Question about Michael Schiavo

[@DCGoldPants]

Originally posted by Johnny Punani

That part about the "not feeling it" is not true. I was watching Fox News last night and they had a hospice Dr. on and they specifically asked if she would be in any kind of pain and he said he "didn't know for sure" and "no one knows for sure." Even with morphine she still might still be in pain.

he's not going to say for sure, because medical science might one day prove otherwise. But you take the best evidence, the best science and you go from there.

[SkinsChick36]

I think Michael has to have motives...if he is so in love with this other woman, had kids with her and all why didn't he take it to court and get a divorce (i've looked it up, in rare conditions you do not need the your spouses consent, the rare condition being she is brain dead ) How can he be in love with this other woman and yet he will not get a divorce?

[Predicto]

Originally posted by SkinsChick36

I think Michael has to have motives...if he is so in love with this other woman, had kids with her and all why didn't he take it to court and get a divorce (i've looked it up, in rare conditions you do not need the your spouses consent, the rare condition being she is brain dead ) How can he be in love with this other woman and yet he will not get a divorce?

Because he believes he owes it to his wife to fulfill her wishes?

[Johnny Punani2]

Originally posted by jbooma

That Dr works for us, and he was very good.

What they do is still give her the same medicine they would give someone else.

If you listen to Dr. Gomez he mentioned what they do is look for signs of pain, deep breathing, fast heart rate, etc.. and then they give medication for that.

If I hit you on your knee in the middle of the night it would move, and you wouldn't feel it, similar to here, people think that if they make a movement then that is a sign of pain, however the true signs of pain is what happens internally, and trust me they are closing watching the signs, to make sure IF she could and being 80% braid dead she can't, that she wouldn't feel anything in what we currently know.

He is correct we are not 100% sure, but from this happening many times in the past and dealing with patients that do feel it, we prepare for it that way.

Yeah, same guy.

[jbooma]

Originally posted by SkinsChick36

I think Michael has to have motives...if he is so in love with this other woman, had kids with her and all why didn't he take it to court and get a divorce (i've looked it up, in rare conditions you do not need the your spouses consent, the rare condition being she is brain dead ) How can he be in love with this other woman and yet he will not get a divorce?

Why?? A lot of couples like to say they are married even if technically they are not. That is very normal, especially for those that have been married before.

I don't think he cares about marrying this women officially, and maybe just maybe he feels it is wrong to do it while Terri is alive.

[jbooma]

Originally posted by Johnny Punani

Yeah, same guy.

He is going to be on PBS either tonight or this weekend, the man is brilliant and so nice.

I thought he handled Bill perfectly

[Guest Gichin13]

Originally posted by Johnny Punani

Well, after trying to find as much info as I can about the whole situation I am leaning more toward the husband's side of the issue. However, I still have a problem with the method of her passing. No one knows for sure if she is in any pain or not. Even with pain killing drugs involved. That is very troubling...

This method of letting people go is done every day. All over the country. In every town.

My bet is, Tarhog can attest directly to this from what he has posted about his profession.

(The rest is a more general rant, not directed at Johnny!)

Like it or not, we all go. I personally am in favor of a more humane approach than the slow drag out, but I can understand the complexity and tension over assisted suicide and where that line should be drawn.

What really should be easy is permitting an individual to have the dignity to make these decisions for themselves.

And for everyone looking for the "evil husband" motive and quoting a bunch of blatant lies, it really does not help anyone nor does it help your credibility.The husband has turned down multiple offers of seven figures to just go away. The trust fund has been publicly accounted for and is totally exhausted. There is no insurance. There is no pay day.

The position on abuse causing this is a total joke. They only even raised it as an argument after they lost the first trial. This has been rejected by all of her treating physicians, the trial court, appellate courts, the GAL, the independent doctors looking at the case. But we have to vilify anyone as long as we can score political points and advance an agenda.

Every independent medical expert that has actually reviewed the records (unlike the 17 so-called experts in the affidavits who never bothered to even review her medical records, relied on 4 minutes of video snips from a five hour long tape, and amazingly NEVER EVEN DISCUSSED HER CAT SCAN) has found she is in PVS, or cerebral cortex is absolutely eliminated, and she has no hope of recovery.

Have you seen her CAT scan? Instead of a cerebral cortex there is only ventricle. Necrotic tissue extends even into other areas of the brain. Her brain stem is active ... the lights are on, but there is decidedly no one home.

Oh, the nurses. Yes, the people who never bothered to note that a patient in persistent vegetative state spoke. One who was fired because the husband complained about her lack of attention to Ms. Schiavo. The one who says she can eat ice cream and jello (um, why the feeding tube? duh). Interesting some of these people crawl out of the woodwork so late under the media spotlight and only after the first trial's result.

Even the parents and their legal counsel conceded she was in PVS throughout the first trial and on appeal. It was only after they lost that they completely shifted gears, made up a new story, and propped up good Dr. Hammesfahr.

This so-called expert for the parents claims he is Nobel nominated. Only he was nominated by his congressman. Maybe I should have my wife nominate me for the Nobel Peace Prize so I can add it to my resume. Do you not see the credibility gap??

He has been censured by the Florida DOH for lying to patients and has to have another doctor following him around and reviewing his files. When he said his treatment would work, and has worked, he could not point to a single specific case file or case study in support of his position. You would think that might be important if you are testifying in court. If you really want to believe experts of this caliber rather than actual evidence, that is a fine statement of why we need courts deciding these types of issues and actually weighing evidence rather than using mob rule in the legislature to eliminate the individual's rights to control their medical treatment.

Hmm, should the court believe the guy with the fake Nobel certification, license complaints, and with no proof supporting his opinion? Yet that is exactly what some people latch on to. Logic and reason seem to be evaporating from our country's fabric on a daily basis.

The parents in the first trial indicated they would consent to amputation of all her arms and legs, and then still do open heart surgery and keep her alive. They testified under oath that if she woke up and told them she wanted the tube removed, they would ignore her wishes and keep her alive indefinitely. Tell me that is not sick. I understand their pain and their loss. But try and tell me that this is about their daughter's wishes and desires. After they testify in that fashion, how is anyone really supposed to believe they have their daughter's wishes in mind and are accurately testifying to them???

Let this poor poor woman retain just a tiny shred of her lost dignity and pass. Splashing this poor woman's absent shell on videos to raise money for causes and push a so-called "pro-life" agenda is really pretty sick. Calling people who look at this differently as part of a "culture of death" is ridiculous. No one wants this woman to die. What people on the other side of this issue react to is the need to respect the wishes of an individual regarding their, repeat THEIR, medical care. That is really respect for life, dignity, and the ultimate responsibility of a person for their own choices.

On a final note, better draft an iron clad living will. Better ensure you have your DNR fully executed. Make sure you lock down who is your agent for treatment decisions. I have, have you?

[Johnny Punani2]

Originally posted by jbooma

He is going to be on PBS either tonight or this weekend, the man is brilliant and so nice.

I thought he handled Bill perfectly

I didn't think there was much to be handled. lol

Bill wasn't his usual confrontational self. Sounded like he was on a fact finding mission.

Question related to this: Can morphine and other drugs that are used in pain management take all of the pain and discomfort away no matter what the cause? For example, would you have the same effectiveness as with a person who has bone cancer, lung cancer, or some other disease that is know to be very painfull?

[jbooma]

Originally posted by Johnny Punani

I didn't think there was much to be handled. lol

Bill wasn't his usual confrontational self. Sounded like he was on a fact finding mission.

Question related to this: Can morphine and other drugs that are used in pain management take all of the pain and discomfort away no matter what the cause? For example, would you have the same effectiveness as with a person who has bone cancer, lung cancer, or some other disease that is know to be very painfull?

It depends on the condition, it may not be morphine, but some other drug but we can take if not all then I would say 80 to 90% (i am not a doctor but work with doctors so can't say with 100% confidence), and make someones last days more easier to handle.

This is what a hospice does. We make sure you live your last couple of months, weeks, days, or whatever how you want and pain free as much as possible.

From the patients I have seen pass, I haven't heard or seen many that have suffered much.

Most of the suffering is the family not the patients.

A hospital is similar, if they take someone of a machine, they do provide medications to take away as much of the pain, so they can die somewhat normally.

[chomerics]

Originally posted by Gichin13

This method of letting people go is done every day. All over the country. In every town.

My bet is, Tarhog can attest directly to this from what he has posted about his profession.

(The rest is a more general rant, not directed at Johnny!)

Like it or not, we all go. I personally am in favor of a more humane approach than the slow drag out, but I can understand the complexity and tension over assisted suicide and where that line should be drawn.

What really should be easy is permitting an individual to have the dignity to make these decisions for themselves.

And for everyone looking for the "evil husband" motive and quoting a bunch of blatant lies, it really does not help anyone nor does it help your credibility.The husband has turned down multiple offers of seven figures to just go away. The trust fund has been publicly accounted for and is totally exhausted. There is no insurance. There is no pay day.

The position on abuse causing this is a total joke. They only even raised it as an argument after they lost the first trial. This has been rejected by all of her treating physicians, the trial court, appellate courts, the GAL, the independent doctors looking at the case. But we have to vilify anyone as long as we can score political points and advance an agenda.

Every independent medical expert that has actually reviewed the records (unlike the 17 so-called experts in the affidavits who never bothered to even review her medical records, relied on 4 minutes of video snips from a five hour long tape, and amazingly NEVER EVEN DISCUSSED HER CAT SCAN) has found she is in PVS, or cerebral cortex is absolutely eliminated, and she has no hope of recovery.

Have you seen her CAT scan? Instead of a cerebral cortex there is only ventricle. Necrotic tissue extends even into other areas of the brain. Her brain stem is active ... the lights are on, but there is decidedly no one home.

Oh, the nurses. Yes, the people who never bothered to note that a patient in persistent vegetative state spoke. One who was fired because the husband complained about her lack of attention to Ms. Schiavo. The one who says she can eat ice cream and jello (um, why the feeding tube? duh). Interesting some of these people crawl out of the woodwork so late under the media spotlight and only after the first trial's result.

Even the parents and their legal counsel conceded she was in PVS throughout the first trial and on appeal. It was only after they lost that they completely shifted gears, made up a new story, and propped up good Dr. Hammesfahr.

This so-called expert for the parents claims he is Nobel nominated. Only he was nominated by his congressman. Maybe I should have my wife nominate me for the Nobel Peace Prize so I can add it to my resume. Do you not see the credibility gap??

He has been censured by the Florida DOH for lying to patients and has to have another doctor following him around and reviewing his files. When he said his treatment would work, and has worked, he could not point to a single specific case file or case study in support of his position. You would think that might be important if you are testifying in court. If you really want to believe experts of this caliber rather than actual evidence, that is a fine statement of why we need courts deciding these types of issues and actually weighing evidence rather than using mob rule in the legislature to eliminate the individual's rights to control their medical treatment.

Hmm, should the court believe the guy with the fake Nobel certification, license complaints, and with no proof supporting his opinion? Yet that is exactly what some people latch on to. Logic and reason seem to be evaporating from our country's fabric on a daily basis.

The parents in the first trial indicated they would consent to amputation of all her arms and legs, and then still do open heart surgery and keep her alive. They testified under oath that if she woke up and told them she wanted the tube removed, they would ignore her wishes and keep her alive indefinitely. Tell me that is not sick. I understand their pain and their loss. But try and tell me that this is about their daughter's wishes and desires. After they testify in that fashion, how is anyone really supposed to believe they have their daughter's wishes in mind and are accurately testifying to them???

Let this poor poor woman retain just a tiny shred of her lost dignity and pass. Splashing this poor woman's absent shell on videos to raise money for causes and push a so-called "pro-life" agenda is really pretty sick. Calling people who look at this differently as part of a "culture of death" is ridiculous. No one wants this woman to die. What people on the other side of this issue react to is the need to respect the wishes of an individual regarding their, repeat THEIR, medical care. That is really respect for life, dignity, and the ultimate responsibility of a person for their own choices.

On a final note, better draft an iron clad living will. Better ensure you have your DNR fully executed. Make sure you lock down who is your agent for treatment decisions. I have, have you?

Incredible post man, you are completely spot on.

Some people just can't let go. I can understand that, but death is something everyone has to deal with. If her parents truly loved her they would let her go.

[footballhenry]

ALot of this is hearsay, i think we ALL realize this...and the things that I said earlier were from things I heard on TV, so its hard to post a link to television.....but my main point is, even if she doesnt feel pain, even if she is in a vegetative state (both of which CANT be proven) her family still wants to take care of her....WHY WONT MICHAEL LET THEM DO THIS??....i would LOVE for someone to give me a good answer for this.....

[footballhenry]

Originally posted by chomerics

Incredible post man, you are completely spot on.

Some people just can't let go. I can understand that, but death is something everyone has to deal with. If her parents truly loved her they would let her go.

thing is they have HOPE that she can and will turn around....and i have heard reports of her PROGRESSING through the years....its clear that they believe that she wants to be kept alive, and what bout that person saying she heard Terri say she wants to be alive?...course its impossible to prove but it makes you wonder....

[jbooma]

Originally posted by footballhenry

ALot of this is hearsay, i think we ALL realize this...and the things that I said earlier were from things I heard on TV, so its hard to post a link to television.....but my main point is, even if she doesnt feel pain, even if she is in a vegetative state (both of which CANT be proven) her family still wants to take care of her....WHY WONT MICHAEL LET THEM DO THIS??....i would LOVE for someone to give me a good answer for this.....

He won't let them because that wasn't her wishes.

The parents are in complete denial, and you can't grow back brain tissue. It has been proven, look at the cat scan.

Just because she makes movements doesn't mean anything.

They can prove if she feels pain by monitoring her for internal signs. If your body feels a pain, it will show it by rapid heartrate, sweat, heavy breating, etc... there are internal signs that show this.

[footballhenry]

Originally posted by jbooma

He won't let them because that wasn't her wishes.

The parents are in complete denial, and you can't grow back brain tissue. It has been proven, look at the cat scan.

Just because she makes movements doesn't mean anything.

They can prove if she feels pain by monitoring her for internal signs. If your body feels a pain, it will show it by rapid heartrate, sweat, heavy breating, etc... there are internal signs that show this.

Doctors have said otherwise...doctors this and that....doctors have DIFFERENT opinions...i grew up in a hospital...alright?......and its not MOVEMENTS that shes making....you can clearly see her face change when here mom is there, its as if shes trying to smile...she RESPONDS to objects and people...that is NOT vegetative....and as to Michael just following her wishes, how come in an earlier testimony he said that he didnt know what she would want?...again...noone has answered the simple question as to why he cant just let the family care for her.....its bc he doesnt WANT her alive for his own personal agenda (wife,kids, perhaps she gets better?).....

[footballhenry]

oh and what i meant by ive grown up in a hospital is that i was there ALOT...not for medical reasons but bc my mom worked there...and i just saw and learned alot.....dont want to me misleading.

[Tarhog]

Originally posted by chomerics

Nice input Tarhog.

I have a medical related question for either you or Blade, but is the fate she suffered similar to a stroke in terms of brain loss? I know she has lost her cerebral cortex, but is her condition analogous to a stroke in the cerebral cortex?

I also wanted to know what you guys thought of using vasodialators to enhance brain function.

You have to put it into perspective. A CVA or stroke can be mild or severe. Basically, a stroke is similar to a heart attack, except that with a stroke you have interrupted blood flow (and hence oxygen availability) to the brain. There are ischemic strokes (where the cerebral vessel is clogged or blocked) and hemorrhagic stroke (where a cerebral vessel bursts and bleeds into the surrounding tissues). Either way, you have reduced blood/02 flow to the brain. And as you know, the brain cells can't survive long without 2 things, oxygen, and glucose. Both of which are supplied by cerebral vessels. Deny them those 2 things, and they'll die quickly, within minutes.

With a stroke though, unless you occlude a carotid artery feeding an entire side of your brain, or have a massive bleed, the area of damage is relatively small. With an anoxic brain injury, there's typically nothing wrong with your 'plumbing', you either go into respiratory arrest or cardiac arrest for a prolonged period. Either way, your ENTIRE brain is without needed oxygen and glucose for an extended period. It can be devastating. In neurology, they have a saying 'Time IS brain'. If you don't get brain cells oxygen fast, they die, and they don't come back.

The reason why 'some' neuro injury patients make remarkable recoveries is because the living brain is a remarkable organ. If you have a massive stroke, its still 'possible' that your brain will rewire itself, find other routes and nerve pathways to accomplish tasks previously performed by the dead or damaged portion of your brain. I've seen patients who couldn't talk, couldn't walk, etc...make almost full recoveries. It happens. When you have a massive brain injury, this just doesn't happen. You generally don't have a small area of injured brain, you have huge areas of the brain tissue destroyed. I think this is the case with Ms. Shiavo. If I rip out the electrical lines in your new car, it won't start....but replace the wiring, its a different story. However, pour 5 gallons of gasoline over the engine and light a match. Let it burn for 5 minutes. Then try and repair it. Thats a pretty close analogy guys.

No good doctor is going to use the word 'never'. We are not gods, not even our most skilled physicians. But I'll say it again, medicine, like all true sciences, is based on experience and fact. And the fact is, dead brain doesn't resurrect itself.

Some are arguing we are 'playing God' by making the decision to stop providing nutrition to this patient. I think you can legitimately argue some would like us to play God by sustaining her current state of existence.

[jbooma]

Originally posted by footballhenry

Doctors have said otherwise...doctors this and that....doctors have DIFFERENT opinions...

yes and these doctors are not her main doctor, why don't we give more credit to the actual doctor that is taking care of her all the time

[chomerics]

Originally posted by footballhenry

thing is they have HOPE that she can and will turn around....and i have heard reports of her PROGRESSING through the years....its clear that they believe that she wants to be kept alive, and what bout that person saying she heard Terri say she wants to be alive?...course its impossible to prove but it makes you wonder....

Henry, there is no hope. I don't know of a better way to say this. Look at her cat scan, she has absolutely no brain. What you are reading and seeing on TV about her being able to recover is BS, it is a fabrication. Nobody wants to live a life like this, and I think it is time her parents let her daughter go. I can only give my support and to her husband, because if not for him, her parents would have kept her body alive indefinately. He is the true hero in this mess, and he should truly be applauded.

[JimboDaMan]

Originally posted by footballhenry

ALot of this is hearsay, i think we ALL realize this...and the things that I said earlier were from things I heard on TV, so its hard to post a link to television.....but my main point is, even if she doesnt feel pain, even if she is in a vegetative state (both of which CANT be proven) her family still wants to take care of her....WHY WONT MICHAEL LET THEM DO THIS??....i would LOVE for someone to give me a good answer for this.....

Because he is honoring her wishes.

Because her parents have expressly stated that if Terri's wish was to have the tube pulled, they would ignore her wishes.

Because her parents have stated they would, if necessary, have her limbs amputated one by one if she gets gangrene.

Because her parents seem to honestly believe Terri talks to them when nobody else sees this, no camera can catch this.

Because the independant guardian stated his belief that the parents will never under any circumstances believe their daughter is gone, no matter how many tests are conducted and how many doctors opinions tell them so.

Because if he walks away, he gives up control forever to these people who, while well-meaning, have lost touch with reality with respect to their daughter.

[Johnny Punani2]

Originally posted by JimboDaMan

Because he is honoring her wishes.

Because her parents have expressly stated that if Terri's wish was to have the tube pulled, they would ignore her wishes.

Because her parents have stated they would, if necessary, have her limbs amputated one by one if she gets gangrene.

Because her parents seem to honestly believe Terri talks to them when nobody else sees this, no camera can catch this.

Because the independant guardian stated his belief that the parents will never under any circumstances believe their daughter is gone, no matter how many tests are conducted and how many doctors opinions tell them so.

Because if he walks away, he gives up control forever to these people who, while well-meaning, have lost touch with reality with respect to their daughter.

I heard this last night as well. It doesn't bode well for the parent's case. It sounds like they are putting their fears of losing her over her well being.

[jbooma]

Henry you are also only 19 years old and so only know and understand your parents. You don't see why this is hard issue, because when you do get married most likely the things you share with your spouse you won't your parents.

If this happened to me I would hate my parents to do something like this to my wife.

Her parents need to back off and let it go. Remember the husband isn't on every TV show right now talking about concentration camps, it is sad, very sad.

[footballhenry]

Originally posted by JimboDaMan

Because he is honoring her wishes.

Because her parents have expressly stated that if Terri's wish was to have the tube pulled, they would ignore her wishes.

Because her parents have stated they would, if necessary, have her limbs amputated one by one if she gets gangrene.

Because her parents seem to honestly believe Terri talks to them when nobody else sees this, no camera can catch this.

Because the independant guardian stated his belief that the parents will never under any circumstances believe their daughter is gone, no matter how many tests are conducted and how many doctors opinions tell them so.

Because if he walks away, he gives up control forever to these people who, while well-meaning, have lost touch with reality with respect to their daughter.

hmm, completely understand what your saying BUT you do NOT starve someone to death....theres something just not right about it and i honestly think most of us think its not right to starve a human being, at least i hope so.....also AGAIN ill say that Michael TESTIFIED in the first trial that HE DIDNT KNOW WHAT TERRI'S WISHES WERE...now all of a sudden he does?....personal agenda people, wake up....

[jbooma]

Originally posted by footballhenry

hmm, completely understand what your saying BUT you do NOT starve someone to death....theres something just not right about it and i honestly think most of us think its not right to starve a human being, at least i hope so.....also AGAIN ill say that Michael TESTIFIED in the first trial that HE DIDNT KNOW WHAT TERRI'S WISHES WERE...now all of a sudden he does?....personal agenda people, wake up....

She isn't being starved to death like you think or hear people saying in the news.

[footballhenry]

Originally posted by jbooma

Henry you are also only 19 years old and so only know and understand your parents. You don't see why this is hard issue, because when you do get married most likely the things you share with your spouse you won't your parents.

If this happened to me I would hate my parents to do something like this to my wife.

Her parents need to back off and let it go. Remember the husband isn't on every TV show right now talking about concentration camps, it is sad, very sad.

of course people older then me are naturally wiser, i know this. BUT dont underestimate my intelligence bc of my age....i know more than most my age, thats for sure....i just think michael has different priorities from differing reports and witness accounts,etc....wats very sad here is the fact that a woman is starving to death and it CANT be proven if shes suffereing or not., as one doctor stated on FNC last nite that she was suffering he beleived............this is just a messy situation but if she does have to die than why can there be more humane ways?...

[Predicto]

Originally posted by footballhenry

Doctors have said otherwise...doctors this and that....doctors have DIFFERENT opinions...i grew up in a hospital...alright?......and its not MOVEMENTS that shes making....you can clearly see her face change when here mom is there, its as if shes trying to smile...she RESPONDS to objects and people...that is NOT vegetative....and as to Michael just following her wishes, how come in an earlier testimony he said that he didnt know what she would want?...again...noone has answered the simple question as to why he cant just let the family care for her.....its bc he doesnt WANT her alive for his own personal agenda (wife,kids, perhaps she gets better?).....

Just so you know, those tapes you are seeing on TV are heavily edited - by her parents. There are hours and hours of that tape where she does not respond to anything, or responds to nothing. Where she appears to smile at nothing. Where they wave a balloon in front of her over and over, and her eyes move all over the place except at the balloon. They took a few seconds where her random movements correspond with the balloon, or with her mother, and they cut it out of the tape, and that is what you are seeing.