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It still amazes me...


SonnyJ

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that Cowboy fans chalk up their rookies and highly inexperienced players as given assets. Williams, Bryant, Gurode, and Carter (on this list because of little playing time and a completely new offensive system)/Hutchinson (I'd wager this is who the Cowboys brass is banking on) seem to be automatically chalked up as team upgrades - even though statistically speaking, at least two will be busts.

But the kicker is this - in all sincerity, they will claim that the Redskins will struggle this year because Spurrier will need an adjustment period coming from the college ranks. Regardless of his excellent and lengthy track record, his past experience with pro ball, and the fact that he is a mature, wealthy adult, it is presumed that he will struggle to "adjust to the pro game" and other vague cliches.

If these Cowboy fans are going to anoint their unproven ballplayers as golden boys, then they have to concede that maybe Spurrier will have an immediate midas touch, too.

Or am I expecting too much in the way of intelligent thought from them?:rolleyes:

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Originally posted by SonnyJ

that Cowboy fans chalk up their rookies and highly inexperienced players as given assets. Williams, Bryant, Gurode, and Carter (on this list because of little playing time and a completely new offensive system)/Hutchinson (I'd wager this is who the Cowboys brass is banking on) seem to be automatically chalked up as team upgrades - even though statistically speaking, at least two will be busts.

But the kicker is this - in all sincerity, they will claim that the Redskins will struggle this year because Spurrier will need an adjustment period coming from the college ranks. Regardless of his excellent and lengthy track record, his past experience with pro ball, and the fact that he is a mature, wealthy adult, it is presumed that he will struggle to "adjust to the pro game" and other vague cliches.

If these Cowboy fans are going to anoint their unproven ballplayers as golden boys, then they have to concede that maybe Spurrier will have an immediate midas touch, too.

Or am I expecting too much in the way of intelligent thought from them?:rolleyes:

Well your post would carry much more weight if you didn't use blanket statements like "Cowboy Fans". Maybe some Cowboy fans get over zealous and hype rookies, but not all.

Find the few and raise your question with them.

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Sonny,

Please, don't you know that the Cowboys line is young and deep. They have one guy who was a beast in the NFLE and another who's lifted a lot of weights in the offseason if you don't believe me. Sure, we have a starting player from playoff teams, but, how much has he been lifting and what is playoff competition compared to NFLE?

Yeah, I think you expect too much from them sometimes :).

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I couldn't agree with you more, BUT.....

Disclaimer: REDSKIN FAN FROM BIRTH!!!

I would trade our first 3 picks for theirs. That's a scary thing they're building down in Dallas. Williams, Bryant, & Gurode, that's a nice trio of youngsters to build around. Add that to Hutchinson, who the Shins persued this offseason, a QB that would have been a first rounder. The future is bright in Dallas.

So let's buckle up the chinstraps, The Skins are on the way back to glory and Dallas is on the rise as well (I guess it's not that hard after 2 straight losing seasons). The Eagles are there and the Giants will surprise people this season. With realignment, getting rid of the redbirds, the NFC East is well on its way to returning to dominance. Every game will be tightly contested.

God I can't wait, isn't it time for the leaves to turn and the kids go back to school. This offseason sure has been painfully long.

Wahoowa!.....Hail!

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well, what the Cowboys did this year in the draft is finally make up for all the mistakes of the past 3 or 4 years. :)

they finished 5-11 and had high picks in each round. they used them to select solid prospects, with good physical talent.

but are we at a point where everyone in the East is so GM-challenged that act should be remarked upon?

TEAMS SHOULD BE DOING THIS!

Now, the Redskins in the past 3 or 4 years have done better overall than Dallas in the draft. Both because of better draft position owing to trades and to the selection of prospects with less baggage, Washington was able to accumulate a core including Bailey (#7), Arrington (#2), Samuels (#3) and Gardner (#15) in the first round and Jansen and Smoot in the second.

For Dallas, Roy Williams and Andre Gurode are a start in the right direction, but I don't think they have really made enough headway to match the Skins' set. :)

That's 3 pro bowlers in Bailey, Arrington and Samuels and two others in Jansen and Smoot that are clearly better than average performers.

Dallas is going to have to do some very good shopping over the next couple of drafts, even with Williams and Gurode maxing out their potential, for the Cowboys to talk about general equivalency.

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After several years of Jerry Jones' drafts, it's easy to understand why Cowboy fans are going a little nuts with what looks to be their best off-season in years.

We'll all see soon enough if it parlays into success on the field this season. :)

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my guess is the gaggle of defensive linemen 'hopefuls' that Dallas has including Noble, Myers, Ekuban, Ellis, Underwood, etc....are going to have a few disappointments as well as a couple of long-term finds in it.

Dallas fans may envision a 7 man rotation of quality players all contributing 40 tackles and 6 sacks each but I don't see it personally.

The linebacking corps, unless we see Hardy max out the potential he came into the NFL with, is not going to be a difference maker.

In the secondary the safeties could be a pair of the best around if Williams becomes the player he is supposed to, but the corners are undistinguished and will be exposed playing against the better offenses and coordinators in the league.

it is one thing to limit Tony Banks to 90 yards passing when the ball never makes its way downfield, quite another to face a team with a coach who is not afraid to test the defense and poke some holes along the way.

I think the toughest thing the Redskins opponents will have to contend with this season is the unpredictable nature of Spurrier himself.

Marty programmed what he was going to do before the game even started. By midseason, all of us could anticipate just about every call.

Before Marty, Norv had been running a rather conservative attack in 2000 as well due to the injury to Westbrook and the tail off in the play of Brad Johnson.

this will be the first time since 1999 that the Redskins will use the offense to really attack the defenses they face.

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Originally posted by #57goddawgit

I couldn't agree with you more, BUT.....

Disclaimer: REDSKIN FAN FROM BIRTH!!!

I would trade our first 3 picks for theirs. That's a scary thing they're building down in Dallas. Williams, Bryant, & Gurode, that's a nice trio of youngsters to build around. Add that to Hutchinson, who the Shins persued this offseason, a QB that would have been a first rounder. The future is bright in Dallas.

So let's buckle up the chinstraps, The Skins are on the way back to glory and Dallas is on the rise as well (I guess it's not that hard after 2 straight losing seasons). The Eagles are there and the Giants will surprise people this season. With realignment, getting rid of the redbirds, the NFC East is well on its way to returning to dominance. Every game will be tightly contested.

God I can't wait, isn't it time for the leaves to turn and the kids go back to school. This offseason sure has been painfully long.

Wahoowa!.....Hail!

Nice intelligent post.

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Originally posted by Brave

After several years of Jerry Jones' drafts, it's easy to understand why Cowboy fans are going a little nuts with what looks to be their best off-season in years.

We'll all see soon enough if it parlays into success on the field this season. :)

Very true.

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Now that the final words have been spoken, let this be a lesson to all, that it is better to be considered weaker by unfamiliarization, than to be well known, well stocked and still inept.

Steve Spurrier is not Norv Turner or Marty Schottenheimer.

Dave Campo, is still Dave Campo.

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"Well your post would carry much more weight if you didn't use blanket statements like "Cowboy Fans". Maybe some Cowboy fans get over zealous and hype rookies, but not all." - Qcard

Nice attempt to change the subject. And I'd assume you're one of the unbiased objective Cowboys fans? That's why you've been touting Gurode as an all-star, Bryant as a lock to burn Darrell Green, and Roy Williams as a pro-bowler even though he hasn't even played a down in the NFL?

And I also assume that's why you're claiming a certain second year QB who only started in 6 games last year as a definite breakout performer this year?

Get real, Qcard.

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Originally posted by OrangeSkin

"Well your post would carry much more weight if you didn't use blanket statements like "Cowboy Fans". Maybe some Cowboy fans get over zealous and hype rookies, but not all." - Qcard

Nice attempt to change the subject. And I'd assume you're one of the unbiased objective Cowboys fans? That's why you've been touting Gurode as an all-star, Bryant as a lock to burn Darrell Green, and Roy Williams as a pro-bowler even though he hasn't even played a down in the NFL?

And I also assume that's why you're claiming a certain second year QB who only started in 6 games last year as a definite breakout performer this year?

Get real, Qcard.

Liar,

I have generally taken a lets wait and see attitude.

Please show me any posts where I have made the above statements.

Tick Tick Tick.

Whats left of your little credibilty is on the line.

Liar Liar:jerkoff:

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In the secondary the safeties could be a pair of the best around if Williams becomes the player he is supposed to, but the corners are undistinguished and will be exposed playing against the better offenses and coordinators in the league.

And, somehow, I suspect somebody'll point that out to Steve. (Not that they'll need to).

(Now, if we can just stop Emmitt).

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Steve Spurrier is not Norv Turner or Marty Schottenheimer.
Dave Campo, is still Dave Campo.

Let's see, last time I looked, I think Campo had a few more NFL wins than Spurrier. He also has a few more SuperBowl rings.

And let's not forget JJ's record in his first two years with the Cowboys. This year is the make or break years for Camps, no doubt about it. But let's not count him out until he has a fighting chance with some decent talent. He did a great job of keeping the team together last year when theywere playing for nothing more than pride. I will be the first to admit he made some "in game" mistakes with 2 point conversins and on-side kicks. But hopefully the coordinators (namely Coslet) will help him out there.

As for Spurrier, the jury is still completely out. Only time will tell... will he be the next JJ or the next Dennis Erickson.

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This is funny.

Campo didn't have decent. Yet, offensively you haven't changed at all in the offseason and defensively you added three players to the No. 4 defense you are so proud of. Hmm. Something's not adding up. Obviously then, he still has no decent talent, but the three guys you added, since you kept all the rest of the non-decent talent you're talking about.

The jury is still out on Spurrier, who has never done anything but win as a head coach, but, Campo gets kudos for going 10-22, and recently 5-11 with largely the same cast? Sorry, but that doesn't really work. But, I'm happy to know you agree that Dallas had no decent talent, but, those three new guys give you a start, I suppose.

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Funny, back in '00 I didn't read too many posts suggesting "Let's just wait and see about Arrington before we get too excited about him".

Of course we're excited about Williams and expect a lot out of him. And when we get steals in Gurode and Bryant, we are going to likewise have similar expectations.

Part of this also goes to them showing a lot early on. Unlike Carter last year, when early reports were the "wobbly" passes, our top 3 or 4 picks this year are looking stellar.

Gurode has already practically locked up a starting spot. Bryant already runs the best routes on the team and has been said to have not dropped a pass yet. And Williams has looked good in coverage drills.

As for Hutchinson goes, there is excitement, but it's very reserved at this point. The guy hasn't played the game in 4.5 years, and before the layoff, had only played 2 years of collegiate ball. There is potential, but who knows how long -- if ever -- it will take to develop it.

If anything, there is a bit of hatred thrown Hutch's direction by a large part of the fanbase because the media is already trying to build him up as something special and create a QB controversy. There have already been comparisons to Troy Aikman which is simply ridiculous in my mind. While it's said he has shown flashes in camp, he even admits he's very inconsistent -- he'll have a great play displaying arm strength, followed by an INT right in the laps of a linebacker.

He's simply not ready to play the game yet, and none of us know when he might be ready.

But, yes, the general consensus amongst Dallas fans is that we had a great offseason :)

I think there's a legitimate chance that two seasons from now, anywhere from 6-9 players acquired this offseason will be starting. The list is: Hutchinson, Williams, Gurode, Bryant, Ross, Martin, Westbrook, Glover, and Hardy.

I think this offseason was a great springboard for us, and has transformed us from a team in turmoil and disarray (recall TSN's article last year "Who Killed America's Team?, in it they stated we'd never be back) to a team with a light at the end of a tunnel. Many even think we're a team on the rise, with possibly a chance for competing for a title in a year or two depending upon how the QB situation works itself out.

Though, while we think the future is very bright, most of us are realistic about this season. I think the general consensus is anywhere from 7-9 to 9-7, depending upon how the breaks for us go.

Though, I will add this: I think anything less than an 8-8 record (which isn't exactly asking for the world), and Campo will suddenly start really feeling the heat. It's difficult to blame a coach for a 5-win season when many said winning 5 games would be a miracle (again, see the "Who Killed America's Team" article), especially when he was working with $20+ million in dead cap space. However, no more excuses this year -- which is why I believe he's gotta reach .500.

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Good post Dale,

Echoes my feelings.

I also expect Roy Williams play this season to be just like Arrington's in his rookie and 2nd year - Flashes of greatness with a couple of bone head plays e.g late hits, pass interference and totally blowing assignments.

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Ok, Dale, so what you are saying is, largely, the decent talent you are counting on to prove Campo as a coach -- as Erwin suggests is required this year -- consists of three free agents (two of whom may not play to start the year) -- and a batch of rookies or rookie free agents?

Understood.

I was excited about Fred Smoot last year as well, who was more highly rated at his position than Bryant was at his, and we were thrilled about his selection if you'll recall. I do not think it's wrong to be pleased with rookie selections at all. But, you are counting on them to get your team to take the next step, and not in the years to come, but this year.

That's an awfully large difference between our excitement over Arrington and Samuels who were being added to the division winning football team and playoff performer. We'd have been just as excited with Arrington and Samuels if we were 5-11. We just wouldn't have been counting quite the number of victories from their addition that Dallas fans seem typically to be counting from their rookies.

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Oh, and please remember. You don't have to finish last when you are playing with $20 million plus of dead money. You could have finished second with that dead money. Just as Washington did last year with that much dead money too.

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Originally posted by Art

Ok, Dale, so what you are saying is, largely, the decent talent you are counting on to prove Campo as a coach -- as Erwin suggests is required this year -- consists of three free agents (two of whom may not play to start the year) -- and a batch of rookies or rookie free agents?

Understood.

I was excited about Fred Smoot last year as well, who was more highly rated at his position than Bryant was at his, and we were thrilled about his selection if you'll recall. I do not think it's wrong to be pleased with rookie selections at all. But, you are counting on them to get your team to take the next step, and not in the years to come, but this year.

That's an awfully large difference between our excitement over Arrington and Samuels who were being added to the division winning football team and playoff performer. We'd have been just as excited with Arrington and Samuels if we were 5-11. We just wouldn't have been counting quite the number of victories from their addition that Dallas fans seem typically to be counting from their rookies.

Dallas had the 3rd ranked rushing offense in the league last year while having a POOR passing attack, just like the skins. The Cowboys have now added one of the best OG/C from the draft to this line. The Cowboys added one of the best WR's in the draft to a WR corp that needed someone with size to go along with their speedsters. Another good move.

The Cowboys also added one of the better blocking FB's in the draft (Martin) at fullback to compete with our starter. The Cowboys also added Hutch at QB just in case carter doesn't work out as planned.

The Cowboys added Coslett as OC which should turn out to be a very good move considering his success in the past as a OC. Yes, he made a bad head coach, but he is a serious upgrade as OC. If you visited any of the cowboy boards last year you will know how disgusted everyone was with Reilly's play calling.

On to the defense, the Cowboys were ranked #4 last year. Now, they have added what most experts consider to be the top defensive player in the draft (Williams), they added one of the top DT's in the game in Glover (50 sacks in five seasons) and a pro bowl quality LB'er in Kevin Hardy. Not to mention the fact they brought in Westbrook and D. Ross (3rd round pick) at corner to compete with last years starters.

That is why the Cowboy fans are optimistic about our upcoming season. That and the fact that we play the Skins twice every season.:cheers:

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Smith,

No one is saying the Cowboys didn't make good moves. Bryant was a good pick. He wasn't rated as highly as Rod Gardner the year before, but, he appears to be an acceptable talent at a very good bargain pick. Gurode is a guy many Washington fans coveted. No question about it, he could be a winner.

Your fullback was a nice move. Your addition of Hutch was a nice move. And at the end of the day, you were a 5-11 team that is immediately expecting out of rookies enough value to be competitive immediately. It's an unreasonable expectation. If all of your rookies pan out to be very good pros, you still won't get the benefits of that skill right away.

Bruce Coslett is a two-time loser as a coach and has long since lost his reputation as being a keen offensive mind. Norv Turner has retained his reputation despite his struggles here. Coslett hasn't been considered an elite offensive mind of the same level for several years now. Likely due to leading largely average offenses as a head coach, where Norv tended to get a bit more potency out of his offenses, though also failing as a head coach.

I do not doubt for a moment that he is an upgrade over Reilly. I'm sure he will be. And every time he takes the field as the coordinator of the Cowboys against the Washington Redskins, he'll never be better than the second best offensive mind on the field.

The Cowboys have not added what most experts consider to be the top defensive player in the draft. Most experts had Peppers rated as the top defensive player in the draft and Williams went third among defensive players, though I do not doubt his potential skill.

You should, though, be optimistic about the coming season. You've absolutely done well in adding a good mix of potentially talented rookies and some solid, if questionable, vets. And if it all works out perfectly, you'll absolutely be a Super Bowl team. Obviously, if Gurode, Bryant, Hutch and Williams are Pro Bowlers, you'll be a tough out. Unfortunately, it's very unlikely you'll get that out of all of your rookies which is why optimism, while acceptable, will ultimately prove to be misplaced.

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Art, are the Skins not, in large part, counting on a head coach who has never coached a game in the NFL before? Is there no risk in that?

What team out there isn't relying on free agent additions, internal player development, and / or draft picks?

We acquired a lot of talent this offseason. Of course we expect that to ease the turnaround to a .500 team (which, again, is where I think we should be this season -- in that range).

But it's not as if we don't have any talent on the team.

Dat Nguyen was 2nd all-time in Cowboys history in single season tackles. Dexter Coakley is a Pro Bowl player. Darren Woodson played at a Pro Bowl level last year. Greg Ellis has consistently been a very consistent player both against the run and the pass -- we anticipate Glover's addition to make Ellis a more feared pass rusher as Glove, not Ellis, will be drawing the double teams. We expect Allen, along with Adams and Page, to lead our offensive line and the ground attack. We expect Emmitt to reach 1000 yards on the ground, eating up time on the clock and wearing down defenses. We look at Troy Hambrick as a nice counter-attack, and a possible running back of the future (completely unproven in that regard right now). We look at our speed receivers and hope Joey finally has his breakout season in Dallas. We look at our interior defensive line and see a nice "lunchpail' type in Noble at nosetackle, who at 320, should help free up Glover.

Of course, we all feel the key to the season is Quincy Carter.

A good season and I think a winning season is realistic. A poor season and we may be looking at 6 wins.

We look at him, and the flashes he showed last year and hope he'll continue to move in the right direction. Of course, it's been stated he has looked like a different player in mini-camps this year, looks like a much improved passer -- but his accuracy still needs to improve. We'll see on gameday if he's improved. We look at his character, his desire, and his work ethic and hope this is the guy that can at least be a Jay Fiedler type and lead us to a successful season.

But it's completely unknown as to how he'll play.

With the players we already have, we feel that with the additions, we are good enough to be the 2nd best team in the division with an 8-win season.

Are we relying on some unknowns? Sure.

Who isn't?

Is the Skins interior offensive line not an unknown? Is chemistry there not an issue? You have two new defensive lineman -- have they not proven themselves as a member of the Skins? Your QB situation is a complete unknown, is that not going to play a huge part in your success this season? Who's to say your two FA LBs -- seemingly bust-free players -- don't flop in the mold of a Kenny Holmes in NY last season? etc.

I'm not saying any of that's going to happen -- I think Trotter will be huge, for example. I'm just saying that you all are expecting new faces to be the difference on your team as well, starting at the head coaching position.

With all the roster turnover you had (again, OL, DL, QB, WR, LB), is it not unrealistic to think you take a step back from last season if Matthews struggles, your interior OL proves to be worse than last year, your DL is slightly inferior to a year ago, and Jacquez Green doesn't quite put up the performance that Westbrook did?

Even with questions on your team, does that not prevent many of you from believing you'll be the 2nd-best team in the division and perhaps a playoff bound team?

And you can't tell me you think these things only because Washington finished above Dallas in the standings a year ago. It's not as if these standings mirror one another from year to year. We constantly see teams shifting, with bad teams surprising, good teams falling, etc. Where you finished a year ago is never a tell-tale sign for how you'll fare in the future.

Again, I'm just stating that I think there are a lot of teams pointing to offseason pickups as the reason for hope. Especially when last year's Super Bowl winners were 5-11 the year before -- it's not as if it's unchartered territory to see a team go from 5-11 to 8-8 or 9-7 the following year.

And, while I listed all of the "?"s above about the Skins, I'm not suggesting I think everything is going to work out against you or that Dallas is without "?"s. And please don't bombard me with comments saying I'm biased because I am painting a negative picture of your team -- I'm not suggesting things won't work out. I'm just stating that, like with us, these things haven't been proven on the field. But does that prevent a fan-base from getting excited?

We have several rookies we're counting on. An unproven QB. WRs that must prove their worth. Two FA additions with a history of injuries. etc.

Of course we have "?"s. Even a team like the Packers, whom many expect big things from, are relying on a rookie in Javon Green, a 2nd year player who did squat last year in Ferguson, and monumental headcase in Terry Glenn to carry their passing game. Is that a bullet-proof scheme?

No one is suggesting we're a lock to do anything. But I think, generally, we do believe that it's not gonna be hard to improve upon consecutive 5-11 seasons.

Especially when last year we lost 7 games by 7 points or less.

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You "Cowboy fans" are missing the original intent of my post.

You "Cowboy fans" are banking on a positive impact from your rookies/almost rookies (QC) as a reason for a substantial improvement in your team's on-field performance and record.

Yet you poo-poo the positive impact from an offensive wizard who is now a rookie NFL coach. You have to concede that Spurrier's track record far exceeds any of the rookie players on the Cowboys. You should agree that good coaching (i.e., teaching, playcalling, play design, motivation) can make a huge difference (whole being greater than the sum of the parts).

The Redskins, especially offensively, did not have good coaching last year. Yet, the team was still able to achieve an 8-8 record, despite 2 losses to a certain abysmal team.

Somehow, though, in "Cowboys fans" eyes, the potential upgrade in offensive coaching for the Redskins (not to mention FA additions, Lewis, and possibly the rookies, too) is a big question mark, yet the addition/maturation of rookies/youngsters on your team will push "your team" up at least 2-4 games in record.

If you want "us" to take you "Cowboy fans" seriously, cut the double standard. Don't crow about your rookies and then say that, while ultimately expecting him to do well, Spurrier will have a tough time adjusting. Spurrier has earned far more stripes than any of your rookies.

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Originally posted by Art

And at the end of the day, you were a 5-11 team that is immediately expecting out of rookies enough value to be competitive immediately. It's an unreasonable expectation. If all of your rookies pan out to be very good pros, you still won't get the benefits of that skill right away.

Art, so it's unrealistic to think that with Glover on the defensive line, Ekuban back from injury (missed 15.5 games last year), even a mildly improved Quincy Carter, and with Roy Williams in the secondary -- even if he's just a notch or two better than Teague as a rookie -- it's unreasonable to think we win a few more games than last year?

Especially when considering we lost by 7 points or less 7 times last year?

It's not an "achievement" to go 8-8 this year. I hardly think it's unreasonable to suggest we win several more games than last year based on the additions we made. As you said, we won't truly benefit from these additions until a few years from now -- which is why most of us are excited about the future moreso than we are just about the year 2002.

But that doesn't mean we don't anticipate some movement in the right direction this year in the W-L column.

Just out of curiousity, what sort of season are you anticipating from the Cowboys?

5-11 again? 6-10? 7-9? 8-8?

I ask just because I'd like to know just how far off we are in our predictions. I estimate, as I mentioned previously, anywhere from 7-9 to 9-7, with 8-8 being the most reasonable and realistic.

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Originally posted by SonnyJ

You "Cowboy fans" are missing the original intent of my post.

You "Cowboy fans" are banking on a positive impact from your rookies/almost rookies (QC) as a reason for a substantial improvement in your team's on-field performance and record.

Yet you poo-poo the positive impact from an offensive wizard who is now a rookie NFL coach. You have to concede that Spurrier's track record far exceeds any of the rookie players on the Cowboys. You should agree that good coaching (i.e., teaching, playcalling, play design, motivation) can make a huge difference (whole being greater than the sum of the parts).

The Redskins, especially offensively, did not have good coaching last year. Yet, the team was still able to achieve an 8-8 record, despite 2 losses to a certain abysmal team.

Somehow, though, in "Cowboys fans" eyes, the potential upgrade in offensive coaching for the Redskins (not to mention FA additions, Lewis, and possibly the rookies, too) is a big question mark, yet the addition/maturation of rookies/youngsters on your team will push "your team" up at least 2-4 games in record.

If you want "us" to take you "Cowboy fans" seriously, cut the double standard. Don't crow about your rookies and then say that, while ultimately expecting him to do well, Spurrier will have a tough time adjusting. Spurrier has earned far more stripes than any of your rookies.

I have no problem admitting that SS is a genius when it comes to calling and designing offensive plays. I think given the right situation, you could he his offensive system flourish. I just don't think the Skins are the right situation for many reasons, mainly because of their question marks at OL, WR and QB.

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