portisizzle Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 but if evolution/big bang are required learning in a science class, shouldn't creationism be put in as required learning somewhere in the curriculum. as a popular thought it should be broached not necessarily dwelled on, but mentioned.for me it is a moot point I am home schooling my son and any future children I do not know about the big bang, but evolution has substantial evidence to support the theory. Why not teach the intellectual point to the child and let them make their own decisions balanced with religious thought? You do have a point on the big bang. I would be critical of the big bang being taught as a theory that has passed the rigors of science such as has evolution. And one more point, why do you think evolution was not a part of Gods plan? That tadpole turning into a frog has to be explained somehow, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cakmoney61 Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 So let me pose this question to the religous extreme on here. What do you think of "religion" versus god? I have much less of a problem with the idea of a god than I do with the pratice of alot of organized religions. I have to point you back to the Bible. In the Bible, I am called a Christian or a follower and believer of Jesus Christ. To believe He was and is the Son of God, that He died for the sins of the world, that He was raised from the dead and ascended back to the Father, and that He was God in human form is where faith comes in. The question isn't "Does God exist?" That's an emphatic "yes!" For me, that doesn't take faith. The question is "How do I have a relationship with this God that I know exists?" The Bible teaches having a relationship with God begins and ends with Jesus Christ. Other religions teach other ways to God. To get into debates about the validity or lack thereof of other "religions" is not my cup of tea, because it doesn't save anyone. The Bible teaches me to glorify, magnify, proclaim, and exalt the Son of God, and He will draw men to His Heavenly Father. So I stick to building up Christ instead of tearing down other religions. The Bible teaches that the only way to the Father is through the Son, so that's what I believe. I really can't go any deeper than that. People who are not Christians wouldn't understand why I believe what I believe. As you can tell, I lean heavily on my Bible, because my opinion or thoughts apart from God and the Bible are meaningless and are of little value. I will say this, I know that what I believe is true because God's Spirit has taught me these things. This is what the Bible says about the Spirit: The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except a man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:10-14) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portisizzle Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 That schools are indoctrinating kids to hate religion and God by not teaching ID... I went to public school and they did not teach me to hate relgion. My hypocrit mother did that all on her own I have many problems with public schools. I should know, my wife is a third grade teacher. Indoctrinating kids to hate religion by not teaching ID is not the issue. I do not know anyone on this thread that has suggested that. You are off track with your observation. Maybe a read through this thread if you have the time would help you understand the points being brought up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gchwood Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 see I don't see a tadpole turning to a frog evolution, I see it as adaptation, just like a chameleon changes colors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70th Week Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 great,great thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portisizzle Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 I The question isn't "Does God exist?" That's an emphatic "yes!" For me, that doesn't take faith. The question is "How do I have a relationship with this God that I know exists?" The Bible teaches having a relationship with God begins and ends with Jesus Christ. Other religions teach other ways to God. To get into debates about the validity or lack thereof of other "religions" is not my cup of tea, because it doesn't save anyone. ) It may not be your cup of tea, however..... What do you think happens to a Buddist after life. Do you believe in a God that would prefer a man who followed the bibles teachings over a man who never knew or was taught about Jesus Christ? How many religions exist on this earth? Hundreds? Thousands? Which one is right? Can you tell me and save me the hassles after I die? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinking Skins Posted December 2, 2005 Author Share Posted December 2, 2005 What I do know about the Religion versus Science debate is that nothing good can possibly come from this thread. maybe you're right. I was just venting a little, I didn't mean to sound so controversial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cakmoney61 Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 My only problem with that is if god created everything because everything has to be created, who created god? Obviously, he's the exception to that rule. And if that's what's going to trip people up, I guess they will just have to stay tripped up, because He doesn't and never will have a maker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinking Skins Posted December 2, 2005 Author Share Posted December 2, 2005 Well first of all we are talking about HIGH SCHOOL classes, so the students really have no choice, they are going to taking a Science class. The question/debate is whether religion should be injected into science class. I'm not talking about teaching in HIGH SCHOOL. I'm talking about the actual beliefs. There are people that I talk with every day that believe this because they saw it on Discovery Channel and it looked good, but I try to ask questions to understand it better and I hear the statements about hatred of science or how they were never good in science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portisizzle Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 see I don't see a tadpole turning to a frog evolution, I see it as adaptation, just like a chameleon changes colors My wife, the teacher, is really into the tadpole thing. Just this past summer we showed the kids tadpole turning into frogs. Adaptation? Evolution? All I can say is nature figured out how to make a fish walk on land in a matter of weeks. If that is not a critical component of evolution theory then I will eat your socks. :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chomerics Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 Chrome,I copied two paragraphs from your response. I did so mainly to argue my point that creationism is a theory. Just because you choose not to engage yourself in a purly scientific way, that does not mean that we can not theorize that the universe was created. Maybe Creationist have yet to develop the proper science to explain their theory as well. I take offense when you claim that I am not engaging myself in a scientific way, when I absolutely am and you are trying to change the definition of science to suit your purposes. ID is not theory, that is FACT. You need emperical evidence, and predictions to start a theory. At absolute BEST, ID is just a hypothesis, but seeing as how there is no evidence to back it up, and it claims nothing, then it really doesn't fit that definition. You remember learning the process of scientific discovery don't you? Model-hypothesis-theory-law right? Well, I would recon that no laws in science are absolute, because we always refine them as we gain more knowledge. Take a look at Newton's "Laws" of gravity, and see how Einstein 's Relativity changed the laws because a better understainding of gravity was gained. Here is an explination by wiki, and it is why stating that ID is theory is false. The word theory is misunderstood particularly often by laymen. The common usage of the word "theory" refers to ideas that have no firm proof or support; in contrast, scientists usually use this word to refer to bodies of ideas that make specific predictions. To say "the apple fell" is to state a fact, whereas Newton's theory of universal gravitation is a body of ideas that explain why the apple fell. Thus a multitude of falling objects are reduced to a few concepts or abstractions interacting according to a small set of laws, allowing a scientist to make predictions about the behaviour of falling objects in general.An especially fruitful theory that has withstood the test of time and has an overwhelming quantity of evidence supporting it is considered to be "proven" in the scientific sense. Some universally accepted models such as heliocentric theory, biological evolution, and atomic theory are so well-established that it is nearly impossible to imagine them ever being falsified. Others, such as relativity and electromagnetism have survived rigorous empirical testing without being contradicted, but it is nevertheless conceivable that they will some day be supplanted. Younger theories such as string theory may provide promising ideas, but have yet to receive the same level of scrutiny. Do you see the difference yet? Do you understand why ID is not a theory? It can not, and has not been tested or over attempted ot be proven. It is a hypothesis, and that is extirely stretching the definition of science. In fact the beter word for ID or creationism is theological thought. It follows along the lines of the burning bush, the Garden of Eden and Adam and Eve. I will say this to your friend who says there is a theory of multiple universes. Does he believe in the concept of time? Because everything happens over time. For the sake of argument I will accept your friends theory. So now that I have accepted it, might I ask what happened before all these "10 dimensions" were created? I mean we are here now. What happened one hundred trillion googleplexes ago. So far in our 10 universes past that the "Big Bang" happened just five seconds ago in relative terms? Well, my "friend" is one of the brightest scientists on the face of the planet. He isn't really my friend, but a colleague that I have had the pleasure to speak to outside of work. He is a professor at Harvard, and he runs the AST/RO telescope on the South Pole. He has made many different scientific discoveries, and he is one of the smartest people I have ever met in my life. As for the concept of time, he would tell you there is no such thing as time independent of observation. Time is relative to the observer, and the speed at which the observer travels. It is a well known and proven scientific fact that as your velocity increases, time actually slows down. There is an equation in relativity which describes exactly this phenominon, and it has been tested and proven many times. I am saying to you Chrome, when you get past the concept of trying to explain this 10 universe deal, I want to know what was going on one hundred trillon googleplexes before that first singularity existed. You can only use this to go back so far before you must accept the conclusion that there must be a beginning. And before that beginning there was nothing, not even the vast vacuum of space. You will not be able to understand what happens before the singularity until we discover how the mathematics works behind this article of nature. I also don't have to accept there was ever a beginning, as far as before the big bang. Everything I have understood about science is so small and remote in the realms of everything, I can not possible answer the question. . . but on the other hand, everything in OUR universe tells us that there was a definate beginning, this is done through experimentation. There was a creation point, and there are ideas about how this came about, I have listed one in my previous post. That is the conclusion that requires the answer we are striving for. And it is the one answer that we will never get with scientific thought. That is quite a bold statement considering how little you really know about science. How do you know we will never understand it? Because you don't and because at this point in time, we don't know? Science always evolves and gains greater knowledge as we get older. In the 1000's the church said the world was flat and nobody could comprehend that the earth was round. They said the earth was the center of the universe, but that was proven wrong. Throught our brief history, sciencs has faced opposition like yours and has proven the nay-sayers wrong. Why should I think anything but science will figure out that one too? I remember Tarhog speaking of an ant trying to fathom the distance to the United States while he is standing on the beach in Africa. Point is, that ant will never understand the sheer complexity of that thought. We as humans are in the same place with respect to our universe. No better off than the ant standing on the beach in Africa pondering how far it is to get to the United States. Yet I listen to you and your friend trying to assimilate in some scientific way an understanding of the impossible. You are very industrious in your quest to understand, and that is admirable. However, an ant is also industrious being able to pick up and move items much heavier that they are to help build their homes. No one is questioning your determination nor the determination of an ant. What is being questioned is your attempt to explain the unexplainable. To the objective ear, you sound like the ant on the African beach pondering something that it can not possibly concieve in its mind. Yet, as I mentioned before, in 1000 people could not possible comprehend automobiles, electricity, computers, and everything else. What makes the position you are taking now any different then the people who states that the Earth was flat? Nothing in my eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cakmoney61 Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 The middle east says the same about christians. I postulate this.I just think organized religion has caused more suffering death and strife in the world than any dictator ever thought about. It swings back and forth over who is more powerful and who is repressing who, but religions are always at war with one another and both are absolute in their beleif they are right and the others are wrong. I see god and organized religion as different issues. Believe in god all you want, I even believe he might be there, but most organized religions are about money and control. I agree with you. Personally I don't practice religion; I'm in a sincere and heartfelt relationship with the Living God through Christ. The Bible warns that many people masquerade as "angels of light." All they are doing is deceiving and being deceived. The Bible calls them experts in greed among other things. The Bible also makes it clear that they will not go unpunished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chomerics Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 school is exactly the place.that is what is wrong with the youth of this country.this country was founded by christian men on christian values.if you dont like it,get out.i bet you wont go to a middle eastern country and discredit allah.you will get shot!!we need to stand up for what this country stands for,not any wind and wave of doctrine. This is by far the most disturbing post I have read in the Tailgate in a while. Our founding fathers would be turning over in their grave if they heard you deflaming them like that. You need to open your eyes up some, and realize that everyone is not as narrowminded like yourself. Just because you believe something does not give you the right to tell others how to think. That is completely totalitarian, and maybe you should instead move to a country that thinks like yourself. . . I don't know, maybe Germany in the late 30's for a start. :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portisizzle Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 Chrome, I would simply ask your brilliant colleague and luminary if something can be created from nothing. In other words can he make the simple mathematical formula a x 0 = something other that ZERO...... With all due respect, of course. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chomerics Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 But why should the 15% dictate society? we live in a democracy (at least in theory, there is that word again) when we let the vast minority control the whole it is not beneficial for the maximum amount of people. than we have an aristocracy, where the people who do not agree with the majority are the leaders and put there will on the majority Where in the world do you get the number that 15% of the people in America believe in evolution? That is an outrageously false number, and you have stated it numerous times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rincewind Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 This is by far the most disturbing post I have read in the Tailgate in a while. Our founding fathers would be turning over in their grave if they heard you deflaming them like that. You need to open your eyes up some, and realize that everyone is not as narrowminded like yourself. Just because you believe something does not give you the right to tell others how to think. That is completely totalitarian, and maybe you should instead move to a country that thinks like yourself. . . I don't know, maybe Germany in the late 30's for a start. :doh: exactly, like i said in an earlier post - this country was also founded on certain beliefs, one of them the freedom to choose your own religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portisizzle Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 You need to open your eyes up some, and realize that everyone is not as narrowminded like yourself. : ................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chomerics Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 Chrome,I would simply ask your brilliant colleague and luminary if something can be created from nothing. In other words can he make the simple mathematical formula a x 0 = something other that ZERO...... With all due respect, of course. Chris There is discussion right now in astrophysics about just this. It all stems form the matter-antimatter battle at the beginning of the universe, as I understand it, which is not really, the debate is on whether the big bang can indeed create matter. That is what they are looking at right now, and although they are far far from anything conclusive, it is being studied and attacked and scrutinized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinking Skins Posted December 2, 2005 Author Share Posted December 2, 2005 Source? The only source I claim is the people I interact with in my everyday life. These people are enough to baffle me beyond amazement. I don't have any opinion of you or your beliefs, and if you don't fall into this category then this is not about you. But if you do, then help me to understand what you're thinking. But the only people I'm referring to are the ones I've been in contact with who have actually made those statements to me. So I guess from the above, you are an expert on all things theological and biblical related. That's good, we can use your resources in future debates. I didn't mean to give that impression, and let me assure you that I am no expert. But I do want to understand these things better, both the Biblical and the scientific. If you were to ask me why I believe in the Bible, its not just because 'the Bible tells me to.' I have many reasons for this and when somebody questions my faith, I start to give reasons. When I go to a person who believes in pure science and ask them a question about their faith, they are quick to either (1) - turn the conversation against my religion; (2) Call me stupid for not believing the obvious; (3) Falsely say that things are provable; or (4) just get mad and walk away. Normally in the process of this I hear the statements about their dislike of science growing up, or how they never understood it. How then can they believe in what they do not understand? I think what we've all learned from this is that the people you associate with are idiots. Idiots may be a bit strong, but I'm not about to spend a lot of time defending them. I dont want to prove anything, I was just venting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cakmoney61 Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 It may not be your cup of tea, however.....What do you think happens to a Buddist after life. Do you believe in a God that would prefer a man who followed the bibles teachings over a man who never knew or was taught about Jesus Christ? How many religions exist on this earth? Hundreds? Thousands? Which one is right? Can you tell me and save me the hassles after I die? Could you please restate your point and your question? I'm not sure what you are saying or asking me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chomerics Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 but if evolution/big bang are required learning in a science class, shouldn't creationism be put in as required learning somewhere in the curriculum. as a popular thought it should be broached not necessarily dwelled on, but mentioned. Because big bang is science, creatonism is religon. for me it is a moot point I am home schooling my son and any future children if you are going to home school your kids, why do you give a rats kahootie what public school teaches? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portisizzle Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 There is discussion right now in astrophysics about just this. It all stems form the matter-antimatter battle at the beginning of the universe, as I understand it, which is not really, the debate is on whether the big bang can indeed create matter. That is what they are looking at right now, and although they are far far from anything conclusive, it is being studied and attacked and scrutinized. So can I stop teaching my kids math and basic algebra in advance of this pending monumental discovery. :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portisizzle Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 Because big bang is science, creatonism is religon. Big Bang is a theory. Creationism is a theory. Both are a theory of how the universe began. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinking Skins Posted December 2, 2005 Author Share Posted December 2, 2005 Hello? SuomynonA, you still here? you can't start a thread posing questions that you know will spark a debate then abandon it. Maybe he/she just doesn't like the answers given :whoknows: I didnt expect the thread to get this populated this soon. I have been busy all morning and this is my first free moment. But these are some interesting responses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rincewind Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 I didnt expect the thread to get this populated this soon. I have been busy all morning and this is my first free moment. But these are some interesting responses. understandable - and yes the thread did kinda take off - its been a good debate, especially since it hasn't sunk to name calling. glad you came back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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