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Fringe site: U.S. prepares to face U.N. on torture as Amnesty report blasts 'war cri

Crazyhorse1

By Crazyhorse1
in The Tailgate

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chomerics

chomerics

Posted
Posted
And the reason is that chom and every other lib would beat the holy hell out of a terrorist if it could have prevented 9-11.

Absolutely!!! If I had the chance, I would kill myself no questions asked to stop an atrocity like 9-11.

I am not for sticking up for terrorists by any means, but instead want my country NOT to stoop to their level. I don't want to read about us extriditing terrorists to secret locals and to other governments so they can be tortured, it is not what our country stands for. The second you start behaving like the enemy, you have ALREADY lost the war, because you will NEVER have the support at home needed.

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nelms

nelms

Posted
Posted
Oakton, all I did was call you out for being the boards biggest hypocrite. You CONSTANTLY attack other posters without bounds, and cry "woe is me, I'm the repressed one" when you are called on it. You rarely add anything to this forum except to incite flame wars with your constant liberal is the bogeyman drivel.

Instead of saying WHY you think the post is dumb, you say "it is one of the dumbest posts ever seen on the board." Yet, you constantly add nothing to the discussion, and instead only try to incite people with your hate filled posts.

If you want to get into a discussion about the topic, THEN DO SO, otherwise you are wasting bandwidth for this site, and good oxygen for the rest of us in this country.

Will you please just :stfu: stop trolling and go back to the Patriots board. :doh:

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Johnny Punani2

Johnny Punani2

Posted
Posted
Yes.

Their agenda is to prevent human rights abuses.

Does AI tend to "pick on" countries like the US more than they do to, say, China? That's something that's more of an opinion than a measurable characteristic, but I'd say "yes".

Does this mean AI is "anti-american"? No.

What I'd agree is an uneven treatment of "open" societies is, to me, more indicative of the fact that people complain more in open societies.

AI goes in to China to look for human rights abuses, and every Chinese they talk to smiles and tells them that "eveything fine here". (While glancing nervously at their government escort).

They go to the US to look for human rights abuses, and they discover that every single person in jail says they're innocent, and half of them say they were beaten by the LAPD. (And it's, in fact, likely that several of them were.)

HOWEVER, their def of human rights abuses and the avg person are different. That is the problem.

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OaktonSkins/BushFan

OaktonSkins/BushFan

Posted
Posted
Oakton, all I did was call you out for being the boards biggest hypocrite. You CONSTANTLY attack other posters without bounds, and cry "woe is me, I'm the repressed one" when you are called on it. You rarely add anything to this forum except to incite flame wars with your constant liberal is the bogeyman drivel. Instead of saying WHY you think the post is dumb, you say "it is one of the dumbest posts ever seen on the board." Yet, you constantly add nothing to the discussion, and instead only try to incite people with your hate filled posts.

Do you realize that you still have a few outstanding posts to reply to? You just leave debates with your Donkey tail between your legs as per usual.

Here's what I said in that quote sans your biased editing...

Clearly, I was presenting an analogy to demonstrate just how silly was ashburn's rationalization of why he thinks AI doesn't hold terrorist organizations and state sponsors of terrorism to the same standards as the US. Naturally, in your radical Molotov ****tail-throwing militant rage, you completely misrepresent the truth.

What a stupendous rationalization. Did you come up with that all by your little bitty self? Or did the :insane: horse help you out with that one?

Maybe the FBI should stop pursuing terrorists for the same reason, and instead focus on investigating common citizens and bust them for going 5 MPH over the speed limit.

:rolleyes:

Sheeesh.... Clearly one of the all-time DUMBEST posts ever on this board.

If you want to get into a discussion about the topic, THEN DO SO, otherwise you are wasting bandwidth for this site, and good oxygen for the rest of us in this country.

Chom.... I have been engaged in discourse. Unfortunately, your modus operandi is to IGNORE and ATTACK anyone that disagrees with you. Before you start frothing at the mouth and posting riduculous rants, take a look int he mirror and make sure you perform due diligence by searching the rest of the thread.

As for your last comment... thanks for validating my earlier sentiment...

Ladies and Gentlemen...

Another ad hominem attack brought to you by Chom The Flame Thrower. :dunce:

Why don't you fire up a neuron or two and attack the post, and not the poster?

otherwise you are wasting ... good oxygen for the rest of us in this country.

Oh, and it's a shame that the thought "pull out" never registered that fateful night.

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chomerics

chomerics

Posted
Posted

Maybe if you had actually READ the book, you would know Sun Tzu's philosophy was to avoid war when ever possible. . .

For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill.

Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.

The supreme excellence is to subde the armies of your enemies without even having to fight them.

There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare.

To fight and conquer in all our battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.

Just so you know, you 0wn3d yourself

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chomerics

chomerics

Posted
Posted
Do you realize that you still have a few outstanding posts to reply to? You just leave debates with your Donkey tail between your legs as per usual.

As for your last comment... thanks for validating my earlier sentiment...

Oh, and it's a shame that the thought "pull out" never registered that fateful night.

What have you added to this thread except for EXACTLY what I posted? Your constand "liberal is the bogeyman" bull s***? Anything? I think not.

Here is you ENTIRE contribution to this thread, all you did was troll and incite.

#1 :laugh: :rotflmao: :bfd:

#2 Wisdom? No, he's just been indoctrinated and brainwashed his entire life.

#3 What a stupendous rationalization. Did you come up with that all by your little bitty self? Or did the :insane: horse help you out with that one?

Maybe the FBI should stop pursuing terrorists for the same reason, and instead focus on investigating common citizens and bust them for going 5 MPH over the speed limit.

Sheeesh.... Clearly one of the all-time DUMBEST posts ever on this board.

#4 Must be easy to make that statement when your political perspective is turned upside down.

#5 I'm going to play the world's smallest violin for Chom and The Gang....

I want one of you pacificists to post incontrovertible proof that "torture doesn't work". I'm willing to bet that there are some cases in which torture - and the threat of it - have worked. And if it has worked to the extent that it may have lead to some intel that enaled us to prevent another 9/11 or capture a terrorist leader, then it is well justified. Thank God there are rational, pragmatic people in this world who do not operate exclusively in a silly ideological vacuum. And you can say whatever you want about "International Law" and the UN blah blah blah... but all serious politicians know that, in reality, they are meaningless.

Choice:

1) Torture terrorist and obtain criticial intel preventing terrorist attack which could kill hundreds or thousands;

OR

2) Allow terrorist to abuse our legal system, lose out on actionable intel thereby permitting massive loss of life.

You added absolutely NOTHING to the discussion, and only exhibitited your lack decorum by trolling the board and starting with anyone who doesn't have an opinion like yourself. The only close one was your last response, but you STILL had to add the comment "worlds smallest violin for Chom and the gang".

Now this beauty. . .

Do you realize that you still have a few outstanding posts to reply to? You just leave debates with your Donkey tail between your legs as per usual.

Nothing to the conversation, and if ANYTHING I am due dilligent at sticking out my battles, and actually contributing to the topic. All you do is try to incite a flame war, and add absolutely NOTHING to the thread topic. This thread is a perfect example. Instead of having a conversation, such as I was having with Skins13 and hog who both have differing viewpoints, you attack posters, then cry foul when you are chastized for it.

Here's what I said in that quote sans your biased editing...

Clearly, I was presenting an analogy to demonstrate just how silly was ashburn's rationalization of why he thinks AI doesn't hold terrorist organizations and state sponsors of terrorism to the same standards as the US. Naturally, in your radical Molotov ****tail-throwing militant rage, you completely misrepresent the truth.

Yet you DID NOT say that, your childish response was pathetic and ignorant.

What a stupendous rationalization. Did you come up with that all by your little bitty self? Or did the horse help you out with that one?

Maybe the FBI should stop pursuing terrorists for the same reason, and instead focus on investigating common citizens and bust them for going 5 MPH over the speed limit.

Sheeesh.... Clearly one of the all-time DUMBEST posts ever on this board.

Again, nothing but trolling, and adding nothing to the thread except to inflame people. You are doing nothing but trolling, and you are getting called out for your 2nd grade behavior.

Chom.... I have been engaged in discourse. Unfortunately, your modus operandi is to IGNORE and ATTACK anyone that disagrees with you. Before you start frothing at the mouth and posting riduculous rants, take a look int he mirror and make sure you perform due diligence by searching the rest of the thread.

You can't be effing serious. That is what you call engaged in discourse? What the hell is trolling in your warped version of reality? You have added NOTHING to this thread except for calling people stupid, brainwashed, unable to form an opinion of themself and to me that I ignore and attack people that disagree with me. Well, yes, this is an attack on you, because I think you are adding nothing to this thread, and you are doing nothing except inflaming people and trying to start crap. You added nothing in terms of your opinion, only your hate filled uber-right wing rants. Maybe if you would do YOUR OWN due dilligence, go back through this thread and read YOUR OWN responses, you will see exactly what I am talking about. . .Actually, you can read them all above, I posted them except for the Sun Tzu quip.

Then the Piece de resistance

Oh, and it's a shame that the thought "pull out" never registered that fateful night.

Yea, you don't troll, you don't attack people. . .just pathetic.

Maybe you can go back, edit your posts and try to save face, but I bet you lack the common courtesy to do so.

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OaktonSkins/BushFan

OaktonSkins/BushFan

Posted
Posted
Maybe if you had actually READ the book, you would know Sun Tzu's philosophy was to avoid war when ever possible. . .

Just so you know, you 0wn3d yourself

Yeah, you're sooooooooooo smart. :doh: Sun-Tzu is also an inspiration for “asymmetric warfare” which is based on his theories of “indirect combat”. The basic concept is essentially a fight in which one of the contentious parties does not permit any kind of constraints to its actions. The party may do whatever it pleases.

Our objective in GWOT, like any war, is to win. It's a zero sum game.

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skinfan133

skinfan133

Posted
Posted
I, sir, am a native America ****. You, on the other land, are a squatter who has never learned to respect other people or the land.
you would never have said that before the imigration debate. I never did any such thing to YOU and YOU know it. all i know is I was BORN an AMERICAN in America. i cant answer for what my ancestors did any more than you can for YOURS so leave that debate at the door where it belongs, its a whole nother issue and you bring this out BECAUSE YOU cant come up with anything worth arguing against me.

im really tired of you, and that staement above offends me in the most extreme way

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nelms

nelms

Posted
Posted
You know this thread is kind of interesting, on the one hand we have some conservative posters feigning indignation at the possiblity of war crimes like torture, and yet GOP poster boys like Bush Fan are trying to defend the use of it.

"feigning indignation"? You really must think you can read other people's minds. How come I've never seen you come down on the side of any true conservative issue, Mr "So-called Libertarian". You and LeftyDevil should get a room. :laugh:

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OaktonSkins/BushFan

OaktonSkins/BushFan

Posted
Posted
What have you added to this thread except for EXACTLY what I posted? Your constand "liberal is the bogeyman" bull s***? Anything? I think not.

:blahblah: .

Whatever. Anyone that gives a flying F can just read thru the thread, and read what was really stated without your abridgement, editing, editorial opinion, and contextual manilpulation. They can also check out some of the last few threads in which you've attempted to engage in debate, and left with your tail between your legs.

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chomerics

chomerics

Posted
Posted
Yeah, you're sooooooooooo smart. :doh: Sun-Tzu is also an inspiration for “asymmetric warfare” which is based on his theories of “indirect combat”. The basic concept is essentially a fight in which one of the contentious parties does not permit any kind of constraints to its actions. The party may do whatever it pleases.

And are we living in the year 500 B.C.? I don't think so. I can care less what the enemy does, we are a civilized nation, and we live in a civilized world. You may want to lop of heads, wear ear neclaces and act like Col. Kurtz, but our society dictates that we do not act like savages.

Our objective in GWOT, like any war, is to win. It's a zero sum game.

And I don't disagree with you, except in the fact that the GWOT never should have included Iraq, they had nothing to do with 9-11 and Al Qaeda. It was Bush and his PNAC minions who had already made up their mind about Iraq before 9-11, and they used it as an excuse to invade the piss ant country.

You are right on one thing, war IS a zero sum game, but in order to win, you have to know who the enemy is, apparently Bush and the Neo-cons did not. Otherwise they would have captured the person who perpetrated 9-11. . .and no, it was not Saddam Hussen :doh:

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ashburnskinsfan

ashburnskinsfan

Posted
Posted
And are we living in the year 500 B.C.? I don't think so. I can care less what the enemy does, we are a civilized nation, and we live in a civilized world. You may want to lop of heads, wear ear neclaces and act like Col. Kurtz, but our society dictates that we do not act like savages.

I fully support our troops doing what is necessary against Al Qaeda, but that is not the enemy we typically face in Iraq.

Behaving outside the rule of law is ineffective in this type of conflict. Speaking from personal experience, the IRA in Ireland reached their peak power as a reaction to the British strategy of internment without trial of many hundreds of nationalists. This didn't get the results the British were hoping for so they extended the program to include the detention and limited torture of their spouses (including pregnant women). Not surprisingly, the ill feeling this created in the community far outweighed any information obtained. Violence increased as a result.

To quote another writer on the situation in Iraq:

"As we see in asymmetric conflicts such as Iraq, "fear that the enemy can inflict even greater violence and pain" is doing us little or no good against the insurgents. They are willing to absorb the large amounts of violence, pain, and death our troops are capable of dishing out, particularly knowing that most of it will fall on non-combatant locals, turning them against our side, and helping them recruit more supporters.

To the extent that we are making any progress in Iraq at all, it is through the restraint that our troops often show, allowing them to apply non-violent "weapons" that are more effective than violence. If we can restore and protect the infrastructure, improving the lives of everyday Iraqis, we gain ground. If we can pursuade Sunnis, Shiites, and Kurds to participate together in elections, we gain ground. If we can encourage those three distinct groups to think of themselves as Iraqis, and see the insurgents as foreigners, we gain ground. If we can convince the Iraqi people that the insurgents are more responsible for their problems than we are, we gain ground.

The insurgents rely on being able to "swim like fish in the sea of the people" (paraphrasing Mao). When the ordinary people see them as threats to their well-being, and trust the authorities enough to turn them in, the insurgents will be finished."

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Crazyhorse1

Crazyhorse1

Posted
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Posted

According to author James Mitchner only about ten percent of men and women will accept authority in the name of patriotism to the degree that it will feel justified in commiting aggressive war, atrocities, war crimes, torture, or bomb civilians, etc. These are the hard core elite of any army and make possible the world's tyrants or aggressive leaders such as Hitler or Stalin or

Napoleon, or Alexander the Great. Without them, Mitcher says, human beings can't be relied upon to kill one another in an organized fashion necessary to sustain a culture of war.

In other words, war is at bottom unnatural and the brain that produces it as a solution to problems is atavistic and not rational or functioning efficiently. What makes it seems natural is the violent and aggressive behavior of the minority, which tends to produce compliance on the part of the pacific ninety percent. In other words, the sheep are bullied into going along. Because they will not fight their actual oppressors (their psychotic brethern), they end up fighting people they do not hate on the battlefield, but with almost staggering lack of committment.

More on this fascinating topic later: Why we lose unjust wars.

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nelms

nelms

Posted
Posted
According to author James Mitchner only about ten percent of men and women will accept authority in the name of patriotism to the degree that it will feel justified in commiting aggressive war, atrocities, war crimes, torture, or bomb civilians, etc. These are the hard core elite of any army and make possible the world's tyrants or aggressive leaders such as Hitler or Stalin or

Napoleon, or Alexander the Great. Without them, Mitcher says, human beings can't be relied upon to kill one another in an organized fashion necessary to sustain a culture of war.

In other words, war is at bottom unnatural and the brain that produces it as a solution to problems is atavistic and not rational or functioning efficiently. What makes it seems natural is the violent and aggressive behavior of the minority, which tends to produce compliance on the part of the pacific ninety percent. In other words, the sheep are bullied into going along. Because they will not fight their actual oppressors (their psychotic brethern), they end up fighting people they do not hate on the battlefield, but with almost staggering lack of committment.

More on this fascinating topic later: Why we lose unjust wars.

I see you're off your meds again.

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