Gun Control and Liberals? Help me here...

[Mass_SkinsFan]

What I don't really get about the pro-gun folks is how a number of them are against registration. If you really want the gun for benign purposes (hunting, protection, shooting poor defenseless skeet or beer cans) than why be against registering for it?

Burgold, as has been described already, the problem with registration is that it's a Catch-22. For registration to be useful, the paperwork has to be held onto, filed, and kept in a neat and orderly bureaucratic fashion. Unfortunately, the governments around the world, and even here in the US to a certain degree already have shown that doing that leads to an opportunity for the government to easily and quickly confiscate those firearms WHEN (not if) they decide that it's no longer in the government's best interest for private citizens to own the gun. Registration doesn't really make gun purchases any safer. We have the NICS checks now that will show up any reason why the person is not a suitable purchaser. The only useful point to gun registration is as a first step towards confiscation.

I think registration, background checks, and gun education should be a mandatory part of buying a gun.

I have no serious problem with the concept of the NICS check. So long as it can be done almost instantaniously. I've had probably nearly a dozen of them done on me over time and never had one take longer than 30 seconds. However, I have known people who've had to wait the entire 72 hours for one to clear. That's a problem in my book.

Gun education in terms of basic safety, I agree with. This concept that I've seen from some people, and exists in the State of Rhode Island, where a scored shooting test is required, is an absolute FARCE in my mind. Now, I am a proponent of gun owners getting training and practicing regularly with their firearms... I just don't fell it's the government's place to require a certain amount of non-safety related proficiency with a firearm to own one.

Personally, I wouldn't be opposed to a law preventing someone from buying a gun unless they've earned a licence showing that they know how to handle it safely.

The license is something that while I don't LIKE it, I can see being acceptable. So long as the license is quickly and relatively easily obtainable, not an undo cost, and does not require excessive bureaucracy. If we can do a NICS check that allows me to purchase a firearm in 30 seconds, why does the Commonwealth of Massachusetts need to take nearly 6 weeks to process a license application and require personal references for issuance? Additionally, the license should be issues on a FEDERAL level and be binding in the entire country.

I'm also very for the thirty day waiting period just because in my mind there's little reason to want a gun right there, right now. At the very worst it means that you need a little forethought and at the very best it provides a cooling off period or a chance to think a little harder.

Burgold, you've always seemed like a brighter guy than that in what I've seen of your posts. I already own a number of firearms, so what is a 30 day waiting period going to do against me if I were to decide to whack somebody? Even assuming I didn't already have a firearm, finding street dealers more than willing to part with a nicely-lethal snubnose .38 Spl. for less than a dealer would charge and no paperwork is not difficult at all. The only thing a waiting period does is to keep law abiding citizens from possessing an item they've already paid for and been approved to buy. Do you really think that in a 'waiting period' state, people who really want a gun for immediate use aren't going to find one?

[rincewind]

You take this stuff personally, don't you? Trying to SCARE you? Not at all - just trying to understand how anyone in this day and age can truly believe that they will never encounter an instance where they will need to defend themselves. It's interesting.

You've said you don't want to ban guns, so I don't have a problem with that part of your stance. It's the rest that has me curious.

Dude, you're telling me my mom is going to be raped and muredered; and now you say you're not tyring to scare me? Then why use the worst case scenario?

As for banning guns - this is where I do live in my own little fantasy world. I said I'm not really into gun control laws. I am however adamantly anti-gun. My stance goes way beyond enforcable laws, to hoping for the soul of the human condition.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Or your scenario could go the other way. The ex-boy friend has gone rabid and says he's going to kill you. He runs to the nearest pawn shop and tries to buy a gun, but he's got to wait 30 days before he can actually claim it, by then his head is a lot cooler and he realizes that he nearly destroyed three lives. It all depends on where in the story you are.

You are correct, to a point. The issue I have is that if Bob knows he can't get a gun at the pawn shop because of the waiting period, what he's going to do is call his buddy Carl, who knows where Bob can get an illegal gun on the street. Now we're back to Bob showing up at the apartment armed and the 30 day waiting period has only left Sally, who is a law-abiding citizen defenseless.

If the system allows for Sally to readily obtain a firearm and Bob decides she wasn't that great of a lay anyway and not worth his time to go back and attack her, nothing bad has happened. If it allows her to obtain the firearm and Bob does come back, with either a legal or illegal gun, at least she has a fighting chance. If the system denies her that right to self-defense and Bob is willing to break the law... Sally ends up watching her life flow away in a bright red pool on the floor. So who do waiting periods really protect.... law abiding citizens, or criminals? It would seem to me it's the criminals.

[21KO]

Dude, you're telling me my mom is going to be raped and muredered; and now you say you're not tyring to scare me? Then why use the worst case scenario?

As for banning guns - this is where I do live in my own little fantasy world. I said I'm not really into gun control laws. I am however adamantly anti-gun. My stance goes way beyond enforcable laws, to hoping for the soul of the human condition.

Ok, then...the guy said "howdy ma'am" and asked to use the toilet. That better?

She should still shoot him.

I don't know how else to put it.

Terrible things happen to innocent people every day. No one is immune. To remain unprepared is betting that it will never happen to you. The only thing is, you're possibly betting your life, or even worse, the life of a loved one. These are undeniable facts, and while they shouldn't "scare" you, they should give you pause.

I however, am NOT trying to scare you. Just trying to understand. You are obviously an optomist, and that's commendable. But for your own sake and the sake of your loved ones, you have to keep one eye open, that's all. You don't like guns? that's cool - how about a stun gun? Taser? Mace?

[Burgold]

you may be right about that Mass. I know that I personally wouldn't really know how to go about buying a gun illegally, but that doesn't mean that it isn't easy. The argument, though, isn't about preventing that crazy guy from getting a gun, but that by it making it a little bit harder... sometimes, anything that can create a pause, that some of these crazy guys can recover their sanity.

As far as me being brighter than my posts... well, that's certainly true. How can anyone fit the vast sum of our understanding and address all the potential perspectives in a medium this limited The reason we differ I think is primarily due to a four letter word and not the one that you think. The word is H O P E. I still have hope for humanity and that it is essentially or that it strives towards goodness. Your faith in humanity has taken a beating, although I think at your core you still believe in all of us. That's why I believe you post and reach out. You want to convince or be convinced even though you protest you don't. Bah, enough psychobabble.

[rincewind]

Ok, then...the guy said "howdy ma'am" and asked to use the toilet. That better?

She should still shoot him.

I don't know how else to put it.

Terrible things happen to innocent people every day. No one is immune. To remain unprepared is betting that it will never happen to you. The only thing is, you're possibly betting your life, or even worse, the life of a loved one. These are undeniable facts, and while they shouldn't "scare" you, they should give you pause.

I however, am NOT trying to scare you. Just trying to understand. You are obviously an optomist, and that's commendable. But for your own sake and the sake of your loved ones, you have to keep one eye open, that's all. You don't like guns? that's cool - how about a stun gun? Taser? Mace?

Funny thing is - we came home from a weekend away last week and we were standing by the front door when we heard a noise from one of the downstairs bedrooms. I was like '****, what do i do now? I don't have a weapon in the house.' So I grabbed a steak knife and went to investigate. Turns out a coat hanger had decided that then was the optimal time to fall onto the hardwood floor. :laugh:

Sorry man, I just don't want anything that's sole purpose is to cause harm in my house. I know the risk I run, and hope you never prove me wrong. But, I try to hold out hope that one day the rest of world will think like I do and realize that there is no need. Stupid? Maybe. But call it my own little protest against what we as a society have become.

[SnyderShrugged]

Guys, I need to say how impressed I am with the level of debate this morning. Looks like we all caught 40 winks last night! The lack of our typical vitriol (yes, mine included) is refreshing

[rincewind]

Guys, I need to say how impressed I am with the level of debate this morning. Looks like we all caught 40 winks last night! The lack of our typical vitriol (yes, mine included) is refreshing

Sarge and Chom must be otherwise occupied. :laugh:

[21KO]

Funny thing is - we came home from a weekend away last week and we were standing by the front door when we heard a noise from one of the downstairs bedrooms. I was like '****, what do i do now? I don't have a weapon in the house.' So I grabbed a steak knife and went to investigate. Turns out a coat hanger had decided that then was the optimal time to fall onto the hardwood floor. :laugh:

See?? Right there! I'm NOT saying you needed a gun, but something other than a steak knife!! What are you gonna do? Offer to slice his Rib Eye? :laugh:

Sorry man, I just don't want anything that's sole purpose is to cause harm in my house. I know the risk I run, and hope you never prove me wrong. But, I try to hold out hope that one day the rest of world will think like I do and realize that there is no need. Stupid? Maybe. But call it my own little protest against what we as a society have become.

Stupid?? NO!! Someone that aspires to a greater good for all mankind is NOT stupid. Naive? IMO, yes. I'm a bit jaded, especially after sitting on the Grand Jury for the past 8 months and hearing the stuff that happens in my sleepy little town that NEVER sees the papers.

Look...humor me...go get yourself a Taser and we'll call it even. No more steak knives.

[SnyderShrugged]

Sarge and Chom must be otherwise occupied. :laugh:

lmao! :laugh:

[21KO]

Sarge and Chom must be otherwise occupied. :laugh:

LMAO!!! I do hang around enough to get that one. :notworthy

[Mass_SkinsFan]

When I was learning to drive my father told me something that I have never forgot... He said, "I trust you. It's all the other idiots out there I don't trust."

I think that pertains to guns to. I trust me. I know I would be responsible and never use it as a toy or in anger. I might even trust you (though I'd need to know you a little better than as typed text,) but the random stranger out there. Him, I don't trust.

Then again, I realize that this same argument is easily reversed. You want a gun, because you don't trust all the idiots out there. I also know that when in a fight, a fight changes nature dramatically when someone pulls a weapon. Once drawn, the fight is not about beating the other guy up or knocking him down, but a life or death struggle... when adrenaline is flowing and people are really hot... I don't trust the other idiots out there.

Burgold, you make a good point. A lot of this is about trust. Trust of ourselves, trust or our fellow men, and trust of the government. One of those three I trust completely. One I hope to be able to trust. The third I could never trust. Therefore, I believe that the one I CAN trust and the one I HOPE I can trust should be well armed and prepared against the one I know none of us should ever trust.

Additionally, as someone who is 5'6" tall and weighs in at about 185 lbs., that kubaton/pepperspray on my keychain, that knife in my pocket, that firearm on my belt is the ultimate equalizer. I'm not going to survive a fist fight with some 6'-0", 220lb bruiser. That's not my forte by any stretch of the imagination. So while I never want to have to use ANY of those tools, I prefer to have them available and to be confident and competent in their use; should the need ever arise.

[21KO]

..... So while I never want to have to use ANY of those tools, I prefer to have them available and to be confident and competent in their use; should the need ever arise.

I think that's a big part of the problem - I don't know anyone who WANTS to use them, but the facts dictate to me at least, and many others, that the possibility exists that they may be needed. And when the downside is the chance, however remote, of you or a loved one's life being lost, why take the risk?

/this post flagged for comma abuse

[Mass_SkinsFan]

you may be right about that Mass. I know that I personally wouldn't really know how to go about buying a gun illegally, but that doesn't mean that it isn't easy. The argument, though, isn't about preventing that crazy guy from getting a gun, but that by it making it a little bit harder... sometimes, anything that can create a pause, that some of these crazy guys can recover their sanity.

Unfortunately I can tell you that many people would know where to find one, or who to get in contact with to find out that same information. Unfortunately in very few situations is that going to stop somebody who is truly intent on doing harm to another person. Even if they can't find a firearm, they'll likely find something else to do their deed with.

As far as me being brighter than my posts... well, that's certainly true. How can anyone fit the vast sum of our understanding and address all the potential perspectives in a medium this limited The reason we differ I think is primarily due to a four letter word and not the one that you think. The word is H O P E. I still have hope for humanity and that it is essentially or that it strives towards goodness. Your faith in humanity has taken a beating, although I think at your core you still believe in all of us. That's why I believe you post and reach out. You want to convince or be convinced even though you protest you don't. Bah, enough psychobabble.

What I was trying to say is that your prior posts had shown greater intellectual aptitude than the one you had made there.

Unfortunately, Burgold, I've seen enough of the rough underbelly of society to understand that HOPE is largely a fantasy. I would like to be able to believe that the vast majority of people are truly good at the core, but from what I've seen in nearly thirty-three years on this planet tells me otherwise. I would love to be convinced that there is some good left in humanity, but I haven't seen much of it in a very long time, my friend.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

I think that's a big part of the problem - I don't know anyone who WANTS to use them, but the facts dictate to me at least, and many others, that the possibility exists that they may be needed. And when the downside is the chance, however remote, of you or a loved one's life being lost, why take the risk?

You are correct, 21KO that the only people I've ever known who WANTED to use those tools are the people I most believe should never have access to them. However, what I will disagree with you on is the concept that simply because there is the chance that something bad may happen with a knife or firearm, that they should be removed from circulation. Obviously, you have the right to decide not to own or become competent in the use of such tools. That's your choice. I just pray that your faith in divine providence keeping you and your family safe is justified. I, on the other hand, will trust in the tools, training, and practice I have to do the same thing.

[Burgold]

For me, the gun issue is one of logic versus emotion versus philosophy. Logic says, you should own a gun. If others have guns out there then putting yourself on a more even playing field is logical. Being prepared for the worst case scenario is logical too. Emotion goes both ways. Philosophy... my philosophy anyway speaks that life is the most precious thing and must be honored and that killing (people) is a line that must not be crossed. Does that mean that I must be willing to sacrifice myself for that belief? It does. Does it mean that I might have to sacrifice someone I love for that belief. That's harder. In theory, I would rather be killed than kill.

As a society, as a species, I do not believe man has matured to the point where we can put away our weapons. I don't know that we ever will, but we each must live by a code or at least try to develop one that we can live with.

So, when it comes to guns I respect the fact that people believe in logic or have a different philosophy, but I always hope that logic is tempered with reason and compassion. Some of the things, I have suggested in this thread are what I hope would be ways to temper that violent instinct, but I do acknowledge that guns aren't the source of it.

[21KO]

You are correct, 21KO that the only people I've ever known who WANTED to use those tools are the people I most believe should never have access to them. However, what I will disagree with you on is the concept that simply because there is the chance that something bad may happen with a knife or firearm, that they should be removed from circulation. Obviously, you have the right to decide not to own or become competent in the use of such tools. That's your choice. I just pray that your faith in divine providence keeping you and your family safe is justified. I, on the other hand, will trust in the tools, training, and practice I have to do the same thing.

I think I may have misled you with my post - I do indeed have the ability to protect myself and my loved ones - in various calibers.

I meant that the ill conceived notion of all gun owners being wild west types or SWAT wannabees that can't wait to shoot it out is incorrect.

[Fred Jones]

I have no serious problem with the concept of the NICS check. So long as it can be done almost instantaniously. I've had probably nearly a dozen of them done on me over time and never had one take longer than 30 seconds. However, I have known people who've had to wait the entire 72 hours for one to clear. That's a problem in my book.

I don't know who has been checking your criminal history, but running a CCH check is very simple if you have a terminal in which to run it. I guarantee no gun shop, gun show, Wal Mart, etc has a terminal that can access the NCIC files. The files of course are kept by the FBI and stored/maintained I believe in West Virginia. The State Police and FBI have very specific rules on the operation of the terminal and access to the NCIC files. For example, you cannot check a CCH from a mobile police cruiser over some type of wireless communication. It has to be from a terminal connected directly over wire. Also, try running the Presidents name and see how fast the Secret Service show up. Also, all CCH requests are tracked and logged as you can imagine.

If I am correct, in my corner of the world of Fairfax, VA if you purchase a gun the paperwork gets sent to the local police department. The Department uses their terminals to check criminal history and send that information back to the gun shop. How long it takes is a matter of the paperwork getting to the Department, the Department processing the paperwork, and the store picking it back up. That of course just covers the criminal history check.

Always seeming to correct you Mass on some of the details.

[21KO]

... my philosophy anyway speaks that life is the most precious thing and must be honored and that killing (people) is a line that must not be crossed. Does that mean that I must be willing to sacrifice myself for that belief? It does. Does it mean that I might have to sacrifice someone I love for that belief. That's harder. In theory, I would rather be killed than kill.

In theory....but I can't believe that if you had to make the choice to save a loved one's life or take the life of the worthless animal that would kill them, you would choose to let your loved one die. I can't fathom that. I won't believe that in a worst case scenario, and someone is trying to KILL you, you would allow it to happen if preventing your own death meant taking their life. Why is the life of a murderer more precious than yours? Or your loved ones?

Utterly improbable hypothesis? Absolutely. But you said "theory", so that's what this is about.

BTW, I'm not knocking your ideals - they're admirable, and when everyone feels the same way as you we'll be much better off.

[Burgold]

You're right of course, reality often trumps philosophy... that's why those who hold to their philosophy despite the threat are so revered... Ghandi, Martin Luther King Jr., etc. Not that I'm equating myself with folks like that.

I do think I would rather be killed than to kill, but that I probably would fight to save someone else.

The closest I've ever come to a situation like this was when I was being threatened by a bunch of guys due to my religion. Luckily for me, I worked at a Psych hospital and was able to keep myself together. I am pretty sure that my calm unnerved them. If I had had a gun and pulled it what would have been the result. Would they flee? Would they rush me? Would it have turned out a number of them had guns? Would they have run and come back later with guns? A gun isn't necessarily a solution.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

I don't know who has been checking your criminal history, but running a CCH check is very simple if you have a terminal in which to run it. I guarantee no gun shop, gun show, Wal Mart, etc has a terminal that can access the NCIC files. The files of course are kept by the FBI and stored/maintained I believe in West Virginia. The State Police and FBI have very specific rules on the operation of the terminal and access to the NCIC files. For example, you cannot check a CCH from a mobile police cruiser over some type of wireless communication. It has to be from a terminal connected directly over wire. Also, try running the Presidents name and see how fast the Secret Service show up. Also, all CCH requests are tracked and logged as you can imagine.

What the hell is a CCH ? The FEDERAL check for firearms purchases is a NICS check. It's done over the phone by the gun dealer at the time of purchase and can take up to 72 hours by law. Most people are instantly or nearly instantly approved. I've personally never had one where the dealer got to hang up the phone before the approval came back for the purchase. I do know people who have had to wait up to 72 hours for the check to be completed, but they're the exception rather than the rule. The instant that NICS check is complete, the records are SUPPOSED to be destroyed. The only things remaining are the paper copy at the dealer's location which BATFE is supposed to collect and destroy on a monthly basis (after ensuring they match up with sales records) and the copy sent to the Communistwealth that they promptly lose.

If you're talking about the state checks for licenses, the Town of Spencer has never taken more than 48 hours to process mine. However, once they send it off to the State Criminal History Records Bureau, they take WEEKS to process the exact same request. Seems kind of fishy to me.

If I am correct, in my corner of the world of Fairfax, VA if you purchase a gun the paperwork gets sent to the local police department. The Department uses their terminals to check criminal history and send that information back to the gun shop. How long it takes is a matter of the paperwork getting to the Department, the Department processing the paperwork, and the store picking it back up. That of course just covers the criminal history check.

That is DEFINITELY not the way it works in MA, CT, NH, or ME. If that is so, it's one of the single dumbest systems I have ever heard of in my life, and a very good reason for me not to move to Virginia.

Always seeming to correct you Mass on some of the details.

In this case, we may both be right, Fred. I can't say for certain how your area of Virginia does things, but I do know that what you have described is DEFINITELY not how things work around here. I routinely walk into a gun shop, decide what I want, put an amount of cash on the counter, fill out the paperwork, and less than half an hour later walk out with a firearm. If the gun owners in your state CAN'T do that, I think they need to be talking to their legislators about how much those people want to be sent back to Richmond for another term in office.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

I think I may have misled you with my post - I do indeed have the ability to protect myself and my loved ones - in various calibers.

I meant that the ill conceived notion of all gun owners being wild west types or SWAT wannabees that can't wait to shoot it out is incorrect.

My apologies. Obviously I misread what you'd posted. I'm glad to hear that you have the tools and the ability to do what might be necessary to protect your family.

Yes, the notion that we're all Cowboys, Wild West types, militiaist, or SWAT wannabees is totally incorrect. Unfortunately, admitting that the vast supermajority of American gunowners were simply regular citizens that people live around, work with, and may interact with on a daily basis would destroy the scare tactic of the Gun Controllers out there

[DixieFlatline]

In this case, we may both be right, Fred. I can't say for certain how your area of Virginia does things, but I do know that what you have described is DEFINITELY not how things work around here. I routinely walk into a gun shop, decide what I want, put an amount of cash on the counter, fill out the paperwork, and less than half an hour later walk out with a firearm. If the gun owners in your state CAN'T do that, I think they need to be talking to their legislators about how much those people want to be sent back to Richmond for another term in office.

We may have to do the same in NC. Down here, you have to apply for a permit at the sheriff's office. That can take a few weeks until you get it. The permit is good for 5 years and that's what you give the gun shop when you purchase something.

[Baculus]

What I don't really get about the pro-gun folks is how a number of them are against registration. If you really want the gun for benign purposes (hunting, protection, shooting poor defenseless skeet or beer cans) than why be against registering for it? I think registration, background checks, and gun education should be a mandatory part of buying a gun. Personally, I wouldn't be opposed to a law preventing someone from buying a gun unless they've earned a licence showing that they know how to handle it safely. I'm also very for the thirty day waiting period just because in my mind there's little reason to want a gun right there, right now. At the very worst it means that you need a little forethought and at the very best it provides a cooling off period or a chance to think a little harder.

By and large, the registration will not affect criminals. After all, they are criminals and probably wouldn't bother registration a firearm if it was necessary. Why? Because they are criminals that are probably going to use the gun in a crime! Why would they bother to abide by the laws?

And that is the entire issue here: Most propositions that folks have about firearms COVERS ONLY LEGAL OWNERS and those who use firearms for legal purposes. That is aspect of this entire debate that appears to escape some folks: That more and more restrictive gun laws by and large affect legal gun owners, who end up scrambling more and more to meet the laws, meanwhile, the bad guys merely ignore these same laws.

Does that make sense to you?

[Baculus]

I know people that sleep with a gun next to their bed.

I know people that are never out in public without a concealed weapon. Sometimes more than one.

I know training instructors that work out of the NRA Headquarters here in Fairfax.

I know people that collect guns.

I know people that hunt and do it right by protecting the environment while they hunt.

I know people that are completely against guns.

I witnessed an anti-war/anti-violence protest in D.C.

I have at least one gun.

I have no problem with gun registration, background checks, and gun education.

Like any tool or device or whatever, you should know how to use it before using it. If you want to carry a gun you should be required to complete both classroom and firing range training.

People need to be taught some of the rules:

Never point a firearm at someone unless you intend to shoot them. (Always keep a gun pointed in a safe direction)

Always treat firearms as if they are loaded.

Always keep your finger off the trigger unless you intent to shoot.

Know your target and what is beyond.

Never mix alcohol/drugs/prescription medication with guns.

You need to train and practice to familiarize yourself with how to use a gun correctly. This can be done at a firing range or a backyard if you live in open country.

It sure does sound like you need to be a safety conscious and responsible person to own and use a gun. Those people generally don't have issues with registrations, background checks, education and training.

I also don't have an issue with some of your thoughts, except for the registration. And the sad fact is that those who tend to use firearms for violent, criminal reasons wouldn't abided this training, though I do think it is a good idea for many average pistol and rifle owners.

And here is the issue: Before the 70's, many folks who owned or would own firearms received some sort of training, whether it is the military, or their father or grandfather teaching them a thing or two about shooting, safety, etc., which is how I learned. After the Vietnam war, many of the 60's generation became anti-gun, so this cause helped a shift in attitudes toward firearms, combined with the (Cocaine) drug culture which encourage more violent gang violence. There has always been a certain underworld violent element in the United States, but you can really see such violence explore during the 80's, which is when the crack-craze started during that decade.

I believe the loss of some traditional moral rules to firearms in this nation, combined with a certain out-of-context violent glorification of culture, has led to more and more citizens who simply do not respect them.