy himself. This isn't to say that he isn't smart enough to know when to not say something or when to use language that is a bit more open to interpretation. On the contrary, I think he is very good at that sort of thing. But everything I know about the guy tells me that he's not going to go out of his way to say something that isn't true. When you put that together with him going out of his way to praise the job the scouts did in this year's draft, I think you have little choice but to take him at his word. To me, the much bigger stretch is to make assumptions that the real situation is exactly the opposite of what Gibbs described. I just don't see how someone can support such a position.

--Phin

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The Steelers were in negotiations during the draft to trade with Atlanta for TJ Duckett.

Trading away Parker? I doubt it. As I said in my post, however, I've no doubt they'll try to get someone to fill in Bettis' role. TJ Duckett sounds like just the sort of back to do exactly that.

--Phin

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I don't know about other football coaches, but my sense is that Gibbs avoids lying in interviews or otherwise. --Phin

Who says he's lying? Go back and listen to his comments about Ramsey last year -- did he ever criticize him? Hell, he barely criticized Arrington -- and then only in a roundabout way. Gibbs doesn't bad-mouth anyone publicly. He's not lying -- he's just only telling the positive story publicly.

Here's an example for you: In November, Coach Joe Gibbs said he believes the Redskins have ample playmakers among the wide receivers: "I think we've got other people. You're right. If it's just Santana, then we've got a problem because people can take one guy away," Gibbs said. "But I think we've got other receivers there."

And what is the first thing he does in the offseason? Overhauls the receiving corps.

He wasn't lying at the time -- he was hoping guys like Jacobs would step up, and he was putting a postive spin on it publicly. But don't fool yourselves into thinking that Joe Gibbs lays all of his cards on the table in public interviews. You should know better.

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Who says he's lying?

Umm...Lombardi's Kid Brother did.

Gibbs and Williams may say that the drafts have been good, but they would be doing what he in the legal profession call "lying."

Nevertheless, let me address your point.

Here's an example for you: In November, Coach Joe Gibbs said he believes the Redskins have ample playmakers among the wide receivers: "I think we've got other people. You're right. If it's just Santana, then we've got a problem because people can take one guy away," Gibbs said. "But I think we've got other receivers there."

Although I don't have the context, it certainly appers that Gibbs was responding to a question about the quality of our wide receivers. In such a case where he is backed into a corner by a direct question, you are absolutely right that Gibbs is smart enough to talk about the positives and defend the abilities of his current players. But this is entirely different from Gibbs approaching the stadium and opening his statement with something like, "I've got to say first of all that I think our receivers are doing a great job." When Gibbs heaped praise on the scouting for this year's draft and the quality of player they brought to rookie camp, it wasn't in response to a media question backing him into a corner. He wasn't trying to protect anyone with a carefully worded and politically astute deflection. He volunteered the praise.

So, once again, every indication and all available evidence supports a conclusion that Gibbs thinks Vinny is doing a good job. Speculation to the contrary isn't just made in the absence of evidence, but actually goes directly against the evidence.

--Phin

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From Mr. Madd

Also, I don't know that you can declare the drafts since Joe got back an unqualified success, either. Still some headscratchers in there. Reed Doughty is one that really could provide the proof: he's the one guy that we know the coaches didn't meet with before the draft. Had to be Vinny's pick, right?

So there's our answer: I don't really expect Doughty to make the squad, despite having no competition at backup safety. If he can actually play despite every independent scouting service panning him, then Vinny must have done something right, didn't he? I know it's unfair and kinda silly to pin it all on one player, but this is the least ambiguous situation we've got. Any Vinny-lovers care to place a little bet? Are you willing to back your faith in Vinny with a little friendly wager? I'm game.

I'll bet that Reed Doughty doesn't make the active roster. Anyone care to bet that he does? This is a good bet for you -- the Skins have no depth in the defensive backfield -- they need him to step up. He's got every chance in the world. And the bet? Loser changes his handle to Mrs. Cerrato for a month. Who's in? Everybody's welcome!

Geez. I must have hit a raw nerve with this thread -- judging by the number of posts and hits. :laugh: Either that or we miss the good ole debates of a few years ago on football or should I dare mention it again, the existence of god or non-existence of god? :rubeyes:

And where is Art and Bulldog on this debate? I guess its too deep and heavy for them. :silly:;) And while I'm at it, what happened to that whimp [buddha > :anon:] this year, who didn't show up for our annual draft bet? He would have lost again.

O.k., Mr. Madd, after giving it some thought, I will take you up on your bet, even though the odds are against me on a 6th round draft pick. But being a draftnik, I think I am a good college draft evaluator. And with Miss Cleo reading the future for me -- I painted her toe nails last week -- I can't lose, can I? :laugh:

Mr. Madd, I think you have made some wrong assumptions about Reed Doughty and Joe Gibbs. Just because he wasn’t brought in for a visit, doesn’t mean he was a Vinny pick. I think the coaching staff AND front office were in agreement on Doughty and they had interviewed him at the combine; had film on him, and therefore saw no reason to tip their hand to other teams about their intentions of drafting him, by bringing him in for an unnecessary visit. From what Greg Williams said, he fits the criteria that THEY are looking for, such as smarts, toughness, character, etc. So the fact he only ran a 4.60 at his pro day, isn’t that significant, because they believe he has the qualities to be at least a very good special teams player.

Am I a Vinny lover? No. Would I be upset if Gibbs fired Vinny tomorrow? No. So being that Vinny is still here and got a contract extension, evidently Gibbs feels that Vinny is doing his present job very well, which is stacking the draft board for the coaching staff, based on the coaching staffs new criteria for players. Firing Vinny for what he may or may not have done in 2000 and 2003, makes no sense to me. Its as simple as that. If when Joe Gibbs is gone and say Greg Williams becomes head coach, and the ship is starting to list, then maybe you reevaluate whether we need to bring in a G.M. at that time. Although who that G.M. savior would be, I would have no idea at present.

As for the NFL draft, Joe Gibbs doesn't hold draft picks in such high esteem as teams like the Steelers and Patriots, as evidenced by his statement below on 10-24-2005. Gibbs would rather trade draft picks for what he feels and judges to be proven NFL players, then roll the dice in the draft on an unproven college player. The only thing that stops Gibbs from finding and stocking the team with 53 top notch players, is the salary cap. :laugh:

“I love free agency for the fact that you can go out and add real quality people who have played in this league,” Gibbs said Monday. “It eliminates some of the guesswork. We all know there’s a risk going from college to pro; we see it every year with guys who are supposed to be stars who don’t make it.”

For example, Gibbs gave up a 2nd (2006) a 2nd (2007) and a 6th (2006) for McIntosh. I like McIntosh, but if I was running the draft, I wouldn't have made that trade. I think at least two good players are better than one, so I would have drafted a good player at the 53rd pick of the 2nd round and I would have traded the 2007 2nd round pick for a 3rd round pick, and I believe I could have drafted another good player in the 3rd round. And I might have gotten lucky with that other 6th round pick too. But thats why I'm a couch potato and Joe Gibbs is a HOF coach. So if this draft doesn't pan out, are we supposed to blame Vinny because all the good draft picks (1st, 2nd (2007)3rd, 4th) were dealt away again?

Anyway, as of the 1st game of the season, here’s the bet Mr. Madd:

If Doughty makes the 53 man roster, I win the bet.

If Doughty is cut and is no longer a Redskin, you win the bet.

If Doughty is cut and signed to the practice squad, its a wash.

If Doughty is injured and cut or given an injury settlement, its a wash.

The loser has to wear Die Hard's dress for 50 posts saying ----- Inmate's b!tch or Mr. Madd's b!tch.

inmatesbch.gif

Do you accept your bet proposal, Mr. Madd? :munchout:

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Finally! One guy takes the bet, and he says he's not even a Vinny lover? Where are the balls on the Vinny lovers? Inmate, you're the only one with a pair. I can't believe the rest of these guys ducked the easiest bet I've ever offered.

Mr. Madd, I think you have made some wrong assumptions about Reed Doughty and Joe Gibbs. Just because he wasn’t brought in for a visit, doesn’t mean he was a Vinny pick.

So the point of the bet, of course, was to demonstrate, one way or the other, whether Vinny has a clue. If Reed is Joe's pick, then the bet is meaningless. Or are you trying to have it both ways: if Reed Doughty doesn't make the squad, you can always go back to claiming that he wasn't Vinny's pick? But I'm still game if you are.

Anyway, as of the 1st game of the season, here’s the bet Mr. Madd:

If Doughty makes the 53 man roster, I win the bet.

If Doughty is cut and is no longer a Redskin, you win the bet.

If Doughty is cut and signed to the practice squad, its a wash.

If Doughty is injured and cut or given an injury settlement, its a wash.

The loser has to wear Die Hard's dress for 50 posts saying ----- Inmate's b!tch or Mr. Madd's b!tch

No. The bet is clear: he makes the 53 man roster, you win. He doesn't, I win. There are too many weasely ways out otherwise. Man up, Inmate. No fake injuries, no practice squad, no NFL Europe. This bet is so easy for you anyway -- the Skins have no depth in the defensive backfield and anyone who can halfway impress the coaches should make the squad. They NEED the guy to make it. You've waited to see the rookie camp results, and the coaches love the guy. I made the original bet so freakin' easy, and you still have to try to weasel? Come on -- it's not a hard bet.

I'll take your dress and "*****" title if I lose. You can wear the dress and be "Mrs. Cerrato", though, when I win -- I don't really want a man-*****. Fifty posts, huh? That's a good one -- better than my one month. You could wait out a month. But 50 posts -- that's ballsy.

I hope Reed Doughty is a steal, so I'll be rooting for you. But, unfortunately, I think your faith in Vinny is misplaced. September's gonna be a hard month for you...

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For example, Gibbs gave up a 2nd (2006) a 2nd (2007) and a 6th (2006) for McIntosh. I like McIntosh, but if I was running the draft, I wouldn't have made that trade. I think at least two good players are better than one, so I would have drafted a good player at the 53rd pick of the 2nd round and I would have traded the 2007 2nd round pick for a 3rd round pick, and I believe I could have drafted another good player in the 3rd round. And I might have gotten lucky with that other 6th round pick too. But thats why I'm a couch potato and Joe Gibbs is a HOF coach. So if this draft doesn't pan out, are we supposed to blame Vinny because all the good draft picks (1st, 2nd (2007)3rd, 4th) were dealt away again?

Considering the dropoff in talent as viewed by the experts, if you felt the guy was your best bet at the LB position, then you have to get the guy. It doesn't matter what you spend if at the end, you got the right guy.

Also, considering that most of the draft picks are going to have a tough fight to make the roster, because we are so deep, I don't think more players are the solution.

So the point of the bet, of course, was to demonstrate, one way or the other, whether Vinny has a clue. If Reed is Joe's pick, then the bet is meaningless. Or are you trying to have it both ways: if Reed Doughty doesn't make the squad, you can always go back to claiming that he wasn't Vinny's pick? But I'm still game if you are.

Which is why most of us didn't take you up on the offer. How can you prove a pick was a Vinny pick? You can't, particuarly since most of the picks are made with heavy consultation with the coaching staff.

Personally, tho, I think Reed will make the team, and really has the best chance out of the late picks. Course, whether or not he does make the team, it doesn't make your point.

Jason

Jason

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Which is why most of us didn't take you up on the offer. How can you prove a pick was a Vinny pick? You can't, particuarly since most of the picks are made with heavy consultation with the coaching staff.

Jason

Ahhh... but Reed is different. All the other picks were made with "heavy consultation with the coaching staff" -- they were brought in to meet with the coaches. Not Reed. The Skins didn't bring him in before they drafted him. They didn't attend his pro day. All they did was briefly meet him at the Combine. As Gibbs said, they relied heavy on their scout for this one. The scout, of course, reports up to... Vinny.

Clear now?

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I'll take your dress and "*****" title if I lose. You can wear the dress and be "Mrs. Cerrato", though, when I win -- I don't really want a man-*****. Fifty posts, huh? That's a good one -- better than my one month. You could wait out a month. But 50 posts -- that's ballsy.

I could wait out a month? Boy you sure are a suspicious dude? :laugh: This has been the standard bet on the website for years -- which Die Hard and I started four years ago.

Finally! One guy takes the bet, and he says he's not even a Vinny lover? Where are the balls on the Vinny lovers? Inmate, you're the only one with a pair. I can't believe the rest of these guys ducked the easiest bet I've ever offered.

No. The bet is clear: he makes the 53 man roster, you win. He doesn't, I win. There are too many weasely ways out otherwise. Man up, Inmate. No fake injuries, no practice squad, no NFL Europe.

I made the original bet so freakin' easy, and you still have to try to weasel? Come on -- it's not a hard bet.

No, I'm not trying to weasel. I'm not a Vinny lover. I could care less, one way or the other about Vinny. But Joe Gibbs and Snyder gave him a contract extension. However, injuries are a fact of life in the NFL. Doughty could very easily get injured enough to be cut. If Doughty gets injured the bet is a wash and it is just as fair for you as me. I think everyone reading this thread will agree my conditions are fair. Doughty has to make the team or not make the team, strictly on his ability -- with no injuries involved in the equation. It doesn't matter if there are any fake injuries or not -- neither of us win in that scenario.

I think you are the one now trying to weasel Mr. Madd. You have the advantage. The draft is a crapshoot. Most 6th round picks don't make final rosters. And I'm sure the Redskin roster is not set yet and they will bring in a veteran safety before September rolls around. After all they only have 5 safeties on the roster at present, the fewest number of players at any position besides QB.

So let me know what you decide. Or upon second thought, are you afraid of Miss Cleo now? :laugh:

I know this is a real heavy bet for you, with a lot at stake. I mean if you lose you will be held up to ridicule by 55,000 website members; you'll probably have to sell your house; your wife might leave you; and you could be banished to Mississippi or Devil's Island. So take a week off work to really think this thing out and give it some more thought, and then let me know your decision. :laugh:

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Considering the dropoff in talent as viewed by the experts, if you felt the guy was your best bet at the LB position, then you have to get the guy. It doesn't matter what you spend if at the end, you got the right guy.

Also, considering that most of the draft picks are going to have a tough fight to make the roster, because we are so deep, I don't think more players are the solution.

Well being that the draft is a crapshoot, that's logically why I think it's better to have 2 or 3 rolls of the dice then just 1. Or don't you remember the time Gibbs and company traded UP in the draft (gave up TWO #1's), and Desmond Howard bombed. :doh:

You can always find room for another GOOD player somewhere on a roster.

But like I said my drafting theory was hypothetical and that's why we are couch potatoes and Gibbs is a HOF coach. I hope Gibbs is right.

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No, I'm not trying to weasel. I'm not a Vinny lover. I could care less, one way or the other about Vinny. But Joe Gibbs and Snyder gave him a contract extension. However, injuries are a fact of life in the NFL. Doughty could very easily get injured enough to be cut. If Doughty gets injured the bet is a wash and it is just as fair for you as me.

All right, you're on: if he makes the 53 man roster, you win. If he gets injured and gets cut, it's a wash. If he doesn't make the roster for any other reason, including stashed on practice squad, I win.

I think you are the one now trying to weasel Mr. Madd. You have the advantage. The draft is a crapshoot. Most 6th round picks don't make final rosters. And I'm sure the Redskin roster is not set yet and they will bring in a veteran safety before September rolls around. After all they only have 5 safeties on the roster at present, the fewest number of players at any position besides QB.

The Skins are very, very thin in the defensive backfield. This guy doesn't have to be very good to make this team. You've got the ideal situation for Reed Doughty. I've been very generous. There was never any hope that I'd weasel -- you're on.

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