Palestine

[Yomar]

So Bush, after meeting extensively with Sharon, is about to announce the resurrection of Palestine as an independent state.

No doubt the violence will not stop, the Palestinian extremists are dedicated towards the goal of pushing Israel into the sea, even if they are a minority, like all extremist groups are.

This would be akin to war, now that the attack would cross international borders. That means the gloves come off. And I personally don't want to see that. Palestine is in no shape to become an independent state. Israel systematically destroyed the bureaucratic machinery that was the now impotent Palestinian Authority. The wall Israel is currently building will help protect the country if other Arab nations enter the fray. I am more nervous about the situation now then I have ever been. I am afraid that the region, and potentially the world, will be thrown into chaos, and I fear what sort of authoritarian order might come out of that chaos. I hope cooler heads prevail, but that may be too much to ask.

[Brave]

"I am afraid that the region, and potentially the world, will be thrown into chaos ..." - Yomar

I agree. This conflict seems destined to intensify and spread, especially if the US takes action against Iraq.

"... and I fear what sort of authoritarian order might come out of that chaos." - Yomar

Please elaborate. What type of "authoritarian order" do you fear? Not sure what you mean here.

Cooler heads won't prevail as long as civilians can't go to work, dinner or a night club without fear of being blown up.

[Art]

I am against the creation of even a provisional Palestinian state. I still don't understand why we all take it on faith that they have any claim to any land whatsoever since there's never been a Palestine or a Palestinian people prior to the Israelis creating them to bolster their claims against Syria who the land really belongs to.

But, you reap what you sow, and while the Arab world rejected the notion of Palestine in the 1940s, they are embracing it now and we are buying into it. Israel as a state has been repeatedly attacked and had horrible acts of terrorism committed against it, and in the protection of itself has continued to expand borders and limit the harm that can be done.

Giving anything to the Palestinian people without a complete cessation of the terrorism is simply capitulation to a terrorist that sets a bad precedent. Though, I'm not fearful for the region or the world to be honest. Eventually when the Arab and Muslim world tires of being killed by a superior army with the moral highground in these conflicts, they will start to try living peacefully with their neighbor. It'll be a long time coming for that.

[Kilmer17]

After watching Alan Keyes ****slap the terrorist ambassador last night a thought occured to me.

What if Sharon et al want a state of Palestine established so the next time one of allahs minions blows up a bus of innocents they can declare war on a nation.

Then they could simply take back the entire west bank and all of gaza.

I love Israels new policy. Every time the Palesterrorists send a homicide bomber in, they take more land.

It brings us (The US) obviously closer to a war that we would have to participate in, but one we will have to fight eventually anyway. US and the West vs the Islamic terrorist nations.

[Ignatius J.]

I beleive that the creation of a palestinian state is not a capitulation to the terrorists. Our goal in the middle east is fairly simple. It is commonly accepted now that stability breeds democracy and vice versa. We also beleive that the existence of democratic capitolist states in the region will lead to such things as cheap oil and the ability to build tall buildings without fear of their destruction. I beleive that the creation of a palestinian state serves this purpose.

The terrorists living in palestine do not want stability. They do not want peace. They want revenge and the destruction of israel. I think it is telling that the latest attack on israel has come on the eve of the announcement of bush's strategy to establish this provisional state. I think that the terrorists probably do not want that state to be established because the creation of such a state sets us on a road to peace. I beleive this because the marshall plan worked. The people of palestine are living a terrible life right now. They live in fear of everyone and everything. The only U.S. they know is the one that the propaganda shows them. We need to shopw them that there is more to life than war.

Creating this state will be difficult, but there are people living in palestine right now who have no government and no representation in israel. They are not israelies and they deserve a government that is not run by terrorists or foreigners. Getting to that point will be difficult but i think this interim state, backed possibly by the U.N, sets us on the road to a real peace. This is not what the terrorists want. War breeds extremism, peace breeds moderation. We want the latter. I therefore beleive that the creation of the palestinian state is an attack on terrorism and not a surrender to it.

-DB

[Funkyalligator]

The wall that they are building is a great idea. It will set-up choke points that can be effectively monitored to prevent suicide bombers from entering into Israel proper. I'm sure the majority of Palestinian people want peace but they need to start killing these terrorists themselves because Israel isn't going to sit around and let them come into their nation and blow themselves up.

[Ryman of the North]

as a citizen of the world im elated because this means exactly what kilmer 17 said if the palestinians continue their terrorist activities the israelis have every right to move in and annexe more land.also though i agree with art this stes a terrible precedent in that if you conduct enough terrorist acts you can eventually wear down the U.S.

Nothing frustrates me more than people who defend the terrorists!

its easy to say someone is overreacting when the sh!ts not going down in your house!

its just too bad that america needed a horrific event like 9/11 to finally wake up and realise that israel is not the bad guy here!We as a people in north america had become complacent because it was THEIR problem.

the whole situation reminded me of WW2 when the isolationists almost convinced the american public not to go to war even though there was incontrovertable proof of the atrocities being commited.it took the sinking of a luxury liner in us and canadian waters to wake up the government and the people!

unfortunately for canada even after 9/11 we still havent woken up to the fact that terrorism is a GLOBAL issue not a local one and that the abba dabbas who perpatrate these vile acts are not troubled misunderstood rebels but scum who prey on the weak and the innocent.

[The Evil Genius]

I know this isnt a popular position...but I think its worth noting that the terrorism is coming from both sides (actually all 3 - the Arab nations, Israel, and the Christian based groups).

I just feel we need to recognize that before we wholeheartedly choose to go with the lesser of the evils.

[OrangeSkin]

I think its worth noting that the terrorism is coming from both sides (actually all 3 - the Arab nations, Israel, and the Christian based groups).

So what do you suggest? We nuke every single religious group on Earth? On 9/11, I didn't turn on my TV and say, "Oh no! The Dutch are attacking! They're trying to force their Christian values on us!" Get real...the arabs and muslims are the culprits here and they must be dealt with accordingly.

[Funkyalligator]

Not that I am denying that they perpetrating the acts but who are the Christian Terrorist groups that you are talking about? I know of the ones in Ireland but besides that, I haven't recently heard about any problems in Lebanon. I'd just like to know.

[Ryman of the North]

im with orange skin its not terrorism when its targeted at ACTUAL PROVEN criminals like the israelis do it (yes there is {and i hate this phrase}COLLATERAL damage.)the MUSLIMS attack buses of innocent people whose only crime was to be israeli!

[Yomar]

Originally posted by Brave

Please elaborate. What type of "authoritarian order" do you fear? Not sure what you mean here.

Well, it is admittedly a vague notion, and the most speculative part of a speculative post, and I realize that this is becoming a slippery slope, and I don't want to get too far ahead of myself. I'll just say that history shows that it is at times when a society is most desperate, most downtrodden, that authoritarian regimes most often rise up with promises of order and under the guise of hope.

[The Evil Genius]

the arabs and muslims are the culprits here and they must be dealt with accordingly.

Can we get any more bigoted here? What exactly does "dealing" with "the arabs and muslims" mean? Do we nuke or invade their countries - killing both the militant and the non extremists?

You guys want examples of terrorist christian organizations - and you have to look no further than the factions that exist in our country. Have we forgotten that Timothy McVeigh was a devout Christian? Or that the bombings on Planned Parenthood (and abortion related) clinics are done by Christians?

As a Christian, I am just saying that we shoulnd't call the proverbial kettle black. We are just as guilty, in this conflict as well as at home, as the Muslims are in the Middle East. All religions have taken whatever steps deemed necessary (terrorism in one form or another) at the time to get results (whether positive or negative).

There are black sheep in every family (Christian, Judaism, Muslim, etc.).

[Art]

Originally posted by The Evil Genius

I know this isnt a popular position...but I think its worth noting that the terrorism is coming from both sides (actually all 3 - the Arab nations, Israel, and the Christian based groups).

I just feel we need to recognize that before we wholeheartedly choose to go with the lesser of the evils.

EG, I love ya brother, but, QUIT spouting what you hear on CNN as if it is somehow meaningful. Terrorism is a defined word. There is no way to define Israeli action as terrorism. Terrorism is, simply defined, the unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

Israel is not a person or an organized group. It is a country. It is a nation-state. Military action taken by Israel can not, by definition, be terrorism. It can be aggressive. It can be over done. It can be any other limiting word you wish to use. But, it can never be terrorism. Conversely, what is happening to Israel can be defined as nothing BUT terrorism. Palestine is not a nation state. It is not a country. Even if it were, it is not the nation of Palestine committing acts of terrorism. It is people or organized groups attempting to coerce society and government for ideological or political reasons.

So, before we continue, let's agree to recognize that terrorism is coming from ONE side. Israeli activities are the acts of a nation-state. Whether you agree with them, or with the U.S. in Afghanistan, it is impossible to label the actions of a country as terrorism. Period. Even a well-intentioned liberal such as yourself can agree that there's no way to twist word meaning to suit this faulty stance.

[@DCGoldPants]

Here is a thought. Arafat doesn't want an "official" nation under the name of Palestine.

That would mean he would have to keep violence in check, help with medical care, schools, water, roads, food.

He doesn't want to do that. He wants to continue raping his own people Saddam style of their money and rights while they cheer for him. He pays the families of Homocide bombers with the help of Saddam which basically makes them government workers.

I'm not saying that Israel is right when they force themselves into the homes of people and innocents die at the hands of the Army. But, 50+ years ago when both sides were offered their own nations, one group was smart enough to accept it. The other keeps throwing it back into the face of the world.

I think in 60 years when all the oil is gone and those Arab nations are poor and trying to farm sand. Then Israel will be the only country standing on a basis of technology and commerical enterprise.

[Art]

EG, reply within....

"Can we get any more bigoted here?"

EG, it is not a bigoted stance to discuss terrorism in the Middle East, which is what this thread is about, without including domestic terrorism in this nation. We aren't referencing things that have happened in this nation in this thread. And, while I know the self-loathing that is breed into the typical left-leaning among us is impressive, it has NOTHING to do with what we're talking about here. Specifically you wrote that "three" sides are committing terrorism in THIS case and THIS case was one you qualified as Israel, the Arab nations and Christian groups. When pressed you've now decided to say that domestic terrorism in this nation is somehow relevant to the ongoing militant activities experienced in the region and indeed the world by Muslim and Arab extremists? Poor taste, despite your self-loathing.

"What exactly does "dealing" with "the arabs and muslims" mean? Do we nuke or invade their countries - killing both the militant and the non extremists?"

Sure. You root out the killers who are living among those who aren't. If those who weren't killers were active in stopping this activity there would be no extremists left. But, polls have shown that more than two thirds of folks in Palestine support the terror and thus harbor it. In rooting it out, you are likely to kill some of those who have nothing and want nothing to do with what's happening. That's a tragic byproduct of war. It's not the specific target, however, of what a nation-state attempts to do.

"You guys want examples of terrorist christian organizations - and you have to look no further than the factions that exist in our country. Have we forgotten that Timothy McVeigh was a devout Christian? Or that the bombings on Planned Parenthood (and abortion related) clinics are done by Christians?"

Specifically, we want examples as you alluded, of Christian Terrorism in the Middle East. The insanity of McVeigh or the nutso groups against Abortion in this country are as irrelevant to this discussion as the liberal Green mail box pipe bomber. There are going to be wack jobs in all societies and all makes of people can be such. But, holding up McVeigh as some confirmation that your self-loathing is right and McVeigh is somehow comparable to the numerous, repeated, ongoing and unyielding acts of barbarism committed by Arab and Muslim cretins is insulting.

"As a Christian, I am just saying that we shoulnd't call the proverbial kettle black. We are just as guilty, in this conflict as well as at home, as the Muslims are in the Middle East. All religions have taken whatever steps deemed necessary (terrorism in one form or another) at the time to get results (whether positive or negative). "

"We" are NOT just as guilty. In fact, WE are not at all guilty. Not all Catholics are guilty over the Priest scandal either. Others are. And in a culture like the Middle East where terrorism and acts of aggression against innocent people is the specific and stated goal, and where that belief is upheld as right and proper and families are REWARDED for the acts of their criminal members, then we are not at all guilty. No one paid McVeigh's family for his acts. No one is rewarding the pipe bomber's mother for his actions. Nation-states in the middle east and specific groups of arabs and muslims actually endorse these actions in the Middle East. We are not guilty. They are. Say it. Get over the self-loathing and just say what's true. WE aren't the guilty ones.

"There are black sheep in every family (Christian, Judaism, Muslim, etc.)."

Yeah, there are. And there are cultures that breed black sheep at far higher and more disturbing numbers than others. We do know which that is.

[The Evil Genius]

Art,

How in the hell am I a well intentioned liberal? I have gone on record as down the middle politically, I even voted for Dubya this past election.

Just so I can be clear on this - Israel cannot be guilty of terrorism, if a militant Jewish or Christian faction of Israel fills a van up with explosives and drives it into an Arab neighborhood and detonates the van then they arer not guilty of terrorism because they are a country, a nation-state, and according to you military action taken by Israel can not, by definition, be terrorism?

Please reread what I wrote - I never said the actions taken by the country of Israel. I said that all 3 parties, the Christians, the Jews, and the Arabs wee guilty of terrorism.

[The Evil Genius]

Art,

This is pretty weak. Since I go against the status quo here I am labeled a liberal?

You know, someone asked what Christians were involved in terrorism, besides the IRA and I elaborated. Sorry.

I tell ya' what - I am grown up enough to know when a dissenting opinion isnt wanted. I will let you guys get back to wanting to blow up anythign that isn't kosher in your world view.

[Art]

EG,

If a militant Jewish or Chrsitan faction based in Israel fills up a van with explosives, drives it into an Arab neighborhood and detonates it, that would be an act of terrorism. But, as that's not happening, we're left to answer your hypothetical with a hypothetical yes.

The only actions taken by Israel have been state-sponsored in a military sense. If Israeli citizens or groups within Israel were committing acts of terrorism, then they would be so doing, but, that would not mean Israel is, or could. Like with Pakistan and India. Pakistani militants are crossing the Kashmir border and committing acts of terrorism, but, that doesn't necessarily mean Pakistan is doing that.

You understand the difference I presume and you are merely being obtuse? For the record, Milosevic went to trial as a war criminal, not a terrorist and, in fact, he wasn't guilty of terrorism, but he was guilty of war crimes. If you feel Israel is likewise guilty, that's fine. But, these are two distinctly different issues.

And, I'm certainly proud of you for voting for Bush. But, being on the record as saying you are down the middle politically is well and good, but, your views on almost every issue you've spoken on define you as something else entirely. Doesn't mean you are a Democrat, but, you are a well-intentioned liberal .

[The Evil Genius]

I dunno buddy. I suspect that there has been a lot of bombings that have not been offically reported or linked in the Mid East, especially in the outlying areas of Jerusaleum.

Are you saying that only the Arabs have used bombings as a weapon?

[Funkyalligator]

"Guess this means that Slobodan Milosevic's use of genocide and terrorism wasnt really terrorism. Think he will be glad to hear of it." The Evil Genius

I actually don't believe that Slobo was accused of any terrorist acts he was accused of crimes against humanity. He actually could be accused of terrorism if his tacit support of the Black Tigers(a non-governmental militia) could be proven. The Black tigers carried out hundreds of murders while "working" for the Serbian government but they actually weren't a governmental entity so could not be considered part of the state and therefore could be accused of terrorism.

[The Evil Genius]

I think you are confusing my role as a Skeptic and as someone who likes to point out hyprocracy in government with that of being a "well intentioned liberal".

While my view of the enviroment and abortion isnt kosher with the Republican Party's line, my views on the Death Penalty and how the constitution is interpreted usually doesnt fit usually with the Dems. My views are represented by both parties. Thats why I dont vote the party line.

Peace.

[Art]

Originally posted by The Evil Genius

Art,

This is pretty weak. Since I go against the status quo here I am labeled a liberal?

You know, someone asked what Christians were involved in terrorism, besides the IRA and I elaborated. Sorry.

I tell ya' what - I am grown up enough to know when a dissenting opinion isnt wanted. I will let you guys get back to wanting to blow up anythign that isn't kosher in your world view.

EG,

Please don't get huffy about this. I, more than most, love and appreciate a good debate with a friend on the opposing side. But, simply put, you are a screaming liberal and that's great. It's not a condemnation. You should be proud of what you are. I'm a screaming conservative. Neither of us ought to pretend to be something other than we are. I want you to speak and encourage you to jump in.

Where I take exception to what you've done here is you are now participating in a thread specifically related to the Middle East and Palestine. You jumped in that three sides are committing terrorism and when pressed you detail your statement to mean that Arab states, Israel AND Timothy McVeigh are committing terrorism as if McVeigh as thing one to do with the Middle East. Context is the key here.

A random statement that Christians have and do commit acts of terrorism would be acceptable. The equivalence you've given those acts and those done by Muslims and Arabs the world over is where I take specific exception.

But, regardless. You are what you are. Saying you aren't doesn't mean you're not. .

[The Evil Genius]

Ok - Christians have and do commit acts of terrorism.

Is that better?

Anyways - I still disagree with you about the Mid East thing.

[Art]

Originally posted by The Evil Genius

I dunno buddy. I suspect that there has been a lot of bombings that have not been offically reported or linked in the Mid East, especially in the outlying areas of Jerusaleum.

Are you saying that only the Arabs have used bombings as a weapon?

I gotcha EG. Those Jews are clever and since they control all media in the world dozens of bombings they are utilizing are simply going unspoken by anyone. I knew the Jews ruled the world, but, I had sometimes forgotten to factor that in when I speak with someone else.

Good GOD man.

You should quit making statements based upon your supositions and you should start formulating opinion based upon the knowledge you possess. One side is targeting innocent people to topple a nation. The other side is a nation targeting the terrorists to topple the terrorists. I didn't realize you were confused by what you are seeing.