Shawn Springs vs Terrance Newman

[BigDFan5]

I think you need to understand I don't believe Dr. Z evaluates much of anything, though I'm certain he says he does. And, the point I'm trying to make to you, when it comes to corner play, there are no REAL factual assessments. Two years ago when we played you guys in Dallas and Crayton scored on us, who does that play go against? Springs or Taylor? How do you evaluate it? Who, other than the players and coaching staff, knows?

Ot's your perogative to think a respected magazine and one of its top writers is just making things up but unless you have something to back this claim I dont know what to tell you.

2 years ago the pass was the fault of Taylor because he was supposed to help cover over the top and was out of position.

We may discuss Newman surrendering 20 or 2 touchdowns a couple of years ago, and, neither of us has the ability to know. Dallas coaches do know and they aren't telling I presume . You can believe he surrendered 8 touchdowns and that's a number I'm fine with, as it invalidates the assessment Newman is a better corner right now, because, THAT counts AGAINST him until his play, over time, distances himself from those struggles and you can fairly call it an aberration.

So his play 2 years ago count, but the fact that he was the best cover corner this pasy season doesn't? I am still waiting on something to back your opinion? I mean you demean Stats inc and SI because they are assessing a situation yet are you not in fact assessing it as well? You are doing the same thing as them yet you are the only contradictory voice. Maybe its because you're a Skins fan, maybe its because you7 just didn;t know. But to try to give your opinion and at the same time try to devalue other professional opinions is laughable at best

[BigDFan5]

no question that springs is a much more physical corner. plus, over a career, he has been more steady in performance. newman took a step back his second year and has not been the dominant corner that was predicted of him. both have been somewhat injury prone. and for certtain, springs is amuch better blitzer than newman

Newman has never missed a game where did injury prone come from?

[BigDFan5]

I notice you say SI is very respected, not Dr. Z

He is one of their top writers

[Art]

Ot's your perogative to think a respected magazine and one of its top writers is just making things up but unless you have something to back this claim I dont know what to tell you.

2 years ago the pass was the fault of Taylor because he was supposed to help cover over the top and was out of position.

Well, I'm seeing a writer from his magazine make things up, so why would I not think Z is also prone to it? And, the fault was on Springs as Williams has said. Springs had the responsibility to prevent a clean outside release. Now, we were in zone, so, that play would not have actually been attributed to either guy, but, the blame was on Springs. Taylor got to the exact spot he was supposed to get to if the ball went wide. The player shouldn't have been there had Springs done his job. This is a perfect example of how it's impossible to judge corner play without talking to the people involved and knowing assignments. Springs gave up the Reggie Brown touchdown this year against Philly when 10 other guys checked and he didn't see the check on defense. It happens. But you'd never know it without following behind the scenes.

So his play 2 years ago count, but the fact that he was the best cover corner this pasy season doesn't? I am still waiting on something to back your opinion? I mean you demean Stats inc and SI because they are assessing a situation yet are you not in fact assessing it as well? You are doing the same thing as them yet you are the only contradictory voice. Maybe its because you're a Skins fan, maybe its because you7 just didn;t know. But to try to give your opinion and at the same time try to devalue other professional opinions is laughable at best

His entire career counts as he's been in the league for three years. I don't demean Stats Inc. at all. I say it's a NICE tool. But, they have an impossible job trying to measure corner play from the outside looking in. Let me ask you, what percentage of man did you play compared to zone? What's Stats Inc. say? The ONLY thing I'm doing here is attempting to get you to understand an up and down player is never going to be considered an elite corner until his downs are no longer quite so dramatic or quite so recent.

[SkinsDukes]

He is one of their top writers

A sad commentary indeed....

Your arguments are only as good as their supporting evidence, and by extension the stock and veracity your partner in the debate puts in that evidence. Trying to use Dr. Z, and SI around here carries little to no weight. If we don't respect the source you site, we aren't going to respect the result.

I'll be happy to give you Newman is a solid corner. However, trying to use a source that has "questionable" authority at best isn't helping the case.

[Art]

He is one of their top writers

Dude, you're insane. I'm willing to bet even COWBOY fans wouldn't back you up on taking anything King or Z say seriously. Maybe I'm wrong and you boys are so desperate for validation of something totally untrue you'll even latch onto dopes like these. Remember, King is the guy who's considered THE top guy at SI and he was caught LYING about how many starters the Redskins released to get under the cap to prevent himself from looking like a fool regarding his previous cap predictions for us. He did this right after offering up the thought we cheated. And how one of the top receivers to ever play the game doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame. Trust me, we're not going to take much they have to say all that seriously. You can if you want, but, it's mostly going to get us to giggle in response.

[BigDFan5]

Well, I'm seeing a writer from his magazine make things up, so why would I not think Z is also prone to it?

So you don't have anything to prove he makes things up?

And, the fault was on Springs as Williams has said. Springs had the responsibility to prevent a clean outside release. Now, we were in zone, so, that play would not have actually been attributed to either guy, but, the blame was on Springs. Taylor got to the exact spot he was supposed to get to if the ball went wide. The player shouldn't have been there had Springs done his job. This is a perfect example of how it's impossible to judge corner play without talking to the people involved and knowing assignments. Springs gave up the Reggie Brown touchdown this year against Philly when 10 other guys checked and he didn't see the check on defense. It happens. But you'd never know it without following behind the scenes.

So professional people have no idea about football? Stats inc who works in conjunction wih ESPN is clueless yet ART on extremeskins knows better?

His entire career counts as he's been in the league for three years

Yet you only talk about one season. You downplay his probowl alternate year as a "nice" year and this past season of iving up 0 TDs and 2 for 20 a game as "better" When in fact it was a great season for a CB

I don't demean Stats Inc. at all. I say it's a NICE tool. But, they have an impossible job trying to measure corner play from the outside looking in.

They look at the tapes to compile their stats if they aren't reliable enough can you give me a link to a site that you prefer?

Let me ask you, what percentage of man did you play compared to zone?

I am not the rpo here, can you answer it?

What's Stats Inc. say?

I don't know but I am willing to bet if they broke it down it would be damn close

The ONLY thing I'm doing here is attempting to get you to understand an up and down player is never going to be considered an elite corner until his downs are no longer quite so dramatic or quite so recent.

1 great season 1 very good season and 1 bad season looks to me that the trend shows the bad season was the fluke (he had torn meniscus that year but I am sure that doesnt matter)

So to recap Si is lying, Stats inc is a tool, but YOU know best am i right?

[BigDFan5]

A sad commentary indeed....

Your arguments are only as good as their supporting evidence, and by extension the stock and veracity your partner in the debate puts in that evidence. Trying to use Dr. Z, and SI around here carries little to no weight. If we don't respect the source you site, we aren't going to respect the result.

I'll be happy to give you Newman is a solid corner. However, trying to use a source that has "questionable" authority at best isn't helping the case.

He was one of two sources you ignored the other. When multiple sources say the same thing I think you can assume its right

[BigDFan5]

Dude, you're insane. I'm willing to bet even COWBOY fans wouldn't back you up on taking anything King or Z say seriously. Maybe I'm wrong and you boys are so desperate for validation of something totally untrue you'll even latch onto dopes like these. Remember, King is the guy who's considered THE top guy at SI and he was caught LYING about how many starters the Redskins released to get under the cap to prevent himself from looking like a fool regarding his previous cap predictions for us. He did this right after offering up the thought we cheated. And how one of the top receivers to ever play the game doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame. Trust me, we're not going to take much they have to say all that seriously. You can if you want, but, it's mostly going to get us to giggle in response.

Like I said you can hate SI all you want but like it or not they are a respected sports magazine. I notice you said Dr. Z's article was "totally untrue" do you have anything to back that or are you so desperate for validation of your opinion that you totally disregard everything?

[Art]

BigD.

You need to start listening as you'll learn something.

Stats Inc. has NO IDEA what defenses a team runs or what assignments a player has. Their rankings for any corner play, as with Football Outsiders, is purely conjecture on their part. It's GREAT they provide that conjecture, but, it is not a valid factual basis. It's merely a nice tool you hope is largely uniform in the assessment.

This is not belittling to the group. It's merely a fact they don't know the play calls, responsibilities or anything else on any given play. Indeed, Art at Extremeskins does for two reasons. One, I actually have direct access to check. Two, I actually read what my coaching staff and players say about such things in public statements.

We know SI is led by a writer who openly has lied recently about the Redskins. That's proof and proven they are not bound by the truth in what they say. What we do know from seeing the games and evaluating years of play is Springs has achieved a level Newman has never reached. And Springs has never played at a level as bad as Newman has.

So, there is no actual comparision to be made other than by Dr. Z, which, here, tends to support our position.

[Art]

Like I said you can hate SI all you want but like it or not they are a respected sports magazine. I notice you said Dr. Z's article was "totally untrue" do you have anything to back that or are you so desperate for validation of your opinion that you totally disregard everything?

Perhaps you've come to a point you are no longer willing to pay any attention. At no point did I say Dr. Z's article was totally untrue. You just made that up. If you'd like to talk to me about something I actually DID say, let me know. If the language is too complex for you to understand, let me know and I'll try to even it out for you to get you back involved.

But, you're going to at least TRY to have the same conversation I'm having. Aren't you?

[BigDFan5]

Your right ART only you know the real deal when it comes to football the pros are lying idiots the people whose whole business is doing stats have no idea what they are doing Only Art knows. I should have known better than to try to get into a discussion with someone who values his own opinion over everything no matter what has shown him to be wrong

[elkabong82]

I give Springs the edge as he is a veteran and has more experience than Newman. I won't take anything away from Newman, but Springs is better. Since Springs has been w/ the Skins our D has been better than the 'Boys. Springs can play through injuries, is a better blitzer, and is better man to man. No one will be able to convince a Dallas fan otherwise, so everyone just has to agree to disagree.

Peter King is a liar by the way. He said there was no way the Skins could get under the cap, and would field 20 rookies. Since he was wrong yet again he has pulled a few stunts to try and vindicate himself. He claimed the Skins got 16 million in space after the new CBA agreement, even though the cap only went up 7.5 million, for EVERYBODY. He tried calling for an investigation on the Skins for circumventing the cap, even though no NFL officials in this area have sited any suspicion. King has said the LA release needed to be investigated, even though again, no officials sited any suspicion. King has since stated the Skins cut 5 starters to get under. LA chose to leave, so you can't really count that. Harris lost the starting job half way through the season. The fact is, we haven't cut any starters from the past season. King is lying just to cover his own butt. King is also the same guy who said, when defending his decision not to let Monk in the HOF, that when judging players you can't really look at their stats. King always has something nice to say about the 'Boys, so I can understand the bias and denial.

[Art]

Your right ART only you know the real deal when it comes to football the pros are lying idiots the people whose whole business is doing stats have no idea what they are doing Only Art knows. I should have known better than to try to get into a discussion with someone who values his own opinion over everything no matter what has shown him to be wrong

Big D,

It seems you're entire existence is tied into Stats Inc. knowing every defensive player's responsibility on every passing play during the league year. I'm sorry to have had to introduce you to what for most of us is just understood, yet to you seems to be troubling.

Defensive stats in the passing game are HIGHLY subjective in nature, incomplete in all cases and that's TOTALLY cool. No one would expect computer geeks sitting in a room to understand what coverages are designed to do on any given play. That's why many plays are simply ignored in such evaluations, limiting the sample size and accuracy further.

That's not a bad thing. It's just how they have to operate. It's why "drop" stats are so wildly different they had to implement a set of rules so each evaluator they hire would be bound by them to at least attain consistency. Check out how they define a drop, or a reception against, or a sack and that sort of thing. They used to have that available to everyone. If they still don't, I'll see if I can get you a copy.

All of the stats provided for subjective areas should be taken with a grain of salt. We know Samuels may have been credited with a sack against him for a play Ramsey held the ball for too long and the coaching staff attributed the sack to the QB. Or, a receiver ran his route two-yards deep. Or the QB dropped a yard too shallow. There are factors ONLY the players and coaches of each team understand in most of these areas. Great tools like Stats Inc. try to give you and me something we don't have and that's great.

But, to think of these references as "hard" numbers like a pass reception or tackle or whatever is something you just can't do. No matter how much you feel you need to.

[cuchip703]

My opinion is that both are very good CB's. Newman had a bad year but he was improved last year and will probably continue to get better. I think the Dallas fans underestimate how good Springs has been. You are quick to point out Newman's pro bowl alternate year but fact is Springs has been there and done that more than Newman.

As for the SI argument, sorry Dallas fans, SI is not really a respected source, especially around here. Its hard for Redskins fans to respect the two main writers (King and Z) when those two head the push to keep Art Monk out of the HAll of Fame honor he deserves. Here's something I truly believe, when its time for Darrell Green to go in, I am positive those same two will make a push that he doesn't belong there either, citing some bs reason such as he was a compiler playing for a long time....Ask any player or coach from the era, some of the best in fact (Parcells, Laundry, Gibbs) if he deserves to get in. These are the guys that know, not some idiot writer who never has played a down and holds some grudge against a guy because he didnt grant an interview or some petty bs like that

[DCMONEY]

Newman was rated by several journalist that actually take time to evaluate players based on more than one game as the games BEST corner. While I wouldn't go that far I believe he is far better than Springs.

Just because Newman doesn't gets stats doesn't mean anything, as you have pointed out.

Newman gave up ZERO touchdowns and I think had a single penalty all year. His yards given up were also ridiculously low (don't know them off the top of my head).

He is also a solid tackler (once again, watch more than one game before you give your rebuttle), and supports the run very well.

Newman did improve last season but as was stated, he was getting toasted 2 seasons ago. I also can remember in particular on Inside the NFL on HBO Steve Smith kept saying someone better get #41 off me. When Darren Woodson retired, it seemed like Newman went into a funk. Springs in his 1st season with the Skins had one of the best seasons a corner could have on the #1 defense in the conference yet he didn't go to the pro bowl. 5 int's and 6 sacks.

[RobMexico]

I didn't watch every Skins game so I don't know how good Springs, but I know Newman was phenomenal last year. They might be even I can't really comment.

And to the Art guy, are you for real? I don't mean to be rude but you just don't seem to have the capability to be wrong.

[Biscuit]

1)Newmans rookie year in 2003 was incredible. He was the biggest reason why they had the number defense in yards allowed. I've never seen a rookie corner play that well.

2)2004 Newman started terribly and finished strong---he ended up giving up 8 TD's last year. I don't think Springs has every had a year that poor

3)The QB rating against Newman last year was 40! He was rated the 3rd or 4th best corner in the NFL last year by many INDEPENDENT scouts. KC Joyner, etc. I don't think Springs has ever had a year like that.

Spring is more consistent but Newman can dominate and is younger. I don't think you can go wrong with either but I'd take Newman since he may even get better.

Any poster saying either player is terrible, a bust, or just above average is delusional and a fool. Their opinions should carry zero weight in any NFL discussion.

EDIT: Grammar

[gambit187]

1)Newmans rookie year in 2003 was incredible. He was the biggest reason why they had the number defense in yards allowed. I've never seen a rookie corner play that well.

2)2004 Newman started terribly and finished strong---he ended up giving up 8 TD's last year. I don't think Springs has every had a year that poor

3)The QB rating against Newman last year was 40! He was rated the 3rd or 4th best corner in the NFL last year by many INDEPENDENT scouts. KC Joyner, etc. I don't think Springs has ever had a year like that.

Spring is more consistent but Newman can dominate and is younger. I don't think you can go wrong with either but I'd take Newman since he may even get better.

Any poster saying either player is terrible, a bust, or just above average is delusional and a fool. Their opinions should carry zero weight in any NFL discussion.

EDIT: Grammar

Also Newman was hurt his second year and played hurt.

[Peregrine]

Correct me if im wrong, but I believe Newman was the cowboys #1 corner last season, like Springs.

If so footballoutsiders has all the info I need. The Cowboys defense was better at getting pressure on the QB last year than the Redskins. That first of all means that the Dallas secondary had it a little bit easier than the Redskins secondary did. Using their formula, the cowboys ranked 9th against the pass the Redskins 7th. This is with Springs as #1 corner and rookie Carlos Rogers at the other side. I think you would be hard pressed to make any case that the Redskins rookie CB Rogers is the better of the two, so one must assume Springs was the one who pulled most of the weight in getting the Redskins to #7.

The most important statistic I know of is how well that #1 reciever did against the CB he was facing. The Redskins(still using the footballoutsiders formula, which is a completion %, yards, firstdowns, etc formula), ranked #4 in the NFL in defending the other teams #1 reciever. Springs man. The Cowboys, ranked #23. Thats Newmans man. Which means, Springs did a considerably better job than Newman in holding his man to fewer completions, for less yards, and less first down conversions, TD's and the like.

[Biscuit]

2004 Newman was hurt but still played the first ~ 10 or 12 games like he was a space cadet so he needs to get criticized. The last 4 to 6 were vintage performances and carried on into 2005 where QB's had a ~ 40 rating throwing against him for the entire year.

The Cowboy corners, even when Deion was here, never match up with a receiver - they play a side of the field the entire game. If you can point out a game in particular where he got beat badly, let me know and I'll review my DVD's and give you the results. More than likely, it wasn't even on his side of the field. 2-20 is about what he game up per game...it was a phenominal year for Newman.

I'm very critical of the Cowboys and have no agenda to make them or their players appear better than they are. The team's coverage problems are related to having terrible linebackers who can never cover the TE, and a FS who was always out of position. The coordinator can't hold Gregg William's jock either which doesn't help.

Roy Williams, Aaron Glenn and Anthony Henry also had their moments where they were burned, but not often enough to be considerred a problem. Of the three, Glenn was the worst defender according to my notes. Newman was virtually perfect

EDIT: Coverage problems are relative I guess, the Cowboys had the second best % completion rate (Redskins were tops) in the NFL. I think both teams were around 10th best in yards allowed (a less reliable metric than comp %)