Gibbs says Griffin best DT he's ever coached..

[tr1]

Griffin is very, very good. Better than a slew of interior linemen we've had there in the last dozen years. Butz, Grant and Griffin have been the best for us.

[SkinsFTW]

<Ed McMahon voice> "You are correct, sir!"

I'm a big Butz lover. Be careful now.

Actually, you are the one who should be careful, lol. :laugh:

[JoeKnowsBest]

Butz must have been before my time. I've never heard of him before.

Greg Williams said in his chat (in response to my question about Cornelius being under rated) that there isn't no other DT he'd rather have right now.

That comment in the first post sounds more like somthing Coach Williams would have said.

[GURU]

Butz must have been before my time. I've never heard of him before,

Okay, JoeKnowsBest, you shouldn't be allowed to use that name if you don't know who Dave Butz is. Ever heard of Diron Talbert? Ron McDole? Bill Brundige? Manny Sistrunk?

Look, I've got a serious problem if you don't even have a rudimentary knowledge of important players in your team's past. You have every right to post on this board, but you look like an absolute dipsh!t if you make a comment like, "Never heard of Dave Butz." Everyone has a right to be stupid, but PA-LEAZE!!!! If you want to have an intelligent conversation with fellow Redskins fans, please appear to have just a WEE bit of knowledge.

Anyway, Griffin still needs some more time to establish himself, career-wise. It's often difficult to compare players, such as Butz--who play so well for so long--with a player just entering his prime.

But talent-wise, with what they do on the field, Butz is the only one who I would consider better than Griffin. Butz and Griffin are different animals, too, based on the way they play(ed) the position. Butz was a classic plugger and pocket-pusher. He ate up double teams and, at worst, never gave up ground. Butz created opportunities for the players around him because offenses were forced to double-team him every play. He was more athletic than usually given credit for, but Butz was chiefly a freakishly strong power player. Griffin, on the other hand, is a disruptor. He's got an unusual combination of power and athletic ability. Where this shows up is his ability to wreak havoc in the backfield. He doesn't get a lot of sacks, but you'll ALWAYS find Griffin near the ball, forcing a RB or QB to do something different than what they had in mind. Cornelius has unusually high tackle stats for a defensive tackle, and you'll always find him at or near the top of the league in tackles-for-loss, despite being the focus of interior blocking schemes. Someone here already mentioned it, but it does beg the question: What IF Griffin played alongside another DT like Dave Butz?

Darryl Grant was undersized, hard charging--a typical overachieving Joe Gibbs-type player. He had one crazy, Pro Bowl-quality season in '84, but was chiefly a rotational player most of his career. Guys like Perry Brooks, Tony McGee, Dean Hamel, Steve Hamilton, and Marcus Koch often replaced Darryl on passing downs. Grant took advantage of playing on a line with the likes of Dave Butz, Dexter Manley, and Charles Mann and made the most of his opportunities. Look, I'm a Grant fan, but he simply wasn't anywhere near the player Griffin is.

Jumpy Geathers was a DT of prodigious talent, but--unfortunately--injury robbed him of ability to max out his talent. His gimpy knees sapped him of the ability to be a great all-around defensive tackle. If you are talking, strictly, about DTs who played for Joe Gibbs, Geathers was a role player who got less playing time than Darryl Grant. I think Gibbs and Richie Pettitbon used Geathers most effectively. When he played 10-20 plays a game, he was unstoppable--see the forklift move. But Geathers was much less effective when used as a full-time player--both in New Orleans and in Atlanta. Griffin's effectiveness as a full-time, all-around DT makes him better, in my book.

The defensive tackles who started the '91 season--Tim Johnson and Eric Williams--were fine, solid players. But you'll probably notice that they never played as well, elsewhere as they did in Washington. Those guys were underrated and, again, typical Joe Gibbs players. But I don't think they approached the talent or consistancy that Griffin has shown, so far, in either New York or Washington.

I can definately see why Gibbs would make that statement. Hopefully, they can find Cornelius some more help and take some of the focus off him.

[fayz]

whats wrong with u lot? have you forgotten our great 1st round pick of 1991 DT bobby wilson? hahahaha

well its between griffin and butz but too early to say griffin is better lets hope he performs at this level for a few more years b4 we compare the 2

also like others have said,i wonder how good griffin would have been with manley n mann as his 2 DE's? i think all 3 of them would have got 10 + sacks?!

[redman]

Griffin is far better at penetrating and making plays upfield than any of them. He's an up-tackle, which is a specialized position that guys like Rod Coleman and Kevin Williams play. Unlike the other DT, their job is to get upfield and disrupt the play in the backfield.

Butz and Geathers only did that occasionally and were best as run stuffers at the line of scrimmage. Grant was a converted offensive guard who was surprisingly good, but who I think looked a lot better because Butz would get so many double teams next to him.

[dgreen]

Look, if Gibbs says Griff is one of the best he's coached, then he's one of the best he's coached. He also said Brunell wasn't done as a Redskin and we all scoffed. Guess what. Gibbs knows a thing or two about football. Just because we all sat on our couches and fell in love with Butz doesn't make us more qualified than Gibbs to say whether Griff is in that class or not.

And, stop with the "we need to see a few more years before putting him up there with Butz" nonsense. Yes, we do, but NFL coaches have a way of analyzing these things and making that determination much quicker than we do. Gibbs doesn't need to see anymore to put Griffin up there. For some crazy reason, I'll take his word.

[diego1115]

Look, if Gibbs says Griff is one of the best he's coached, then he's one of the best he's coached. He also said Brunell wasn't done as a Redskin and we all scoffed. Guess what. Gibbs knows a thing or two about football. Just because we all sat on our couches and fell in love with Butz doesn't make us more qualified than Gibbs to say whether Griff is in that class or not.

And, stop with the "we need to see a few more years before putting him up there with Butz" nonsense. Yes, we do, but NFL coaches have a way of analyzing these things and making that determination much quicker than we do. Gibbs doesn't need to see anymore to put Griffin up there. For some crazy reason, I'll take his word.

i totally agree.....

[ouvan59]

Griffin is far better at penetrating and making plays upfield than any of them. He's an up-tackle, which is a specialized position that guys like Rod Coleman and Kevin Williams play. Unlike the other DT, their job is to get upfield and disrupt the play in the backfield.

Butz and Geathers only did that occasionally and were best as run stuffers at the line of scrimmage. Grant was a converted offensive guard who was surprisingly good, but who I think looked a lot better because Butz would get so many double teams next to him.

Agreed. Butz and Griffin are two different animals from different eras. But Dave Butz was a dominant force for about 14 years in the NFL. He got very little press but while he was here you did not run against the Skins, EVER. His pass rush skills were underrated as well. Grant was a very good DT but I wouldn't put him in Butz' class.

I also don't know why everybody is putting Jumpy Geathers into the conversation. He was a pass rushing specialist who did a good job knocking down passes at DE but he was far from a dominant player in the Griffin-Butz mold. Not saying he was bad but he was a role player for the Skins.

[Newera]

I trust Gibbs.

[Boss_Hogg]

That is a huge compliment for Griff, especially since Gibbs has worked with Charles Mann, Dexter Manley :doh:, and Dave Butz.

[trez]

He's no Dana Stubblefield, thats for certain

[DCMONEY]

Okay, JoeKnowsBest, you shouldn't be allowed to use that name if you don't know who Dave Butz is. Ever heard of Diron Talbert? Ron McDole? Bill Brundige? Manny Sistrunk?

Look, I've got a serious problem if you don't even have a rudimentary knowledge of important players in your team's past. You have every right to post on this board, but you look like an absolute dipsh!t if you make a comment like, "Never heard of Dave Butz." Everyone has a right to be stupid, but PA-LEAZE!!!! If you want to have an intelligent conversation with fellow Redskins fans, please appear to have just a WEE bit of knowledge.

Anyway, Griffin still needs some more time to establish himself, career-wise. It's often difficult to compare players, such as Butz--who play so well for so long--with a player just entering his prime.

But talent-wise, with what they do on the field, Butz is the only one who I would consider better than Griffin. Butz and Griffin are different animals, too, based on the way they play(ed) the position. Butz was a classic plugger and pocket-pusher. He ate up double teams and, at worst, never gave up ground. Butz created opportunities for the players around him because offenses were forced to double-team him every play. He was more athletic than usually given credit for, but Butz was chiefly a freakishly strong power player. Griffin, on the other hand, is a disruptor. He's got an unusual combination of power and athletic ability. Where this shows up is his ability to wreak havoc in the backfield. He doesn't get a lot of sacks, but you'll ALWAYS find Griffin near the ball, forcing a RB or QB to do something different than what they had in mind. Cornelius has unusually high tackle stats for a defensive tackle, and you'll always find him at or near the top of the league in tackles-for-loss, despite being the focus of interior blocking schemes. Someone here already mentioned it, but it does beg the question: What IF Griffin played alongside another DT like Dave Butz?

Darryl Grant was undersized, hard charging--a typical overachieving Joe Gibbs-type player. He had one crazy, Pro Bowl-quality season in '84, but was chiefly a rotational player most of his career. Guys like Perry Brooks, Tony McGee, Dean Hamel, Steve Hamilton, and Marcus Koch often replaced Darryl on passing downs. Grant took advantage of playing on a line with the likes of Dave Butz, Dexter Manley, and Charles Mann and made the most of his opportunities. Look, I'm a Grant fan, but he simply wasn't anywhere near the player Griffin is.

Jumpy Geathers was a DT of prodigious talent, but--unfortunately--injury robbed him of ability to max out his talent. His gimpy knees sapped him of the ability to be a great all-around defensive tackle. If you are talking, strictly, about DTs who played for Joe Gibbs, Geathers was a role player who got less playing time than Darryl Grant. I think Gibbs and Richie Pettitbon used Geathers most effectively. When he played 10-20 plays a game, he was unstoppable--see the forklift move. But Geathers was much less effective when used as a full-time player--both in New Orleans and in Atlanta. Griffin's effectiveness as a full-time, all-around DT makes him better, in my book.

The defensive tackles who started the '91 season--Tim Johnson and Eric Williams--were fine, solid players. But you'll probably notice that they never played as well, elsewhere as they did in Washington. Those guys were underrated and, again, typical Joe Gibbs players. But I don't think they approached the talent or consistancy that Griffin has shown, so far, in either New York or Washington.

I can definately see why Gibbs would make that statement. Hopefully, they can find Cornelius some more help and take some of the focus off him.

My USERNAME on Madden is Butz00065, BUTZ 123 & BUTZ 1234. I think Butz was one of the best run stoppers we've ever had.

[36HAMMER]

We haven't haven't had a good tackle like him for quite sometime.and don't insult us with big daddy and stubby, let's not go there. he's better than i thought he would be. i am very pleased with his play. as far as what gibbs said i do believe he is qualified to say that griffen is one of the best he's ever coached, sinse he infact is the one who has coached them both.don't get me wrong i think BIG Dave butz was incredible to the point you never thought about him cause he did his job soo well.like the tackle on elway in the superbowl when he tried to run in for a td.