My opinion of our Wide Receivers...

[TheLongshot]

I'm not here to blow sunshine up anyone's behind. I like Patten a lot. But one injury to this unit and we're right back to running the ball all game and throwing quick hitch passes. Chris Cooley is a nice complimentary player, but this team is not good enough to throw the ball (in the regular season) the way they have thus far (in the preseason) as evidenced by all the turnovers.

First off, preseason != regular season. I don't expect that we will be throwing as much as we have, it is just that Gibbs wanted to work on that side of the ball. Gibbs likes to run the ball, and I expect that we will be doing a lot of that, no matter what.

That being said, I think it is an exaggeration on your part that we are one injury away from not having a passing game. We have plenty of guys with speed at the WR position. Thrash is a solid guy who can get himself open and catch some passes. The only real question on our squad is Taylor, and that's because he hasn't played. I'm quite confortable by our receivers.

I also don't think Heath Miller would be that much of an upgrade over Cooley, because I think Cooley can be that good.

You know, for all your love for Mike Williams, the reality is, rookie receivers usually don't do all that much as rookies. Also, there are still questions about his speed on the field. No one debates his catching ability, but I really wonder if he would have really addressed your concerns. Personally, I'm glad we have Carlos Rogers, since DB is looking a little thin right now.

Jason

[Mr. Grundle]

Who are these above-average receivers the Giants aquired that I didn't hear about?

[ChocolateCitySkin]

if this is the model, then don't expect much from Ramsey. Don't expect Drew Bledsoe because he simply doesn't have the supporting cast. Expect Trent Dilfer if that's the model.

Personally, i think they thought McCants would come through as a redzone target and that was a mistake.

The Skins were terrible in the redzone last year, and I don't see how that has been improved.

Thats all I expected. I don't think too many people on this board are thinking we're going to be lighting up the scoreboards with the passing game.

[bulldog]

and with all those wide receivers:

1. the Lions missed the playoffs

2. the Rams were 8-8 and finished second in a poor division in 2004

3. the Cardinals didn't get to .500

4. the Giants were 6-10

[TLusby]

I am happy with the WR's and think Dyson has a whole lot of game left in him. He dropped one last week but so has Monk, Rice, and other greats. He has played well in the other games and could be a #2 or #3 in half of the NFL teams.

[825patb]

A couple of points to make here, and then i'll leave it alone because it appears everyone else is pretty content with the mediocrity of our passing attack.

Firstly, Miller and Cooley play totally different positions. I don't think i need to lecture a Redskins fan about the difference between an Hback and a TE but it is significant. As significant as the difference between TE and WR. I'm voting for Heath Miller instead of Brian Koslowski. i like Cooley but he's no longer a well-kept secret. Everyone knows he's Ramsey's only redzone target...could mike Sellers have been any more open on the Cooley TD pass last Friday?

Mike Williams = spilled milk. I'll agree to that. but my point about the WRs is still valid. Does anyone get excited when they see a pass being thrown to james Thrash. if you do, then don't let me spoil your fun. And hold onto those Jenny McCarthy swimsuit videos as long as you can.

Lastly, the Redskins are not following a Ravens model. How could you think that? They don't even have a pass rushing end. Do you really think joe Gibbs, a prideful HOF coach is going to sit back and say 'well our offense isn't good enough so we'll just rely on Gregg and the defense?" Why did the Redskins draft Campbell? It's not because they wanted to strengthen the defense. Same goes for the addition of Moss and Patten. This team wants to throw the ball. Gibbs wants to throw the ball. And i think McCants was a huge disappointment (especially after they made him a lucrative salary increase last year) leaving them with little size down the middle of the field. Those quick outs are not fooling anyone. You have to be able to go down the middle of the field the way Patten did once and Moss (unsucessfully). It opens up the edge running game, which is what Portis is suited to.

Almost none of the top QBs are doing it without a TE. The Redskins are way behind in this area.

[ChocolateCitySkin]

Of course he is going to be attempting to improve the offense. But, look where he has drafted in the past two years. A great defense will always keep you in the game even if your offense stinks. Moreover, it takes a lot longer to build a great offense than defense.

[GURU]

Funny how some of us worry about the health of our smallish receivers, then complain if they run out-of-bounds to avoid the big hit.

Look, I don't know how many of you actually SAW Gary Clark play, but there are some lessons to be learned from him. Clark had a reputation for being extremely tough and for catching passes over the middle, despite his diminutive stature (smaller than both Moss and Patten). And it's a reputation he rightly earned. But if you actually saw him play on a frequent basis, you would also know that he played SMART, and didn't take unneccessary hits. His signature move was also a spin move, where he would catch a pass on a comeback pattern, fake one direction and spin to the other direction. It almost always left defenders grasping air and Clark would gain a lot of extra yardage that way. However, when he knew he had maximized the yardage, he would frequently dive to the ground, underneath tacklers.

Clark WAS fearless over the middle, but it was because he was fantastic at gaining separation and a master at finding the soft areas in zone coverages, and because he knew how to AVOID the big hit.

It's one thing if a big running back tries to run over a guy instead of running out of bounds. He's trying to dole out punishment as well as gain an extra yard or two. It's a psychological thing. But tell me, what psychological advantage can be gained by Santana Moss or David Patten taking big safeties or linebacker head on? If these guys catch a pass two yards shy of a first down, I have no doubts they'll fight to get to the marker. But if they've already got the first down, what's the point of gaining an extra two yards if you gotta take a big hit with it?

[bulldog]

the Redskins pass offense will be more productive than in 2004 with the current cast.

there is this bias here on the part of some towards big names and guys that wind up with 100 catches.

if you go back and look a lot of Super Bowl teams didn't have guys that lead their conference in receptions or yardage.

what you have to have is a productive group. a group that is consistent and is on the same page as the OC and quarterback.

all I hear is 'Moss hasn't proven he can play'.........yada, yada, yada.............

well he has done one thing in the NFL that Mike Williams has not done as of yet:

catch 70 balls for 1,100 yards and 10 touchdowns in a 16 game schedule

2004?

Oh, he was a real failure there. He averaged 18.6 yards per reception and returned a kick for a TD in the playoffs to help his team win.

That doesn't count for anything :laugh:

No, we should have kept Darnerian McCants and drafted Mike Williams, then we would be SURE of picking up that first down on a 3rd and 2 pass reception

[825patb]

I would argue Gibbs is following more of a Patriots model than a Ravens model. The Ravens model won one championship. The Patriots model three. And as great as the Patriots defense has been for the last three superbowls, I don't think anyone is comparing them to the Ravens team that did it with Trent Dilfer at the helm. That defense was all alone out there, they knew it, and they could score points to win games. Similar to the Bucs defense a few years ago.

I do not doubt that Gibbs is looking for balance. So it's not the Ravens model he's going for. He wants to throw the ball. And I think it's going to be tough with the people we have on offense. I like the line, and I like the backs. but Moss and Jacobs spend a lot of time in the training room (not to mention Portis here and there), and injuries are a harsh reality in the league. I think Patten is going to have a career year. but the Skins are missing a big piece that other successful offenses (note: not necessarily successful teams) have had.

[TheLongshot]

Firstly, Miller and Cooley play totally different positions. I don't think i need to lecture a Redskins fan about the difference between an Hback and a TE but it is significant. As significant as the difference between TE and WR. I'm voting for Heath Miller instead of Brian Koslowski. i like Cooley but he's no longer a well-kept secret. Everyone knows he's Ramsey's only redzone target...could mike Sellers have been any more open on the Cooley TD pass last Friday?

You are forgetting someone: Royal and his 6 TD catches?

Lastly, the Redskins are not following a Ravens model. How could you think that? They don't even have a pass rushing end. Do you really think joe Gibbs, a prideful HOF coach is going to sit back and say 'well our offense isn't good enough so we'll just rely on Gregg and the defense?" Why did the Redskins draft Campbell? It's not because they wanted to strengthen the defense. Same goes for the addition of Moss and Patten. This team wants to throw the ball. Gibbs wants to throw the ball. And i think McCants was a huge disappointment (especially after they made him a lucrative salary increase last year) leaving them with little size down the middle of the field. Those quick outs are not fooling anyone. You have to be able to go down the middle of the field the way Patten did once and Moss (unsucessfully). It opens up the edge running game, which is what Portis is suited to.

When your offense is one of the worst in the league, you look to improve where they were weak, which they did. The defense didn't need much, just to fill the holes left by departures in free agency.

BTW, did you miss that catch by Moss where he went up for the ball, battleing against the DB for it and made the catch? Somehow, I don't think he's going to have a problem, despite the lack of "size". Certainly, Marvin Harrison's size doesn't hurt him as a WR. In fact, none of the Colts starters are above 6'. I guess that means they better get Aaron Moorhead on the field, because, dang, they need that size...

Jason

[bulldog]

yep, 343 carries during the regular season at 200 pounds and Portis is a guy who is known for being a training room junkie, eh?

that statement is just silly on the face of it.

second, compared to Lavernaues Coles Santana Moss is the picture of health.

if we are going to look at the Patriots let's also consider how many injuries they have had to overcome.

Troy Brown never missed any games the past 4 years? How about Deion Branch?

Of course, top pick tight end Daniel Graham came right in in 2002 after being drafted and posted a 75 catch season, right?

Antowain Smith didn't average 3.7 yards a carry during the 2003 run to the Super Bowl now did he?

No, the Patriots had running backs gaining 1,700 yards each season, receivers posting 110 catches and tight ends averaging 18.0 yards per catch, right?

Yep

that's the way I remember it too

[Donita35]

Dyson dropped a pass

I was not impressed with this guy at all. I hope he is not intending to be our third receiver. I'd rather take chances with Thrash. At least he can catch and he is an athlete. He wants the ball and he wants to make plays.

[Donita35]

So far i am happy with what I've seen in Moss and Patten. But let's be honest, if either guy goes down with an injury, the Skins do not have a legitimate passing game. James Thrash would not start for any other team in the league.

I find it increasingly difficult to put so much emphasis on QB play when the Skins have the worst TEs in the league and one of the worst receiving units. Yes, i like Moss, Patten, and even Brown...but after that the drop off is steep. Dyson is a joke.

Mike Williams would have been a nice addition, not to mention Heath Miller.

What about McCants? I think he is a baller and he needs more opportunites. Plus he has the size that we are missing with Moss and Patten. :gaintsuck

[TLusby]

What about McCants? I think he is a baller and he needs more opportunites. Plus he has the size that we are missing with Moss and Patten. :gaintsuck

He was cut today!

[Donita35]

and with all those wide receivers:

1. the Lions missed the playoffs

2. the Rams were 8-8 and finished second in a poor division in 2004

3. the Cardinals didn't get to .500

4. the Giants were 6-10

Not to mention the Vikins missed the playoffs as well even with Moss.

[Luca Brasi]

What about McCants? I think he is a baller and he needs more opportunites. Plus he has the size that we are missing with Moss and Patten. :gaintsuck

Not sure if you're joking or not, but I'll play along. Have you read any other threads today? Might want to give 'em a quick glance.

[bulldog]

I think the Skins should look seriously at bringing back Leslie Shepherd and Derrius Thompson too

These were both players that some Redskins' fans were crying about when they went elsewhere.

And what did they do once they left town?

Nothing on the stat sheet that is worth much

Soaked up some other teams' dollars for a couple of years and then disappeared

[Donita35]

He was cut today!

Thanks for letting me know.

[Commander Adama]

Firstly, Miller and Cooley play totally different positions. I don't think i need to lecture a Redskins fan about the difference between an Hback and a TE but it is significant. As significant as the difference between TE and WR. I'm voting for Heath Miller instead of Brian Koslowski. i like Cooley but he's no longer a well-kept secret. Everyone knows he's Ramsey's only redzone target...could mike Sellers have been any more open on the Cooley TD pass last Friday?

The primary difference of an H-Back versus a TE is the H-Back can be set in motion, while the TE is off the Tackle. Gibbs uses Cooley a lot in the passing game while keeping his TE's in for more protection. So, no I really don't see how having Williams and Miller versus over Rogers and Campbell is much better. I would actually take the opposite opinion since we have fantastic catching ability in Cooley, a depleted secondary, and no top tier QB. Campbell touted by a lot of analysts and commentator as having "it" to be a great QB in the NFL and Gibbs wants to start grooming him early, especially where Free Agency can take Ramsey next year. This will give JC enough time under Gibbs to give the Redskins a shot. As far as the Wide Receivers are concerned, the Patriots have been winning Superbowls without "Star" Receivers. They preferred to use Blue Collar, Hard Working Receivers to get the job done. You say our Wideouts are mediocre; I say let's wait and see.

[REDSKINS BUB]

Did We Not Just Play Against Heath Miller? What Were His Stats?

[bluelang]

I'm not forgetting about Jacobs. He is an average NFL receiver with a propensity for injuries. He is average. When i look at other teams rosters, I see several legitimate playmakers amidst the TE and WRs. Just look at the Giants.

how the hell do you or anyone else who isn't a coach know more about TJ than the rest of us? until he gets in some games, he's a mystery to everyone.

as for Portis catching out of the backfield, i seem to recall him tearing it up on a reception friday night.

[Big Weirdo]

Let's remember, Thrash was a starter for the Eagles (matter of fact he was the #1 WR) and they did with him.

Take it from an Eagles fan. He is not worth being your number one receiver. Not by a long shot.

[bluelang]

A couple of points to make here, and then i'll leave it alone because it appears everyone else is pretty content with the mediocrity of our passing attack.

Firstly, Miller and Cooley play totally different positions. I don't think i need to lecture a Redskins fan about the difference between an Hback and a TE but it is significant. As significant as the difference between TE and WR. I'm voting for Heath Miller instead of Brian Koslowski. i like Cooley but he's no longer a well-kept secret. Everyone knows he's Ramsey's only redzone target...could mike Sellers have been any more open on the Cooley TD pass last Friday?

Mike Williams = spilled milk. I'll agree to that. but my point about the WRs is still valid. Does anyone get excited when they see a pass being thrown to james Thrash. if you do, then don't let me spoil your fun. And hold onto those Jenny McCarthy swimsuit videos as long as you can.

Lastly, the Redskins are not following a Ravens model. How could you think that? They don't even have a pass rushing end. Do you really think joe Gibbs, a prideful HOF coach is going to sit back and say 'well our offense isn't good enough so we'll just rely on Gregg and the defense?" Why did the Redskins draft Campbell? It's not because they wanted to strengthen the defense. Same goes for the addition of Moss and Patten. This team wants to throw the ball. Gibbs wants to throw the ball. And i think McCants was a huge disappointment (especially after they made him a lucrative salary increase last year) leaving them with little size down the middle of the field. Those quick outs are not fooling anyone. You have to be able to go down the middle of the field the way Patten did once and Moss (unsucessfully). It opens up the edge running game, which is what Portis is suited to.

Almost none of the top QBs are doing it without a TE. The Redskins are way behind in this area.

don't mean to be following you around yelling at you, but your points are very opinionated and negative.

no one is content with anything - it's the preseason. i think most of us will be content, for this year, with getting to the playoffs and being respectable. you can't possibly have a suggestion, at this point, for doing anything about the receivers until next year, right?

interesting point about pass rushing DL, but i think we do have one - and his name is Lavar Arrington. he looked explosive when he was moving Friday night.

actually.. i would agree that i wish we had gotten mike williams, except that i love drafting DB's.

[CHUBAKAH]

i think many reporters will be eating some crow about stating the skins receiver corp is less talented than last years group.

Don't forget all the fans on this board who also thought the WR's last year were better.

Coles was weak, Gardner was even worse. The jury is still out on Moss, and Patten in our system, but so far i'm thinking we got the better end of that deal. :2cents: