'Fossil fuel' theory takes hit with NASA finding

[portisizzle]

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47675

'Fossil fuel' theory takes hit with NASA finding

worldnetdaily ^ | December 1, 2005

Posted on 12/02/2005 7:00:55 PM PST by seastay

New study shows methane on Saturn's moon Titan not biological NASA scientists are about to publish conclusive studies showing abundant methane of a non-biologic nature is found on Saturn's giant moon Titan, a finding that validates a new book's contention that oil is not a fossil fuel.

"We have determined that Titan's methane is not of biologic origin," reports Hasso Niemann of the Goddard Space Flight Center, a principal NASA investigator responsible for the Gas Chromatograph Mass Spectrometer aboard the Cassini-Huygens probe that landed on Titan Jan. 14. Niemann concludes the methane "must be replenished by geologic processes on Titan, perhaps venting from a supply in the interior that could have been trapped there as the moon formed."

The studies announced by NASA yesterday will be reported in the Dec. 8 issue of the scientific journal Nature.

"This finding confirms one of the key arguments in 'Black Gold Stranglehold: The Myth of Scarcity and the Politics of Oil,'" claims co-author Jerome R. Corsi. "We argue that oil and natural gas are abiotic products, not 'fossil fuels' that are biologically created by the debris of dead dinosaurs and ancient forests."

Methane has been synthetically created in the laboratory, Corsi points out, "and now NASA confirms that abiotic methane is abundantly found on Titan."

The realization that hydrocarbons are produced inorganically throughout our solar system was a key insight that led Cornell University astronomer Thomas Gold to write his 1998 book, "The Deep Hot Biosphere: The Myth of Fossil Fuels." Gold wrote:

It would be surprising indeed if the earth had obtained its hydrocarbons only from a source that biology had taken from another carbon-bearing gas – carbon dioxide – which would have been collected from the atmosphere by photo-synthesizing organisms for manufacture into carbohydrates and then somehow reworked by geology into hydrocarbons. All this, while the planetary bodies bereft of surface life would have received their hydrocarbon gifts by purely abiogenic causes. Gold wryly noted that he was sure there had not been any "big stagnant swamps on Titan" to produce the biological debris that conventionally trained geologists think was required on Earth to produce oil and natural gas as a "fossil fuel."

"If petroleum and natural gas are abiotic as we maintain in 'Black Gold Stranglehold,'" Corsi commented, "then the 'peak oil' fear that we are going to run out of oil may have been based on a giant misconception."

Paradigms in science change slowly and with great resistance, he noted, "But NASA has given us today incontrovertible evidence that Titan has abundant inorganic methane."

"If the scientists have ruled out that biological processes created methane on Titan, why do petro-geologists still argue that natural gas on Earth is of biological origin?" Corsi asked.

[Guest Gichin13]

whatever the source, isn't the question one of amount rather than source anyhow?

[NavyDave]

You mean there wasn't any Saudi or Iranian T Rexes who after a million years keeps my Navigator going to I-295?

Funny how I was shouted down when I didnt believe that theory.

Can't wait to tap into that Alaskan oil field and significantly decrease our dependence on foreign oil.

[stevenaa]

Regardless, it all depends on the speed of the process. And we still need to work towards alternative fuels for envirnonemtal reasons. Mainly I like to breath fresh air. But very interesting possibilities.

[chomerics]

I see nowhere that NASA mentions petrolium, only the author. . . also, the facts are pretty much proven that petrolium is from carbon deposits. They can trace back the deposits from things like peat bogs, then under rock, pressure & heat turn into petrol.

Just to add something, NASA has known Titan had a methane atmosphere for years, this was nothing new, just confirmed what they studied before.

[chomerics]

Can't wait to tap into that Alaskan oil field and significantly decrease our dependence on foreign oil.

The "alaskan oil" is not going to "decrease our dependence on forign oil", it will not even go to Americans :doh:

[Thiebear]

And the Russian proved that Super Deep wells can pull up more oil...

Back when the single cells died out and left all that oil .

[twa]

I startd a thread similar, The contention is it is formed by pressure in the earths crust and there are documented cases of resevoirs refilling.

The important factor is oil COULD still be being formed,rather than static amounts.

Abiotic oil ?/Sustainable oil?

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128697&highlight=abiotic+oil

heres another by tbear

Oil unlimited?

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99232&highlight=abiotic+oil

[portisizzle]

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=18410

Titan's Mysterious Methane Comes From Inside, Not The Surface

PRESS RELEASE

Date Released: Wednesday, November 30, 2005

Source: Goddard Space Flight Center

The methane giving an orange hue to Saturn's giant moon Titan likely comes from geologic processes in its interior according to measurements from the Gas Chromatograph Mass Spectrometer (GCMS), a Goddard Space Flight Center instrument aboard the European Space Agency's Huygens Probe. The GCMS, which descended with five other instruments on the probe through the moon's thick atmosphere on Jan. 14, 2005, also found evidence of liquid methane in the surface material.

Methane, a molecule consisting of four hydrogen atoms bound to a carbon atom, is the primary component of natural gas on Earth. It can be produced by life, by degradation of organic debris or by geologic processes like volcanoes.

The origin of methane in Titan's atmosphere is a mystery because it gets broken down by sunlight and particle radiation from space in the upper atmosphere. If surface lakes and pools were the only source, all of Titan's methane would be lost by this mechanism in less than a hundred million years, a short time for a moon that's been around since the formation of the solar system 4.5 billion years ago. Components of the methane molecules react with each other and atmospheric nitrogen. As they descend, they form larger and heavier molecules that comprise the orange haze that blankets the moon. Because Titan is very cold (292 degrees below zero F, or minus 180 degrees Celsius) these heavy compounds condense and rain out on the surface.

"We have determined that Titan's methane is not of biological origin, so it must be replenished by geologic processes on Titan, perhaps venting from a supply in the interior that could have been trapped there as the moon formed," said Dr. Hasso Niemann of Goddard, principal investigator for the GCMS and lead author of a paper on this research to appear in Nature on Dec. 8. An advance online publication will be available on Nov. 30 at

http://www.nature.com/nature/index.html.

Titan is believed to be too cold for life. Nevertheless, Niemann's team of scientists used Goddard's GCMS instrument to rule out a biological source for Titan's methane. The GCMS instrument identifies different atmospheric constituents by their mass. Molecules and atoms are given an electric charge (ionized) and are separated by their mass as they traverse an electric field in a quadruple mass spectrometer.

The carbon in methane molecules comes in different varieties, or isotopes – carbon-12 (12C) and carbon-13 (13C). Each 13C atom has an extra neutron in its nucleus, making them slightly heavier than 12C atoms, so the GCMS can distinguish between methane with 12C and methane with 13C.

Living organisms have a preference for carbon-12. As a result, carbon-containing molecules, such as methane, that are associated with life on Earth get enriched in 12C. The ratio of 12C to 13C is a marker or signature of life. However, the team did not see 12C enrichment in the methane on Titan.

Also, when the heated inlet of the GCMS came in contact with the surface, it vaporized some of the surface material. After impact, the GCMS detected a 40 percent increase in the number of methane molecules measured, and this level remained for about 50 minutes after impact. This long-lived burst is best explained by the presence of liquid methane mixed with the surface material, according to the team.

Other Huygens observations, such as pictures from the Descent Imager and Spectral Radiometer instrument, show features that look remarkably like dry riverbeds. Scientists have theorized that at Titan's cold temperatures, liquid methane plays the role of water on Earth, while deeply frozen water substitutes for rock. On Titan, liquid methane could cut channels in water ice the same way water carves canyons through rock. The presence of liquid methane on Titan's surface supports this scenario.

The Cassini-Huygens mission is a cooperative project of NASA, ESA and the Italian Space Agency. The Jet Propulsion Laboratory, a division of the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena, manages the Cassini-Huygens mission for NASA's Science Mission Directorate, Washington, D.C.

For more information on NASA and agency programs on the Web, visit:

http://www.nasa.gov

[stevenaa]

I see nowhere that NASA mentions petrolium, only the author. . . also, the facts are pretty much proven that petrolium is from carbon deposits. They can trace back the deposits from things like peat bogs, then under rock, pressure & heat turn into petrol.

Just to add something, NASA has known Titan had a methane atmosphere for years, this was nothing new, just confirmed what they studied before.

So do you discount the possibility that some portion of our "fossil fuels" are not from fossils afterall? Why would the earth be exempt from processes we're observing on other planets.

[NavyDave]

The "alaskan oil" is not going to "decrease our dependence on forign oil", it will not even go to Americans :doh:

Only if liberals throw mandates in the way to force the companies to stick with foreign resources.

However comma it does not mean that they will sell oil for 12 dollars a barrell when the majority of oil elsewhere is 55 to 70 dollars per barrell.

Just think if the liberal idiots were out of the way we would be half way toward having Anwar oil online and a great bargaining chip with OPEC.

[Guest Gichin13]

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=18410

Methane, a molecule consisting of four hydrogen atoms bound to a carbon atom, is the primary component of natural gas on Earth. It can be produced by life, by degradation of organic debris or by geologic processes like volcanoes.

So it seems like the actual NASA info does not advance the question much. They say methane can be formed by life (ew!!), degradation of organics, and geologic process. Isn't this simply stating what we already knew? I thought folks pretty consistently agreed that volcanic eruptions can spew large amounts of methane? That does not address the question of where the drilled fuels we are consuming came from.

I guess hypothetically, this finding supports geologic non-biologic sources of methane, but again I thought that was pretty well known. Maybe I am missing something.

[jbooma]

I honestly do not think we have a clue about what the earth can or can not do, and what is created from it or how. We care more about blaming humankind for everything instead of discovering the truth.

[DarkLadyRaven]

Only if liberals throw mandates in the way to force the companies to stick with foreign resources.

However comma it does not mean that they will sell oil for 12 dollars a barrell when the majority of oil elsewhere is 55 to 70 dollars per barrell.

Just think if the liberal idiots were out of the way we would be half way toward having Anwar oil online and a great bargaining chip with OPEC.

The oil company that gets to drill in Alaska will sell to the highest bidder, that may or may not be the United States-- could be India could be China. I think thats what chrom ment-- Opec would still have the majority of oil anyway-- the estimates of alaskan oil are nothing compared to Opec

[stevenaa]

The oil company that gets to drill in Alaska will sell to the highest bidder, that may or may not be the United States-- could be India could be China. I think thats what chrom ment-- Opec would still have the majority of oil anyway-- the estimates of alaskan oil are nothing compared to Opec

Then only approve the drilling with stipulations to assure the US benefits.

[portisizzle]

So it seems like the actual NASA info does not advance the question much. They say methane can be formed by life (ew!!), degradation of organics, and geologic process. Isn't this simply stating what we already knew? I thought folks pretty consistently agreed that volcanic eruptions can spew large amounts of methane? That does not address the question of where the drilled fuels we are consuming came from.

I guess hypothetically, this finding supports geologic non-biologic sources of methane, but again I thought that was pretty well known. Maybe I am missing something.

Actually the NASA info does advance the question; very much so...

""We have determined that Titan's methane is not of biological origin, so it must be replenished by geologic processes on Titan, perhaps venting from a supply in the interior that could have been trapped there as the moon formed," said Dr. Hasso Niemann of Goddard, principal investigator for the GCMS and lead author of a paper on this research to appear in Nature on Dec. 8."

[Raub]

To me that is more believable than the notion that millions of organisms died in exactly the same spot....forming oil.....but only in certain parts of the world.

[Prosperity]

Then only approve the drilling with stipulations to assure the US benefits.

You want State control of business?

[Johnny Punani2]

I honestly do not think we have a clue about what the earth can or can not do, and what is created from it or how. We care more about blaming humankind for everything instead of discovering the truth.

See global warming...

One of your better posts jbooma....

[Johnny Punani2]

And the Russian proved that Super Deep wells can pull up more oil...

Back when the single cells died out and left all that oil .

The Russians have been saying this for years. Looks like they were right.

[chomerics]

So do you discount the possibility that some portion of our "fossil fuels" are not from fossils afterall? Why would the earth be exempt from processes we're observing on other planets.

Petrolium? No, we have already proven where it comes from. Methane, that is a different story, and that could be generated inside our crust, but I highly doubt it. If this was the case, we would need a carbon source in our mantle, and everything we have studies says I mantle is made up of Magnesium, Aluminum, Iron and other metals. There are trace elements od Oxygen and silicates as well. In order for methane to be generated, it would need a carbon source.

[chomerics]

Then only approve the drilling with stipulations to assure the US benefits.

I agree, but this will not happen. It is basic economics, we can get more by exporting it, and it is cheaper to transport to Asia and Japan then to the US mainland.

[Thiebear]

I agree, but this will not happen. It is basic economics, we can get more by exporting it, and it is cheaper to transport to Asia and Japan then to the US mainland.

1. Actually we could do both: 300k a day which would be around 5th??? in what we import and export 200k and reduce your other pet peeve... the import/export deficit.. AND add to the amount in the world thus causing a slight decrease in supply/demand.

2. If we stepped up like WWII we could MAKE this happen with the Shale Oil and the Alaskan Oil to be the number 1 in oil usage in the US. Allowing China to suck it all up.

[dreamingwolf]

so methane can only come from organic things, bacteria specifficly?

[BlueTalon]

It is basic economics, we can get more by exporting it, and it is cheaper to transport to Asia and Japan then to the US mainland.

You're right about that, of course. And during normal times, that's exactly what would happen. But it's in the abnormal times of crisis, when OPEC is trying to extort us or a hurricane shuts down a large chunk of our infrastructure, that it would be a vital economic life-preserver.

But as long as that source of oil on our own property is kept out of our reach by our self-appointed do-gooders, we have no way to use it as leverage in a dire situation.

It reminds me of the California brown-outs under Grey Davis. California doesn't allow a powerplant to be built for more than 10 years... then there's a power shortage, and it's a surprise?!? Davis then turned around and blamed Texas for messing with the supply. That's laughable, but even if it were 100% true, it doesn't negate the fact that if California had been a little less liberal and allowed a few powerplants to be built, they wouldn't have had as severe of a problem.

I hope the analogy is self evident.