oraphus

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I hope this works for him, IMO their backup is better than him. 

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Hope is he goes down early and often playing Wash in 22

4 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

 

If he does not work out and they cut him at the start of the next league year, he does not get 28 M. That is less then Wentz makes this year, my point remains valid.

 

I never argued he made more than Wentz.. he would still make 15mil for one year so Saints are on the hook for 15mil, not 4... even if tis spread over several years. 

3 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

4Mil is Winston's cost to the saints cap this year. If he stinks and they cut him, he will never see large chuncks of the money in his contract. He does not truly have 21M in G money, I believe a lot of it is incentive based, and he can't reach those if he is cut.

 

21 Mil is fully guaranteed if he is still on the team at the beginning of 23.. so Saints are most likely paying out the full 28mil even if its spread over 5y like Voice_of_reason mentioned above. 

• $15.2M guaranteed at signing (signing bonus + 2022 salary)
• $5.8M of 2023 salary fully guarantees on the 3rd league day of 2023 (injury guaranteed at signing)

11 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

They are both players hanging onto starting spots by a thread. They both have positives and negatives. Never said Winston was a perfect prospect, or even a better prospect, but Winston at 4M plus a bunch of impact players is a lot better than Wentz at 28M.

 

Why do you keep sayin Winston is 4mil? Saints signed Winston to a 28mil 2y contract ( so i was wrong, they actually have him for 2y w 21mil guaranteed. https://www.nfl.com/news/jameis-winston-saints-re-sign-qb-to-two-year-28m-deal#:~:text=The New Orleans Saints are,million signing bonus%2C per Rapoport.

So if he stinks it up this year and gets cut, the Saints are still on the hook for 21mil. So if at the end of the year, they both suck and get cut its 21 vs 28mil ... ill take Wentz's upside for additional 7mil and two 3rd pick all day! 

3 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

I don't think he needs to when he costs 4Mil and allows you to build a better team around him. The team itself would be better suited to provide your QB w/ every opportunity to succeed. If I'm not getting a bonafide franchise QB day 1, I don't need to spend 28M to get a guy w/ upside.

 

 

Who said he is turning into a star? The Saints paid a reasonable price for his services. Dude is a lottery ticket w/ upside, just like Wentz. They are both gonna have to prove it to remain starters in the NFL. Only difference is one guy costs a heck of a lot more for someone in the same position.

This is an apples to oranges comparison and off on so many levels.. and I like Winston by the way.

1. Winston was never coming here.. no way he chooses Skins over saints.. maybe if Wash way overpaid for him to the tune of 20+mil. Besides the fact that he is still injured and might not be ready for the start of the season.

2. While Wentz has shown the ability to play like a top 5 qb for extended time, Winston never has. His upside is Kirk Kousins and we all know where that gets you.

3. Even after paying Wentz 28mil this year, Wash has plenty of cap space to get whomever they want. FO saying they dont have the money to make moves is BS. It sounds like they are mostly content with the roster and felt QB was the biggest missing link. FAs out there were not worth the contracts they were getting or in house players were good enough to replace departing ones.

4. If all stars align and Winston plays lights out as well as stays healthy in 22, he will demand top QB money in 23 to the tune of 35-40mil annual range so Saints are most likely looking at a one year rental. He!!, even if he plays just ok (top 20 qb) he will ask and get 30+mil per y; while Wash has control of Wentz for 3 years at roughly 28mil per y. So even if the two have similar perf, we will win with Wentz deal over 3y. Giving up 2nd and 3rd picks sucks, but worth the risk.

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

The thing about Wentz is for a change its not a tread water type of move.  It's high risk, high reward.  If you are swinging for a QB, I think that's what you got to do in today's NFL.  The reason why I got a special beef with PFF and Sheehan on the Wentz stuff is they both love selling going for high risk-high reward swings at the spot.  That's exactly what they are doing here.  Maybe Wentz is exactly what his critics say he is which is he makes bad decisions, is wildly inconsistent, isn't clutch and a bad leader.  Do I think they are right on most of this?  Nope.  But I am not ruling it out either.  It's possible he sucks here and the media thumbs its nose at the team and says I told you so.  But its also possible that this happens.  Wentz learns to improve his decision making, settles down in the clutch and uses his strong arm and mobility to have a big time season and revives his career.  

 

I like Mariota more than most.  The dude Barnwell in the ESPN article I posted said we should have signed him instead.  But I don't see Mariota as having high upside if he regains his form.  I think he's at best 18-22 type.  But as for Wentz if he rediscovers, he has top 10 talent.  It's a hard swing at the fences.  These deals we've made for 34 year old QBs, mostly who were on the decline and were not top 10 QBs arguably even in their prime -- those deals were celebrated at the time.  And its wild to me that playing it safe and treading water is that much more celebrated than swinging for the fences.

  

Wentz is definitely a swing for the fences move at a reasonable cost and while waiting for QB options to open up might have been a more prudent move in hindsight, Mariota is surely not the answer. The biggest issue with him has always been staying on the field, the guy is a walking injury and Atl will find this out quickly this year.. which might have been the move all along, sort of a " we're tanking without admitting we're tanking the year for a high qb pick next year"

15 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

 

That said, I DO think Jack came into the year with a BAD PLAN in the secondary, because they switched up too much of what was working.  They kicked Fuller inside and that screwed with him, they benched Kurl for no particularly good reason, played Collins way more than they should have, and asked WJIII to play differently than he had in the past.  That was from the get-go, not even after they figured out the DL was struggling.

 

I generally support them but my God, I think Jack had a bad start to the year.  

 I mean a coaches job is to analyze talent and get the right players as well as put those players in to the right position to succeed.  D staff missed on all of those... thats what i call incompetence.

1. They played Collins as a safety even though everyone and their mother knew he cant cover a 3rd grader. in fact previous coaching staff learned just that, yet they thought things changed?

2. they cant get much production out of D line with four 1st rd picks.

3. they kept Kurl off the field 

4. They wasted a 1st rd pick on LB that cant play MLB snd should have been drafted in the 3rd

I was hoping they would get some new D coaches this season... but there weren't any ex-Carolina d coaches available (sarcasm)

5 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

This is what burns me up about the way they used WJ3 early in the year. He is a press corner. He has always been a press corner. So what does our coaching staff do? Sign him and stick him in zone. It made absolutely no sense at all. 

while our coaching staff often shows inaptitude .. in this particular case they planed to play man and thats the reason they got jackson... only to realize that our "vaunted" D line and LBs could get zero pressure and our avg secondary was getting smoked, so they had to switch to zone... and then continued to get smoked 

The team overpaid for Fuller originally, but can get out of the contract this year with most of the guarantees paid out and a dead cap of 6mil this year. Bradbery is definitely a better zone corner. 

jackson is signed for 2 more years and we're pretty much stuck with him due to cap hit being too big. 

But in 23 Washington will definitely need to revamp their CBs if none of the young guys step up...  if they could flip Bradberry for Fuller, its a win.

15 hours ago, zCommander said:

 

You can talk about Taylor in this thread. The thread creator has a thing about Taylor and that he is not a NFL caliber QB because of his arm strength. The ironic thing is many in media have said Wentz is comparable to Taylor except for arm strength. 

 

Lol... Taylor with arm strength is Russel Wilson... and we all know how much the team wanted Russel.

Can Gibson play Buffalo Nickel? 

35 minutes ago, mhd24 said:

 

 

I'm happy the Giants took Neal over Ekwonu & Cross (could have any of them at 5).  KT going there sucks, but maybe he flames out.  

 

Looks like Dean will be out for the year according to Lombardi.  He said he's got a pec issue and we know unfortunately, those are season enders (Okapo).  Philly's achilles heal is the CB position.  They didn't add anything to it.  Slay is aging (over 30).  When corners age, the falloff is drastic.  

Dean said he was cleared by multiple drs.... i guess time will tell but they might have gotten themselves a steal

4 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

In fairness to Ron, I don't think he's out of his mind in believing that respectable QB play changes a lot for this team.  This team has shown the ability to play well even with a QB that had no ability to stretch the field at all.  If you look at the way the season ended, even beyond the injuries, it was obvious that we had absolutely no answers on offense at the QB position as defenses adjusted to us.  

 

He's hoping to get the best out of a guy who has shown the ability to do it before.  Doesn't mean it's going to happen, but we know it's in there somewhere - which is more than can be said for any other option we had at our disposal.  He's not crazy for thinking Wentz could have some gas left in the tank and could be a big difference maker for us.  I highly doubt Ron is sitting around crossing his fingers for .500 seasons so he can keep his job.  You can disagree with his strategy to get there, but it's insulting to suggest that his goal is to simply be better than mediocre.

 

 

If Skins get even an 80% of the 2017 Wentz version, we will get top 10qb play in the NFL. Thats the hope... although reality could work out starkly different. I believe the skill and ability is there.. but mentally he is somewhat broken. Riverra is banking on fixing the mental part.. thats a tough sell.

If Hamilton is there and we cant trade down... i am leaning on taking him. This team historically gets killed by TEs because no one at LB or in the secondary can cover a TE worth a damn. It would be nice to have this kid take the other teams TE out of the game. 

truth is chances of us trading back are pretty slim... this draft has been touted as deep but not very top talent heavy. It seems like most teams is the top 12 would love to trade back so our opportunity will be very limited. My hope is that some really good players fall due to a run on DEs, O lineman and QBs. Just make the pic and dont overthink it.

48 minutes ago, Conn said:

There is no scenario where Samuel is getting anywhere close to 30% of RB touches or snaps, so your numbers are super off. He MIGHT get 1-2 carries and end-arounds per game, and line up there further in some obvious passing situations. But those numbers are way off, even if you could guarantee his health. 

I disagree.. he was brought in as hybrid rb/wr. (Mini Debo Samuels) he will most certainly be getting touches out of the backfield, whether its a pitch, handoff or a short pass. You dont pay a guy 10mil per year to get the ball 3-4 times a game.

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Take them from Gibson.

 

 

Unless the plan is to replace Gibson, which is doesn't sound like it is... with Wentz hopefully chucking the ball down field the underneath run game should open up which could poise Gibson for a big season.

the issue is that if they draft a RB high, I don't see where he will get the snaps. 

The offence last year as supposed to be ~50/30/20   Gibson/ Samuel/ Mckisik rb spread

Samuel was never healthy so it ended up being 60/40 Gibson/ Mckisiik, Gibson got knicked up, Mckisik got hurt

With everyone hopefully healthy, there are no snaps left for a rookie RB and you're giving up too much value to draft a guy in the top 3rds and have hit sit for 'just in case' scenario

Unless you find a rb steal in the 5th+ .. there are plenty of decent vet RBs available after the draft that can be had for cheap as a backup

Very sad... my thoughts are with his family

They should absolutely draft a WR in the first if they feel he is a game change with top 10 potential. No matter what bs that you hear from the FO this team is bereft of O playmakers and you need at least 2 well above average WRs on a team.

Commies only have 3 stand out playmakers:

1. Terry

2. L. Thomas (coming off a major injury)

3. Mcckissick 

When you draft a wr high in the first the expectation is that he is one of the starters. It doesn't matter if he is a #1 or #2 since corners often dont travel with best WR.

You also need multiple Wrs due to injuries and contracts. For example getting another top flight WR gives the team leverage in case Terry is hard to sign. 

That's what a smart FO does.. trades top flight players when they can get value knowing that they will not be able to resign him long term. Dumb FO franchises players multiple times and then lets them walk for nothing when they get too expensive. 

2 minutes ago, KillBill26 said:

Last 2 years of Wentz are about 6 mil short due to roster bonuses, you just listed his base salary

yes, you're right.. missed that part. Well.. we always knew Washington would have to overpay to convince any decent qb to come here

2 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

That's another solid move by the colts

 

They turned Wentz into Ryan, who will save them several million with a lower cap hit and picked up an extra draft pick next year from a trade w/ us in the process. They handled that well.

 

 

ATL out here eating like 40Mil in Dead cap. Just brutal

 

 

In all things equal fantasy world (contract, injury, acquisition cost) I can see the argument for Wentz but that changes a bit when you factor in the real world stuff like Ryan costing both less to acquire and less against the cap. Hard to argue with those resource savings.

 

 

cap hit is almost identical... in fact higher for Ryan

Ryan 24, 28mil

Wentz 28, 21, 20mil

2 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

He was the best guy we could have realistically gotten. Ryan also has a no trade clause.

agreed.. no guarantee we could have gotten Ryan, but while older, Ryan is waaay  more accomplished. 

4 minutes ago, LightningBuggs said:

Ryan

tend to agree... Skins jumped the gun on Wentz... lets see how it pans out.