21KO Posted February 3, 2007 Author Share Posted February 3, 2007 And I would say the same is true about pro-gun people. Case in point... You've got a problem with someone disputing your points? The case you've made about an older woman running from her attacker is asinine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnyderShrugged Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 And I would say the same is true about pro-gun people. Case in point... I'm sorry, I dont understand this reference? could you explain it in more detail? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnyderShrugged Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 I know people that sleep with a gun next to their bed.I know people that are never out in public without a concealed weapon. Sometimes more than one. I know training instructors that work out of the NRA Headquarters here in Fairfax. I know people that collect guns. I know people that hunt and do it right by protecting the environment while they hunt. I know people that are completely against guns. I witnessed an anti-war/anti-violence protest in D.C. I have at least one gun. I have no problem with gun registration, background checks, and gun education. Like any tool or device or whatever, you should know how to use it before using it. If you want to carry a gun you should be required to complete both classroom and firing range training. People need to be taught some of the rules: Never point a firearm at someone unless you intend to shoot them. (Always keep a gun pointed in a safe direction) Always treat firearms as if they are loaded. Always keep your finger off the trigger unless you intent to shoot. Know your target and what is beyond. Never mix alcohol/drugs/prescription medication with guns. You need to train and practice to familiarize yourself with how to use a gun correctly. This can be done at a firing range or a backyard if you live in open country. It sure does sound like you need to be a safety conscious and responsible person to own and use a gun. Those people generally don't have issues with registrations, background checks, education and training. I'm with ya on almost everything except registration. and it's not the registration itself I have the problem with, it's registrations that lead to future confiscation, like the one in California did. Thats just wrong and ruined the case for registration worldwide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rincewind Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 You've got a problem with someone disputing your points? The case you've made about an older woman running from her attacker is asinine. Fine, how about this - for every rape that you show could have been stopped by the person having a gun (remember, just having a gun doens't stop the rape), I'll point out one person needlessly murdered by a gun. Guess who's going to have more examples. I'm sorry, I dont understand this reference? could you explain it in more detail? My point is, that for some reason 21KO seems to feel that EVERYONE should have a gun. Just in case a someone breaks into your house and wants to rape your mother. Sorry, but guns aren't for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 except the main difference in these "neuroses" that you are describing is that One (The Gov't control) has already manifested itself here and elsewhere.So to say it's irrational is in itself...irrational :2cents: I don't know, there are far too many examples of the crazy drunk guy going on a shooting spree or drive by shootings or coked up guys getting a hold of a gun. There are very real boogeymen to inspire our neuroses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
21KO Posted February 3, 2007 Author Share Posted February 3, 2007 I'm with ya on almost everything except registration. and it's not the registration itself I have the problem with, it's registrations that lead to future confiscation, like the one in California did. Thats just wrong and ruined the case for registration worldwide. And England - heirlooms that were passed down for generations were confiscated and destroyed. The facts are that just about every weapon you purchase is "registered". You go to Wal-Mart and buy a rifle and you're subject to all FFL laws. Lots of forms to fill out and a background check. Registration is a money grab. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnyderShrugged Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 I don't know, there are far too many examples of the crazy drunk guy going on a shooting spree or drive by shootings or coked up guys getting a hold of a gun. There are very real boogeymen to inspire our neuroses. but the issues there are not the guns, but the illegal activity that just happened to have a gun there too. Those are crimes caused/influenced by alcohol and coke. There are laws against those things, why punish all other legal Gun owners for people who break other laws? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
21KO Posted February 3, 2007 Author Share Posted February 3, 2007 My point is, that for some reason 21KO seems to feel that EVERYONE should have a gun. Wrong - I never said that, and don't believe it. Please find it in my posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rincewind Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 Wrong - I never said that, and don't believe it. Please find it in my posts. You saying my mother is dead and raped because she didn't own a gun was good enough for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
21KO Posted February 3, 2007 Author Share Posted February 3, 2007 Fine, how about this - for every rape that you show could have been stopped by the person having a gun (remember, just having a gun doens't stop the rape), I'll point out one person needlessly murdered by a gun. Guess who's going to have more examples. Oh, I'll bet I will. The mere sight of a weapon will more often than not run off these worthless coward pieces of sh*t. And those people "needlessly" murdered may not have been if they were able to defend themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mass_SkinsFan Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 I consider myself on the left, and I own 17 guns. I see nothing wrong with gun control, I have never had a problem buying a gun I wanted, so what if I had to wait a week [when i bought my .44 magnum] That's wonderful until the reason you're buying the gun is that your now ex-boyfriend who you caught with another woman and threw out of the apartment says he's going to kill you and even with the restraining order in place the police tell you they can't do anything until he actually violates the order (at which point you're pretty sure you will be dead). Waiting periods are like locks. They keep honest people honest. They don't do anything to disuade criminals from acquiring firearms. In fact they help the criminals by ensuring that a recently threatened person who didn't have a firearm previously to defend themselves with can't readily get one legally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
21KO Posted February 3, 2007 Author Share Posted February 3, 2007 You saying my mother is dead and raped because she didn't own a gun was good enough for me. Well it's not good enough for anyone with any sense. Show me the post where I said I believe everyone should have a gun. Take your head out of your ass and read the papers - it happens every single day. No one is immune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 Drinking is not an illegal activity. I've always found the "guns don't kill people" slogan to be a cop-out. Clearly, guns kill people. That's one of the primary purposes that they are made for. Very few guns were ever made for straining pasta. Other than the neuroses I was talking about, I also think part of this argument lies in where our cynicism is seated. You are more cynical about "the man" and I am more cynical about the man. I believe that controls are useful. I do think we have a right to protect ourselves, but that right needs to be tempered by education and reason... of course, how we vary in our definition of reasonable is pretty darn confusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rincewind Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 Well it's not good enough for anyone with any sense. Show me the post where I said I believe everyone should have a gun.Take your head out of your ass and read the papers - it happens every single day. No one is immune. Personal attacks? Nice. Gee, with your temper, I feel very safe with you owning a gun. Maybe I should rethink not being pro gun control laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
21KO Posted February 3, 2007 Author Share Posted February 3, 2007 Personal attacks? Nice. Gee, with your temper, I feel very safe with you owning a gun. Maybe I should rethink not being pro gun control laws. Here we go...now you're starting to sound the like the screechers - good to see your true colors showing. I post a message and from that you can infer my mood. :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnyderShrugged Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 Drinking is not an illegal activity. I've always found the "guns don't kill people" slogan to be a cop-out. Clearly, guns kill people. That's one of the primary purposes that they are made for. Very few guns were ever made for straining pasta. Other than the neuroses I was talking about, I also think part of this argument lies in where our cynicism is seated. You are more cynical about "the man" and I am more cynical about the man. I believe that controls are useful. I do think we have a right to protect ourselves, but that right needs to be tempered by education and reason... of course, how we vary in our definition of reasonable is pretty darn confusing. I actually like your thoughts on cynicism. It does vary based on our own personal experiences and what we each have paid attention too. Now on the topic of "Guns dont kill people" I agree that it can become a crutch and a weak debate point over time. but that doesnt change the fact that the crimes you referenced would still take place with or without a gun because the gun was a tool used, not the root cause. I dont think we can ignore the fact that simple brandishing a gun is often a major crime preventor. I can even tell you of 2 personal experiences where brandishing my own gun caused a criminal to change their mind about me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rincewind Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 Here we go...now you're starting to sound the like the screechers - good to see your true colors showing.I post a message and from that you can infer my mood. :laugh: Actually it was a few posts. But, I think your main problem is that I'm anti-gun. You try pigeon-holeing me with gun control libs and it doesn't work. You try the worst case scenario, it doesn't work. You get fustrated and tell me I have my head up my ass because I prefer not to own a gun. Fine. I'm going to go on living in my own little world. It seems to be working just spiffy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 That's wonderful until the reason you're buying the gun is that your now ex-boyfriend who you caught with another woman and threw out of the apartment says he's going to kill you and even with the restraining order in place the police tell you they can't do anything until he actually violates the order (at which point you're pretty sure you will be dead). Waiting periods are like locks. They keep honest people honest. They don't do anything to disuade criminals from acquiring firearms. In fact they help the criminals by ensuring that a recently threatened person who didn't have a firearm previously to defend themselves with can't readily get one legally. Or your scenario could go the other way. The ex-boy friend has gone rabid and says he's going to kill you. He runs to the nearest pawn shop and tries to buy a gun, but he's got to wait 30 days before he can actually claim it, by then his head is a lot cooler and he realizes that he nearly destroyed three lives. It all depends on where in the story you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rincewind Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 I'd just like to add that I think it's funny that pro-gun people always try to scare me into being a gun owner. But than, a lot of times, turnaround and say anti-gun people are paranoid about the government. Gee, I wonder why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnyderShrugged Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 Or your scenario could go the other way. The ex-boy friend has gone rabid and says he's going to kill you. He runs to the nearest pawn shop and tries to buy a gun, but he's got to wait 30 days before he can actually claim it, by then his head is a lot cooler and he realizes that he nearly destroyed three lives. It all depends on where in the story you are. the only problem with that logic is the assumption that his head will be cooler in 30 days. There really isnt ant proof to it. The risk still lies on the shoulders of the would-be victim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnyderShrugged Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 I'd just like to add that I think it's funny that pro-gun people always try to scare me into being a gun owner. But than, a lot of times, turnaround and say anti-gun people are paranoid about the government. Gee, I wonder why? again, I dont think anyone really has an issue with you choosing to not be a gun owner. There maybe some, but that isnt the norm (imho) The issue with most Pro-Gun folks is when it goes to the next level and that same choice is taken away from the populace :2cents: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 or without a gun because the gun was a tool used, not the root cause.I dont think we can ignore the fact that simple brandishing a gun is often a major crime preventor. I can even tell you of 2 personal experiences where brandishing my own gun caused a criminal to change their mind about me. When I was learning to drive my father told me something that I have never forgot... He said, "I trust you. It's all the other idiots out there I don't trust." I think that pertains to guns to. I trust me. I know I would be responsible and never use it as a toy or in anger. I might even trust you (though I'd need to know you a little better than as typed text,) but the random stranger out there. Him, I don't trust. Then again, I realize that this same argument is easily reversed. You want a gun, because you don't trust all the idiots out there. I also know that when in a fight, a fight changes nature dramatically when someone pulls a weapon. Once drawn, the fight is not about beating the other guy up or knocking him down, but a life or death struggle... when adrenaline is flowing and people are really hot... I don't trust the other idiots out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
21KO Posted February 3, 2007 Author Share Posted February 3, 2007 Actually it was a few posts. But, I think your main problem is that I'm anti-gun. You try pigeon-holeing me with gun control libs and it doesn't work. You try the worst case scenario, it doesn't work. You get fustrated and tell me I have my head up my ass because I prefer not to own a gun. Fine. I'm going to go on living in my own little world. It seems to be working just spiffy. I don't care what you do, so therefore I can't be "frustrated", but when you make ridiculous statements like you have, I'll dispute them. Those worst case scenarios happen every single day. Those are facts that you can't ignore. Like I said earlier, you've just been lucky it hasn't happened to you or someone you love. You know what they say - it's better to be lucky than smart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
21KO Posted February 3, 2007 Author Share Posted February 3, 2007 I'd just like to add that I think it's funny that pro-gun people always try to scare me into being a gun owner. But than, a lot of times, turnaround and say anti-gun people are paranoid about the government. Gee, I wonder why? You take this stuff personally, don't you? Trying to SCARE you? Not at all - just trying to understand how anyone in this day and age can truly believe that they will never encounter an instance where they will need to defend themselves. It's interesting. You've said you don't want to ban guns, so I don't have a problem with that part of your stance. It's the rest that has me curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnyderShrugged Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 When I was learning to drive my father told me something that I have never forgot... He said, "I trust you. It's all the other idiots out there I don't trust."I think that pertains to guns to. I trust me. I know I would be responsible and never use it as a toy or in anger. I might even trust you (though I'd need to know you a little better than as typed text,) but the random stranger out there. Him, I don't trust. Then again, I realize that this same argument is easily reversed. You want a gun, because you don't trust all the idiots out there. I also know that when in a fight, a fight changes nature dramatically when someone pulls a weapon. Once drawn, the fight is not about beating the other guy up or knocking him down, but a life or death struggle... when adrenaline is flowing and people are really hot... I don't trust the other idiots out there. I understand your perspective more and appreciate your candor. Discussions like ours today sure would make debating major issues like this easier wouldnt they!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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