Religion III - Friday the 13th

[inmate running the asylum]

The Fallacy of Earth & Man Being at the Center of the Universe

Enough of this off season drivel now that the NFL draft is over. :laugh:

During the lull before the season starts, Om demands something more cerebral from the thinking men of ExtremeSkins subscribers. Therefore, because Miss Cleo is on vacation and I can't get inside information from her on the Redskins or the universe -- are you paying attention Die Hard -- we find a renewed purpose for this new thread on religion and cosmology. And for those of you who were not used to using your brain in Sunday school -- something that organized religion encourages -- I've provided links to photographs so that you still do not have to think for yourself, but can look at some photographs of the universe from the Hubble telescope.

1-1 - The claim by organized religion that the earth and therefore man were at the center of the universe, was proven false by Galileo in 1616. But the Vatican did not admit it was wrong in persecuting him until 1991, almost 350 years later. Most of man’s religions have been based on man's alleged unique place in the universe and man’s special relationship with God. This fallacy dates back centuries to ancient times, when it was thought that the earth and therefore man was at the center of the universe, and that the sun and all the planets revolved around the earth.

1-2 - This perception of the world by man persisted for thousands of years, until a Polish astronomer, named Nicholas Copernicus [1473-1543], put forth his opposite theory of a heliocentric world, whereby the earth and all the planets revolved around the sun. The effect of this theory at the time was revolutionary, destroying the idea of the earth’s uniqueness, by suggesting that it acted like the other planets. For the first time in history it seriously brought into question the uniqueness of man on earth and seriously challenged the Church, which had taught that man had a special relationship with God.

1-3 - Then later Galileo Galilei [1564-1642], the Italian scientist, caused a furor when he asserted the truth of the theory put forward a hundred years earlier by Copernicus: that the earth was not the center of the universe, but revolves around the sun, and that it might not be the attention of its divine creator. What happened to Galileo? Well, Copernicus’ book, which taught the same doctrine as Galileo’s, was put on the Church’s Index of Forbidden Books on March 5, 1616. Four years later, permission was given to read it in a corrected version [i think the communist's call this type of [color=sky blue]mind control,[/color] revisionist history ], and on September 11, 1822, two hundred years later, the restriction was revoked entirely.

1-4 - In 1633 the Inquisition established by the Roman Catholics had condemned Galileo and forced him to choose between recanting his “heresy” or face torture and death. He naturally recanted. The Biblical verses found in the Bible, which the Church used to challenge the work of Galileo are provided below.

1-5 - :read: "Then spake Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon: and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day. And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the Lord harkened unto the voice of a man: for the Lord fought for Israel." [Joshua 10: 12-14 KJB]

1-6 - So the literal interpretation taught by organized religion for centuries, taken directly from the Old Testament of all three Bibles -- Jewish, Catholic and Protestant -- was that the sun and moon stood still in the heavens. Of course no such thing ever occurred or we wouldn't be here today. This is another example of a blatant falsehood in the Bible, promulgated by organized religion as being the truth. And how many innocent people were harmed, tortured, or executed, during the many years of the Inquisition, for expressing their disbelief in these or other verses? We shall never know. Hmm. I was taught in Sunday school that the Bible being the "word of God" was perfect. But I guess not. :doh:

Of course when SOME people became more educated over the centuries, organized religion had no choice but to change and abandon this literal interpretation of the verses. This request of Joshua to God of course, was for the purpose of exacting vengeance, as so many Biblical verses state -- never mind forgiveness -- to be exacted on the Amorites. For if the sun stood still and did not set, this created a longer day of sunlight in which to slaughter one's enemies.

1-7 - But getting back to Galileo, he did recant in order to save his life, but he remained under house arrest. It is also true that Pope Urban VIII was so personally incensed at Galileo that on the latter’s death, he exerted pressure to keep Galileo’s body from being buried with public solemnity in the family mausoleum in Santa Croce in Florence. In 1991, almost 350 years later, the Vatican finally admitted that Galileo had been correct and the Church had been wrong. What is not known, however, is that Galileo came to the right conclusions we now know, but he did so for the wrong reasons. Galileo did not have cogent arguments to back up his statements. He attempted to prove the earth’s motion from the presence of tides in its oceans and from the paths followed by sunspots -- neither of which is considered even today, as adequate proof. The evidence we now accept for the earth’s motion -- the Fourcault pendulum and the phenonmenon of stellar parallax -- were not discovered until the 19th century.

1-8 - :pope: Now the interesting thing about the persecution of Galileo by the Catholic Church, which taught that man and the earth were the center of the universe, is that this fallacy was commonly believed by many ancient people around the world. The ancient Ch’in dynasty under their first emperor, Shih Huang Ti, who built much of the Great Wall of China, was chosen to rule by the “mandate of heaven” and it was believed by the Chinese that China was the “center of the universe.” [Note: This is the same emperor who made the famous life-size army of 6,000 “terracotta warriors,” which Inmate saw years ago while "out on parole in Central, China." :halo: ] We also find this common belief was shared with the ancient Hebrews, as well as present day orthodox Jews, who also believe that Jerusalem is the center of the universe. Their belief is founded on the Biblical scriptures found in the Old Testament at [Zech. 8: 1-9] and [iI Chron. 7: 11-16].

1-9 - Clarence Darrow [1857-1938] was one of America’s outstanding criminal trial lawyers and an outspoken agnostic. Among his famous cases were the Leopold and Loeb murder trial and the Scope’s evolution trial in Tennessee. Arguing against theology’s "The Argument From Design," a theory of William Paley an English theologian [1743-1805], who also wrote "Natural Theology," Darrow countered with his own arguments in "The Delusion of Design and Purpose" in 1932. Paley’s idea that world order in the universe indicates a God or Creator, failed to explain evil, waste, pain and disease -- phenomena which are apparently purposeless.

1-10 - Darrow argued that QUOTE: “it is senseless to talk about order and system and design in the universe. There is nothing in the solar system that could be called design and order. It came from catastrophe of whose immensity no one could dream. What is the plan that gave Jupiter eight moons, while only one was lavished upon the earth, supposed to be the special masterpiece of the Almighty, and for whose benefit all the hosts of heavens were made?”

1-11 - “Every year, upon the surface of this globe, and in the seas that cover such a major portion of it, there are ten-thousand earthquakes, ranging from light shocks to the total destruction of large areas of territory and the annihilation of great numbers of human lives. Were these, too, designed? Then there is no such meaning as is usually applied to the word “design.” What “design” was there in the earthquake that destroyed Lisbon in 1755? The entire city was blotted out, together with the destruction of 30,000 to 40,000 human beings. This earthquake occurred on a Sunday which was also a saint’s day, and a large number of people were killed in a cathedral, which was also destroyed. And yet people talk about design and purpose and order and system as though they knew the meaning of the words.” END QUOTE [Note: only a few excerpts have been provided from Darrow's interesting work. It is suggested that any interested reader look up his complete essay at the library, which can be found in any number of books dealing with modern philosophy.]

1-12 - Of course many new discoveries in astronomy and science have taken place, which Clarence Darrow had no knowledge of, when he wrote his 1932 essay. More moons have been discovered revolving around Saturn and Jupiter, and in addition, comets were photographed smashing into Jupiter in 1995.

Photo below of comets crashing into Jupiter in July, 1995

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/sl9/image81.html

Below is also a photo of “The Mice” taken by the Hubble Telescope in April, 2002, showing two galaxies in mid-collision. The same thing will happen to the Milky Way Galaxy which our Earth is in, when it collides with the nearby Andromeda Galaxy in a few billion years. Of course our sun is supposed to burn up all its hydrogen and helium fuel in a few billion years also, so it is a tossup which will occur first.

http://msnbc.com/c/0/77/999/ssMain.asp?fmt=&0ss=N1b077999&sld=1&v=28

1-13 - Below is also a link to Meteor Crater in Arizona, showing the damage done when a small asteroid only 80 feet in diameter struck, some 20,000 to 50,000 years ago. Some scientists today claim that another larger asteroid is what killed off the dinosaurs. There have been five known major extinctions on earth that are known to have occurred, in which according to scientists, the vast majority of life became extinct. Scientists reporting in National Geographic estimate that 99% of all species of animals that have ever lived on earth, are now extinct. This of course, includes Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon man. And we must not forget specific races of people which man himself annihilated, such as the Phillistines and numerous indian tribes wiped out by the Spaniards and other "white men."

1-14 - So is extinction the fate that also awaits modern man, keeping in mind that still another large asteroid came close to earth in a near-miss in 1997? If this asteroid had collided with earth, according to scientists, all life would have been destroyed. And if God exists, how is it that he could allow 99% of his creations to become extinct, especially if he loves mankind as most holy books profess? So what was once perceived from a distance with the human eye and looked like design and purpose in the universe, 20th century astronomy with telescopes, now shows us to be chance randomness and chaos in the universe.

http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/images/meteorcrater.html

1- 15 - So even setting aside the fact that we are all living on the surface of a planet with a molten core, with its inherent dangers from volcanoes and earthquakes, if the Earth were not subject to errosion from weather; protected by an atmosphere; or three-fourths covered by water; we would also see an earth pockmarked as our moon is from thousands of meteorite bombardments. So instead of finding a universe of harmony, order, design and purpose, as organized religion has erroneously taught for centuries, all one has to do now is look at outer space photographs. Then one sees a universe full of bombarded and pockmarked moons and planets, and realizes that the universe is truly a dangerous, and for the most part unpredictable place of disorder and chaos.

[inmate running the asylum]

The last known mug-shot of Inmate when he was out on parole, and he escaped from the screws in Zimbabwe, Africa, by making a 40-story "leap of faith" off the Victoria Falls bridge. While I was dangling upside down below over the Zambesi River, which is full of crocodiles, someone up above on the bridge yelled down some words of encouragement. "Someone cut the rope..... he's a Yank!"

http://profiles.yahoo.com/sam_spade_private_investigator

http://www.incredible-adventures.com/migs/planes.html

[Romo]

Just a side note. Many books, Gaileo's included, that were put on the Church's index of Forbidden books became more popular after being put on the index. Reason being is that people wanted to know why the books were banned. Also the church had no way of controlling the printing presses so many copies of these books were in circulation regardless of them being banned.

[Terry]

Number of minds changed by Inmate's post: 0.

I'm just curious, did you put forward that post in order to proseletyze, to summarize, or just to generate discussion?

Because the problem always boils down to: yeah, religion has some glaring iconsistencies, but sooner or later it always boils down to the faith that underlines the dogma. And that faith is always unassailable.

You can try to parse the dogma and show it's inherent contradictions and it's obviously human (non-supernatural) sources, you can apply logic and rational thinking, and sooner or later you can poke holes in the initial lines of defense.

But religious thought is not as rigid as you might think, and can be surprisingly nimble and flexible when forced to defend itself. Rarely is this wall ever breached

And you can never surmount the final barrier that is faith.

So why bother?

[inmate running the asylum]

Terry,

Number of minds changed by Inmate's post: 0.

2-1 - Terry... I wouldnt be so c-ck sure if I were you. I am a former Baptist and my mind was changed by first reading what more intelligent people than I had found out about the Bible, and then conducting my own research to make up my mind. Afterall it was only a few hundred years ago that people took the entire Bible literally, and among other things were burning people alive at the stake as witches. We dont burn people alive as witches anymore, because some religious leader said we should do so, so how can you say that no one's mind has ever been changed about their faith or belief in the Bible?

2-2 - And if there is ONE falsehood in these so-called books of the "word of God" -- and there are actually many -- MANY but not ALL intelligent people might conclude that there are probably a number of OTHER FALSEHOODS also and consequently these books might be highly suspect. Personally one mistake or one falsehood is one to many for me, if as organized religion claims, God is perfect and he "inspired" the writing of the Bible. Think about it. Just because someone wrote something down in a book or scroll two or three thousand years ago, does not necessarily make it true.

2-3 - From my experience I have found that 75% of the people who say they believe in the Bible, have never even read them in there entirety. Talk about mind control! But this was also true of myself for most of my life, although I had always claimed to believe in the Bible, because I had been indoctrinated in it by my parents since childhood. Although personally I now think that belief in a religion is a superstition that is handed down by parents to children, from generation to generation, I could care less whether people believe in a god or not. That is as long as they dont harm or impose their beliefs on other people.

2-4 - As anyone who has followed my posts knows by now, my gripe is not against someone's belief in a god or even a specific religion. My biggest gripe is against these so-called "holy books" which have and still are being used to harm and kill so many innocent people, by other misguided people. And my second biggest gripe is against my former Protestant religions in the main, especially those televangelists who are ripping off the public for millions, by requesting donations of money to "save people's souls." Save the soul from what? Burning in hell? It has never even been proven that people have a soul.

2-5 - I put forward the post to generate discussion and debate and for the intellectual stimulation. Although you have added to it somewhat, you havent said much SPECIFICALLY to defend the Bible or your faith. And what is your religious faith I might ask?

2-6 - Being a former Christian, Im always amazed now when Christians claim how much faith THEY have in their religious beliefs. If they have such great faith that a heaven awaits them --where there is eternal bliss and perfection; no sickness and death; and a chance to be reunited with loved ones -- then why dont they commit suicide and speed up the process? For no life on earth can possibly equal life in heaven. Or so Ive been told. For you see, contrary to what religious leaders say publicly, there is no prohibition against suicide in the Bible or by the God portrayed in the Bibles. Although I don't advocate suicide, I will say one thing for the Arabs who are blowing themselves up with bombs. Although they too are misguided, some of them truly do have "faith" in THEIR RELIGION. For they cant all be crazy.

but sooner or later it always boils down to the faith that underlines the dogma. And that faith is always unassailable.

2-7 - Terry, it is interesting that you admit and state that "faith" is a dogma that is "unassailable." Hmm. So does that make it right and that these holy books should be followed and taken literally? The Nazis SS had faith in their dogma too. In fact Hitler's book "Mein Kampf" was second in sales to the Bible in pre-war Germany, which as you may recall was a Christian nation. In fact Hitler also said, that much could be learned from the Catholic Church.

2-8 - QUOTE: :read: "For how shall we fill people with BLIND FAITH in the correctness of a doctrine [National Socialism], if we ourselves spread uncertainty and doubt by constant change in its outward structure?........ Here, too, we can learn by the example of the Catholic Church. Though its doctrinal edifice, and in part quite superfluously, comes into collision with exact science and research, it is none the less unwilling to sacrifice so much as one little syllable of its DOGMA. It has recognized quite correctly that its power of resistance does not lie in its lesser or greater adaptation to the scientific findings of the moment, which in reality are always fluctuating, but rather in RIGIDLY HOLDING TO DOGMAS once established, for it is only such DOGMAS which lend to the whole body the character of the FAITH. And so today it stands more firmly than ever." END QUOTE - Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pg 459

So why bother?

2-9 - Well Terry, a few people who have not made up their minds on their religious beliefs, have stated here on Extremeskins that they have enjoyed reading these posts, both pro and con. Whereas I have no problem with your beliefs or opinion, I would have preferred that you posted something more SPECIFIC for myself and the other readers. I stick my neck out here constantly by taking on the Bibles.... as does Mardi and a few other people with their opposite view, but I always try to give the reader some references and something specific to bite on. You on the other hand, Terry, havent really said much of anything or addressed the issues in this post, other then you have FAITH in some religion, which I presume is Christianity.

2-10 - What do you think of the verses found in all three Bibles at Joshua 10:12-14, which is in a holy book that is supposed to be the "word of God.?" Are they true in your opinion? Do you honestly believe the sun and moon really stood still when Joshua lived, which really was not that long ago? Then why? If they are not true, then how do you explain this falsehood found in all three Bibles? We are all waiting, Terry........or for that manner, any believer in the Bible. :high:

[OrangeSkin]

Inmate: The answer to your question about suicide is a simple one. When God wants you, he'll take you. Bottom line. Suicide goes against God's will.

[inmate running the asylum]

Orangeskin,

Bottom line. Suicide goes against God's will.

Orangeskin,

3-1 - Nothing is simple anymore. Its interesting that you have this belief and Im not surprised by it, because I had always been told this by Baptists and other Christians myself. I know what the religious leaders say -- but dont let them do your thinking for you -- but when I researched it in the Bible myself, I discovered no proof in the Bible that suicide was forbidden by the Bible or god. In fact in a number of examples in the Bible, I found the opposite to be true, and God condoned suicide.

3-2 - If you believe that suicide is forbidden or against God's will, tell me the specific Biblical verses in any Bible, wherein God says he is against suicide or punishes man for committing it. :high:

3-3 - Glad to see your participation, Orangeskin. So what is your opinion of the verses found in Joshua 10: 12-14, and the specific questions I asked in the last post?

3-4 - P.S. - Athough I did not want to digress from the Joshua verses until some believer specifically addresses them, here is something else to think about, Orangeskin. One could probably argue that Jesus himself committed suicide. So how could suicide possibly be against God's will? :high:

3-5 - The definition of suicide in Webster's dictionary is: "the act of killing oneself intentionally." If you were to lie down on a railroad track intentionally, and be run over and killed by a train, the police would rule you committed suicide. They would rule you committed suicide, even though the train and not you did the actual killing. Why? Because you performed an act intentionally, that knowingly placed yourself in a position to be killed.

3-6 - So when Jesus KNEW IN ADVANCE -- according to the Bible -- that he was to die and be killed by the Romans IN THE FUTURE, and still did nothing to prevent it -- such as leaving the territory in advance -- one could argue that in effect Jesus committed suicide. :high:

[Terry]

Inmate:

2-5 - I put forward the post to generate discussion and debate and for the intellectual stimulation. Although you have added to it somewhat, you havent said much SPECIFICALLY to defend the Bible or your faith. And what is your religious faith I might ask?

Go back and read my post carefully, I think you'll find that I don't believe in much of organized religion or the bible in general, and the old testament in particular.

I won't defend the bible because I don't believe that the collection of myths and borrowed legends that form the Pentateuch, along with the overtly political and priest oriented books that follow have very little bearing on my life whatsoever.

I really don't have a need for the desert god of a levantine shepherd people, and his teachings and laws offer me very little.

I have little or no religious faith. I only have a vague hope

[panel]

Weather your religious or not, you must admit the most influential people EVER, have been Jesus Christ, Muhammad, and Buddha. All the religions that they are associated with are strikingly similar as well. They all consist of a Creator, a divined human messenger, and a mystical force. Their messages have made the world a better place. So who says that there is only one true faith, they seem to be the same, just told differently for those people in that part of the world to relate better with. Sure they are different, but not in any of their major points: Live a true and virtuous life, and you shall be rewarded.

(The Jewish faith differs only in that they believe that their human savor has not come yet.) Are these faiths true? Does there have to be a clear answer to that question? Can there have to be a clear answer to that question? Have they affected the world in a positive way? The answer to the last question is yes, you must decide what the answers are to the others yourself, if they have answers.

[Die Hard]

Originally posted by panel

All the religions that they are associated with are strikingly similar as well. They all consist of a Creator, a divined human messenger, and a mystical force.

You put a thousand monkeys in a room....

Imagine that.... human nature being something we all share. Fear, ignorance and vanity about sums it up. And there you have the impetus for religious principles.

[inmate running the asylum]

Terry,

I read your post but it was ambiguous to me. I couldnt tell what your beliefs were from your initial post. After being brought up as a Baptist for many years, I came to reject all religions as superstitious dogma, but only after researching the origin of the Bibles for 4 years. I cant believe I spent more time researching this, then I did obtaining my college education. But being an investigator by nature all my life -- even before I became a professional investigator -- I guess the age old question of God's possible existence and how we got here interested me.

I would still like to hear about how you arrived at your conclusions sometime or nonbelief as you state. I would imagine that as most of us were, you were still initially brought up in some religion by your parents, which you later rejected. :?:

------------------------------------------------------

panel,

Weather your religious or not, you must admit the most influential people EVER, have been Jesus Christ, Muhammad, and Buddha.

Their messages have made the world a better place.

4-1 - Not always Panel. Jesus says in the New Testament of Protestant Bibles that if you do not BELIEVE IN HIM, you will not be SAVED, but you will be damned. In the Catholic Bible he says condemned. What he means in both Bibles, however, is that you will burn eternally in the fires of hell. It doesnt matter how decent a person you were in this life, if you do not believe in him before you die, he offers no forgiveness whatsoever. And of course organized religion backed up his alleged statement in the New Testament, and murdered millions of innocent people who did not believe in him over the centuries, through the Inquisition, religious wars, crusades, etc.

4-2 - And what is really a b!tch about this alleged statement by Jesus -- for afterall he left no known writings himself -- is that we are supposed to take someone else's word for this statement attributed to him. For even the Vatican in their Catholic encyclopedia acknowledges, that the gospel writer Mark wrote his gospel somewhere around 70 A.D. That is over 50 years after Jesus was crucified! :doh: I couldnt tell you what President Bush said last week, let alone what someone said verbatim 50 years later! :laugh:

4-3 - :read: JESUS RED INK QUOTE IN THE BIBLE: "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." [Mark 16:15-16 - KJB]

[panel]

Inmate, verses 9-20 of Mark are controversial, most ancient authorities bring the book of Mark to an end after verse 8. And most Bibles with verses 9-20 printed in them, is side noted as being "doubtful". Other ancient authorities have this passage at the end of Mark, (which was found in several 7-9th century Greek manuscripts as well as in one Old Latin version)

"This age of lawlessness and unbelief is under Satan, who does not allow the truth and power of God to prevail over the unclean things dominated by the spirits [or, does not allow the unclean things dominated by the spirits to grasp the truth and power of God]. Therefore reveal your righteousness now.' They spoke to Christ. And Christ responded to them, "The limit of the years of Satan's power is completed, but other terrible things draw near. And for those who sinned I was handed over to death, that they might return to the truth and no longer sin, in order that they might inherit the spiritual and incorruptible heavenly glory of righteousness"

This quote does not say specifically that you must believe in Jesus or be a Christian per say to move on into heaven. I trust that god would not exclude 70% of the worlds population based of what religious branch they were raised with.

As for the crusades and the inquisition, religion was used as an excuse to fight and kill, and still have these actions justified. The crusades are claimed a battle for holy land, which just happened to contain some of the most amounts of gold known at the time. Most soldiers were happy to go, since they knew that they would return with their hands full. And the inquisition was an excuse to kill those who challenged or threaten the power of the king. These actions would have occurred whether religion existed or not.

I hope this helps show where I am coming from.

[inmate running the asylum]

Panel,

Inmate, verses 9-20 of Mark are controversial, most ancient authorities bring the book of Mark to an end after verse 8. And most Bibles with verses 9-20 printed in them, is side noted as being "doubtful".

5-1 - Well Panel as I recall reading years ago, verses 9-20 of Mark were considered questionable by some individuals. But these individuals as I recall were not "religious authorities" within organized religion's leadership, but skeptics, atheists, or agnostics, who raised that point.

5-2 - I do not own every Bible in existence, but reading several Catholic Bible editions and the King James Bible in my possession now, verses 9-20 in Mark are included and there are no "doubtful" footnotes regarding these verses in any of these Bibles. Therefore hundreds of millions of the faithful owning these Bibles would certainly not be aware of any controversy regarding Mark 9-20, and therefore I dont see how you can state that "most" Bibles are footnoted as such. And Im sure organized religion would prefer to keep it that way. :laugh:

So being that you are referring to these "ancient authorities," maybe you can enlighten us as to who these specific authorities are.

5-3 - Then lets just set aside for a moment the debate about Mark 9-20 above. You seem to think that Jesus as depicted in the Bible, is always a nice guy. Are you trying to tell me that Jesus did not believe in hell fire and damnation for unbelieving people? Then I suppose the following verses found in the Catholic and King James Bibles must also be set aside?

5-4 - The philosopher, Bertrand Russell [1872-1970] who won the Nobel Prize for literature in 1950, had this to say about the character of Jesus. QUOTE: "There is one very serious defect to my mind in Christ's moral character, and that is he believed in hell. I do not feel that any person who is profoundly humane can believe in everlasting punishment....... I really do not think that a person with a proper degree of kindliness in his nature would have put fears and terrors of that sort into the world." END QUOTE

5-5 - So below are some of the verses I have provided, to which Bertrand Russell refers. First speaking to some UNBELIEVING Jews in the Bible, which undoubtedly led to centuries of persecution of innocent Jews....

Jesus says: "Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the DAMNATION OF HELL?" Luke 21:22 - KJB

5-6 - Then Bertrand Russell goes on to say about Jesus: QUOTE "I must say that I think all this doctrine, that hell-fire is a punishment of sin, is a doctrine of cruelty. It is a doctrine that put cruelty into the world and gave the world generations of cruel torture; and the Christ of the gospels, if you could take him as his chroniclers represent him, he would certainly have to be considered partly responsible for that." END QUOTE

Jesus further states in the Bible about his 2nd coming: "The Son of Man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity. And shall cast them into a FURNACE OF FIRE: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Matthew 13:41-42 - KJB

........... Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, INTO EVERLASTING FIRE, prepared for the devil and his angels.Matt. 25:40 - KJB

5-7 - Then regarding your statement about the crusades, I cant buy into the theory that the soldiers went there primarily for gold, although some of them did eventually get into some looting. The crusades were started by the papacy, with the popes selling indulgences to anyone who participated and it was the popes who pointed the crusaders in the direction of the Holy Land.

5- 8 - Several of the crusades never even reached the Holy Land, but instead got sidetracked and they began pillaging and looting other cities. Besides after the crusaders looted Jerusalem the first time -- what little gold there was, was then taken -- so why the need for more crusades? The real reason was that the crusaders got thrown out of the Holy Land and made many unsuccessful attempts to retake it. And the Children's Crusade was certainly not after gold. No..... the main reason people participated in the crusades, was the papacy sold them indulgences -- putting gold in the pockets of the Church -- which guaranteed that their souls would eventually wind up in heaven. - That is after a slight detour in purgatory. :laugh:

5-9 - Finally, what book are you quoting from below. This is not out of some Bible I take it? And no Im not sure where you are coming from, Panel. What religion are you?

"This age of lawlessness and unbelief is under Satan, who does not allow the truth and power of God to prevail over the unclean things dominated by the spirits [or, does not allow the unclean things dominated by the spirits to grasp the truth and power of God]. Therefore reveal your righteousness now.' They spoke to Christ. And Christ responded to them, "The limit of the years of Satan's power is completed, but other terrible things draw near. And for those who sinned I was handed over to death, that they might return to the truth and no longer sin, in order that they might inherit the spiritual and incorruptible heavenly glory of righteousness"

[Romo]

Originally posted by inmate running the asylum

5-7 - Then regarding your statement about the crusades, I cant buy into the theory that the soldiers went there primarily for gold, although some of them did eventually get into some looting. The crusades were started by the papacy, with the popes selling indulgences to anyone who participated and it was the popes who pointed the crusaders in the direction of the Holy Land.

5- 8 - Several of the crusades never even reached the Holy Land, but instead got sidetracked and they began pillaging and looting other cities. Besides after the crusaders looted Jerusalem the first time -- what little gold there was, was then taken -- so why the need for more crusades? The real reason was that the crusaders got thrown out of the Holy Land and made many unsuccessful attempts to retake it. And the Children's Crusade was certainly not after gold. No..... the main reason people participated in the crusades, was the papacy sold them indulgences -- putting gold in the pockets of the Church -- which guaranteed that their souls would eventually wind up in heaven. That is after a slight detour in purgatory. :laugh:

[/b]

[Romo]

Originally posted by inmate running the asylum

5-7 - Then regarding your statement about the crusades, I cant buy into the theory that the soldiers went there primarily for gold, although some of them did eventually get into some looting. The crusades were started by the papacy, with the popes selling indulgences to anyone who participated and it was the popes who pointed the crusaders in the direction of the Holy Land.

5- 8 - Several of the crusades never even reached the Holy Land, but instead got sidetracked and they began pillaging and looting other cities. Besides after the crusaders looted Jerusalem the first time -- what little gold there was, was then taken -- so why the need for more crusades? The real reason was that the crusaders got thrown out of the Holy Land and made many unsuccessful attempts to retake it. And the Children's Crusade was certainly not after gold. No..... the main reason people participated in the crusades, was the papacy sold them indulgences -- putting gold in the pockets of the Church -- which guaranteed that their souls would eventually wind up in heaven. That is after a slight detour in purgatory. :laugh:

[/b]

I think you have a few mistaken assumptions about the Crusades. The Papacy didnt sell indulfences to crusaders. What you may be thinking of is that at the time many people believed that if you took a pilgrimage to the Holy Land all your sins would be forgiven. Pope Urban II who called for the Crusades played up this belief and basically said anyone who goes to the Holy Land and Jerusalem will find salvation.

Also the Crusades didnt get "thrown out of the Hply Land" until the left around the 1290s. Jerusalem fell to Saladin aroun 1187/8. Sebsequent crusades were attempts to regain Jerusalem. But the 5th crusade for example, which went to Egypt, did so as a strategic interest with the final goal being Jerusalem. Crusading ideology shifted because they knew they could not simply overwhelm the Muslims. in the 3rd crusade led by Richard the Lionheart he opted to take Acre and Ascalon, staying along the coast rather then risk his supply lines by attacking Jerusalem, which would have been near impossible to hold. Crusading ideology of conversion should also be noted. there were crusades within Europe against heretics and pagans. Crusading ideology often changed with who was the Pope and which Kings or Princes were in charge of the crusades.

The reasons people signed up for the Crusades is not as simple as you make it seem. Other factors come into play besides, the selling of indulgences which is not quite true as i pointed out. Some were legitimately religious. Some were extremely loyal to their lords and followed them. Some would have been forced by their lords. Some saw the possibility for wealth and power. Either through land grants or trading. Gold was not even the biggest draw to the Holy Lands. Religious artifacts would have been more plentiful. At the time there were many people in Europe selling pieces of "the real cross" or numerous other religious artifacts. It was equivalent to Tulipmania in Holland in the 1600s or Baseball Cards in America. Alot of money could be made selling these artifacts, which were said to have spiritual powers.

The only crusade which was truly about wealth and gold was the 4th crusade which was diverted to Constatinople. It was a revenge on the parts of the Venetians who had been cut out of trading privilages along with the fact Constatinople was one of the wealthiest cities in the world at the time. It should be noted though that the Pope condemened those involved in this crusade, even though he was not a supporter of the Byzantine Emperor. Also many of the soldiers (about 6000 of 10000), when they found out they would be fighting other Christians and hearing the Pope's warning of attacking Constatinople, initially refused to proceed with the crusade. A main reason for them continuing was the loyalty they had to their lords.

[Andy Capp]

Orangeskin, how's the weather in the cuse' today?

BTY Carmello is coming!

[inmate running the asylum]

Romo sits to pee,

Your contribution and points made in the thread are well taken and received. In fact I had to pull out some of my old college history textbooks, to verify my memory about the crusades and to check out the points you made. It turns out we are BOTH RIGHT and WRONG about the crusades, at least according to some historians.

6-1 - I was wrong in saying that the crusaders were MAINLY interested in going on the crusades because of indulgences. Panel was wrong about saying they were mainly interested in gold. You were wrong in saying that the crusaders were not sold indulgences by the popes. That is the problem I guess in all of us trying to summarize in a couple of paragraphs, something as complicated as the crusades in history, on which entire books have been written. But I guess at least we all learned something new.

6-2 - I would agree with all your points as to the reasons for the crusades, except this one which I originally stated. My source of reference is a history text book on the crusades.

The Papacy didnt sell indulgences to crusaders.

QUOTE: *"A crusade was not a new thing. For years, under the auspices of the Church, the nobility of Europe had been nibbling away at Muslim domination of Spain, but the sporadic expeditions had never become a mass movement; they did not hold the religious appeal that an all-out war with infidels would provide.

... In 1095, while the reformed Cluniac papacy was still in power, and the investiture struggle was not yet settled, Pope Urban II called for the First Crusade in a masterly and impassioned speech.

... All these things must have passed through Pope Urban's mind while he played upon the religious feelings of the people, upon the martial feelings of the nobility, and while he promised a plenary or full indulgence for all their sins to those who died for the cause, and when he gave permission to Peter the Hermit to preach a crusade throughout Christendom. - page 573

Indulgences had been cheapened by indiscriminate gifts of them to crusaders, the purity of whose deeds and motives were questionable. - page 581

* Source: The Heritage of the Past to 1500 by Steward Easton

6-3 - Also when I stated the crusaders were "thrown out of the Holy Land," I was correct but incorrect is using the term so loosely. They were thrown out of Jerusalem when Saladin recaptured the city in 1187. By "Holy Land" I really meant Jerusalem because in those times an inferior army or nation under attack, usually retreated behind walled cities, and made little attempt to hold the countryside. Consequently, when the crusaders first captured Jerusalem with its relics, the Holy Land was considered taken, although in actual fact the crusaders never really had the manpower to control much of the surrounding country.

[inmate running the asylum]

So when is some believer in one of the three Bibles out there -- JEWISH, CATHOLIC or PROTESTANT -- going to respond and give us his/her spin on the falsehood found in the Old Testament at Joshua 10: 12-14?

Doesnt anyone go to church or read their Bibles anymore? :laugh:

[Skins24]

1 question Inmate.

Why?

If you disagree with religion and Bible(s) so much...why study them??

What's the point? What are you trying to gain? What are you trying to prove?

You seem to be looking for everything wrong in the books, why not look for the good things?

You have your beliefs and the billions of people around the world who follow a religion have theirs. Why are you looking for evidence to crush billions of peoples...lives?

AND WHY DO YOUR POST HAVE TO BE SO LONG!!!!???? :gus:

- Religion has lasted for thousands of years. I find it hard to believe something that last so long, basically unchanging, can be the nonsense you suggest it is Inmate. I'm racking my brain trying to find out if some other idea has lasted nearly as long as religion. Especially the jewish religion. I mean something has to be right, or it wouldn't have lasted these thousands of years, right?

[panel]

http://www.hope.edu/academic/religion/bandstra/BIBLE/MAR/MAR16.HTM

Mark 16 reads exactly how it is written in the above website in my Bible. Hope this helps you see where I'm coming from.

The web sites below discuss the discrepancies in Mark 16 better than I can.

http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/mark/mark16.htm

http://www.bibletexts.com/versecom/mar16v09.htm

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/4229/mark.html

[OrangeSkin]

Here is your answer regarding Joshua 10: 12-14

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/JamiesonFaussetBrown/jfb.cgi?book=jos&chapter=10#Jos10_13

12-15. Then spake Joshua to the Lord . . . and . . . he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still . . . and thou, Moon--The inspired author here breaks off the thread of his history of this miraculous victory to introduce a quotation from an ancient poem, in which the mighty acts of that day were commemorated. The passage, which is parenthetical, contains a poetical description of the victory which was miraculously gained by the help of God, and forms an extract from "the book of Jasher," that is, "the upright"--an anthology, or collection of national songs, in honor of renowned and eminently pious heroes. The language of a poem is not to be literally interpreted; and therefore, when the sun and moon are personified, addressed as intelligent beings, and represented as standing still, the explanation is that the light of the sun and moon was supernaturally prolonged by the same laws of refraction and reflection that ordinarily cause the sun to appear above the horizon, when it is in reality below it [KEIL, BUSH]. Gibeon ("a hill") was now at the back of the Israelites, and the height would soon have intercepted the rays of the setting sun. The valley of Ajalon ("stags") was before them, and so near that it was sometimes called "the valley of Gibeon" (Isaiah 28:21). It would seem, from Joshua 10:14, that the command of Joshua was in reality a prayer to God for the performance of this miracle; and that, although the prayers of eminently good men like Moses often prevailed with God, never was there on any other occasion so astonishing a display of divine power made in behalf of His people, as in answer to the prayer of Joshua. Joshua 10:14 is the end of the quotation from Jasher; and it is necessary to notice this, as the fact described in it is recorded in due course, and the same words, by the sacred historian (Joshua 10:43).

[inmate running the asylum]

rskin24.......... Ok rskin24, I'll try to answer your questions as best I can.

If you disagree with religion and Bible(s) so much...why study them??

I don’t study them much anymore. My posts now are all based on years of past research and from notes taken from my notebooks.

What's the point? What are you trying to gain? What are you trying to prove?

What’s the point? Well, what’s the point in learning anything new or attempting to get to the truth of anything?

7-1 - I suppose the following reader’s review of Carl Sagan’s book, "Demon Haunted World," pretty much sums it up as to what’s my point. As Carl Sagan states "I believe that the extraordinary should be pursued. But extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." He urges everyone to think skeptically and to express our opinions while being respectful of others' beliefs. Unfortunately those who would benefit from more skepticism are the ones less likely to pick up his book. It takes courage to abandon the comforts of an "all-loving" ever present god, immortality, and belief in psychic powers in exchange for the truth. However, Sagan shows us how science has greatly improved the quality of life throughout history, and how the systematic search for truth can be more rewarding than blinded-faith. We should be open minded ("Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence") without being gullible. And we must remember how "wishful thinking" does not make something true.

7-2 - I guess I could have asked the same question as you, to the writings of certain skeptics I ran across, which aroused my curiosity in the beginning. I guess I'm trying to reveal the truth as I now see it, because I discovered that I had been deceived by organized religion. In fact I think we have all been deceived, Jewish, Catholic and Protestants, which is my reason for comparing and showing the verses in the three Bibles. I don’t think that anyone has ever shown that comparison before in any book. At least that I am aware of.

7-3 - If you go to public libraries to research books on the Bible, you will find hundreds or maybe even thousands of pro-Bible books. But the number of books that criticize or speak out against the "holy Bible" are almost impossible to find. Is this a conspiracy? Probably not, but one has to wonder. There are probably a lot of reasons for this. Anti-biblical books may not be best-sellers; publishers and authors who knew the real truth were afraid to write and publish what they knew; some authors were also threatened in many ways, such as by physical harm, loss of income, employment, prestige, etc.

7-4 - Anyway, I found DECEPTION in the Bibles and with organized religion and I thought to myself...... if this is truly the word of God..... why the need for deception? Then one day I also realized all the harm that has been caused to innocent people by the three Bibles, especially by other misguided people using them as manuals of instruction. If you have read all my posts, you should know what I’m talking about here, but Mark Twain says it best.

7-5 - "During many ages there were witches. The Bible said so. The Bible commanded that they should not be allowed to live. Therefore the Church, after doing its duty in but a lazy and indolent way for 800 years, gathered up its halters, thumbscrews, and firebrands, and set about its holy work in earnest. She worked hard at it night and day during nine centuries and imprisoned, tortured, hanged, and burned whole hordes and armies of witches, and washed the Christian world clean with their foul blood. Then it was discovered that there was no such thing as witches, and never had been. One doesn't know whether to laugh or to cry. Who discovered that there was no such thing as a witch -- the priest, the parson? No these never discover anything." pg 164

-- Mark Twain [1835-1910], American novelist

7- 6 - What do I have to gain? Probably nothing. I know I waste a lot of time posting here, which could probably be put to better use. But maybe I can enlighten someone else, as some skeptic years ago enlightened me. Maybe the post I made previously below, can shed some light on my reasons and help you understand.

Number 20 - A Catholic priesthood candidate who turned to

atheism and was excommunicated.

Few of his devotees knew he was a youthful candidate for the Catholic priesthood who turned to atheism and was excommunicated. Will Durant later wrote, "By the end of my sophomore year, I had discovered... that Christianity was only one of a hundred religions claiming special access to truth and salvation; and that myths of virgin births, mother goddesses, dying and resurrected deities, had appeared in many pre-Christian faiths... i could no longer think of becoming a priest." Durant said he "relinguished my belief in heaven" and felt smug "pride of belonging to the elite few who had liberated themselves from the falsehoods that had kept most Europeans and Americans in bondage for 15 centuries.

7-7 - "In France the Church was a powerful organization owning a large share of the national wealth and soil. It refused to pay taxes beyond its occasional 'gratuitious gift'; it held thousands of peasants in practical serfdom on its lands; it maintained monks in what seemed to be fruitless idleness. It had repeatedly profited from false documents and bogus miracles. It controlled nearly all schools and universities, through which it inoculated the minds of the young with stupefying absurdies. It denounced as heresy any teaching contrary to its own, and used the state to enforce its censorship over speech and press. It had done its best to choke the intellectual development of France. It had urged Louis XIV into the inhuman persecution of the Huguenots, and the heartless destruction of Port Royal. It had been guilty of barbarous campaigns against the Albigenses, and of sanctioning massacres like that of St. Bartholomew's Day; it had fomented religious wars that had almost ruined France. And amid all these crimes against the human spirit it had pretended, and made millions of simple people believe, that it was above and beyond reason and questioning, that it had inherited a divine revelation, that it was the infallible and divinely inspired viceregent of God, and its crimes were as much the will of God as were its charities." p264-65

-- Will Durant [1885-1981]

noted American historian, who wrote the monumental history series: The Story of Civilization

You seem to be looking for everything wrong in the books, why not look for the good things?

7-8 - Well there is truth to what you say, but that is because there have already been thousands of books written that told about the “good side” of the holy books. But where is the balance?Where are the books that tell the real TRUTH about the Bibles, which is: that they are not the "word of God;" they are not the entire truth; they contain falsehoods, mistakes, errors, contradictions and racism; and that organized religion has deceived us; and these books have been responsible for millions of innocent people being harmed and killed in history.

You have your beliefs and the billions of people around the world who follow a religion have theirs. Why are you looking for evidence to crush billions of peoples...lives?

7-9 - I used to believe in the Bible and now I don’t. But my life has certainly not been crushed because I discovered the real truth, which was that I had been deceived by organized religion. Then another thing you should realize, is that the Protestant, Catholic and Jewish religions are mutually exclusive. They can’t all be right. What their religious authorities really claim is that: my religion, God and beliefs are correct and your religion whatever it is sucks. That is one reason you have Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland killing each other; why Jews and Arabs are killing each other in Israel; and why Christians were killing Muslims in Kosovo. The Old Testament of all three Bibles -- Catholic, Protestant, Jewish -- is not a book of religious toleration, but says to destroy the altars and therefore the religions of other non-believers [pagans]. [Deut. 12: 2-3] And what you may not realize having probably never read the Koran, is that all four of these holy books ironically portray the very SAME GOD. In the Koran you also find the same cast of characters as in the Jewish and Christian Bibles, such as Jesus, Mary, Moses, angels, Satan, etc. But most Americans don’t know this, because they have never read the Koran.

As for the length of my posts, I’m trying to shorten them. Don't ask so many questions at one time, then I don't have to give so many answers. :laugh:Besides, in the longer posts I'm giving you more bang for your buck.:laugh:

[Terry]

I don't think I can agree that papal indulgences were the driving motive of the crusade for the christian warriors.

I would say that the code of chivalry, along with the extremely tight coupling of religion to the fuedal system, the fuedal heirarchy that tied knights to the nobility, and the almost suffocating influence of religion on medeival thought, led most of the knights and nobility towards the crusades.

The christianized descendants of heathen Vikings, Saxons, Franks, or Gauls had the most rigid code of personal fealty, personal responsibility, and personal honor of that or any other era. And it was strongly intertwined with a religious ardor that permeated the entire fabric of society.

My guess is that papal indulgences were a bonus, not the driving motivation.

[Skins24]

And what you may not realize having probably never read the Koran, is that all four of these holy books ironically portray the very SAME GOD. In the Koran you also find the same cast of characters as in the Jewish and Christian Bibles

I did know that actually...

How can different religions, some of whom hate each other with a passion, believe in the same stuff and what these blood enemies believe in be completely false? That doesn't add up...

Something has to be true. Doesn't it?

Where are the books that tell the real TRUTH about the Bibles

Well since no one is still alive, you're never going to find it here on earth. It's all guesses and theories.

[Terry]

Inmate:

I would still like to hear about how you arrived at your conclusions sometime or nonbelief as you state. I would imagine that as most of us were, you were still initially brought up in some religion by your parents, which you later rejected.

I was taught catholicism and methodism, but it didn't take. Maybe becuase although the message can be taught, the faith can't. I just don't have it, or at least in any traditional christian or religious sense.

Something deep inside me kept saying, 'wait a minute, this CAN'T be right'.

So when I do think about thingsl, my questions these days tend to come from a different angle:

. what is the evolutionary advantage of a conscience?

. what is guilt, and again, what is the evolutionary point to it?

. is altruism an evolutionarilly compatible concept?

. what is superstition?

. what is the individual need for external controlling influence, why is it there?

. how psychologically disturbing is the understanding of mortality, how does the mind defend itself from the concept?

. is there a relationship between religious piety, and the satisfaction of needs on Maslow's heirarchy?

And if I think about religion, I ask myself questions such as 'why do oriental religions in general, and buddhism in particluar, seem to be closer to my understanding of the universe?'