Terry Posted June 13, 2002 Share Posted June 13, 2002 Hey Mardi, Try this decipher page instead, then click the link that says 'Hittites and the riddle of the scripts'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardi gras skin Posted June 13, 2002 Share Posted June 13, 2002 Got it now. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inmate running the asylum Posted June 13, 2002 Author Share Posted June 13, 2002 Posted by Mardi I wonder if that's true. I wonder if the political leaders that used religion to kill people were more effective than the political leaders who used socialism, etc. to kill people. Religious indifference was definitely not a limiting factor for Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Hitler and Pol Pot. They have, what, 100 million deaths to their combined credit? Even if you turned out to be right, Mardi, and 100 million people were murdered for political reasons and only 99 million were murdered for religious reasons, it still doesn't say much for religion and is hardly anything to rejoice about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardi gras skin Posted June 14, 2002 Share Posted June 14, 2002 True. Some people will hurt anyone using anything--religion, money, politics, race, etc.--as a reason to make themselves out to be more than they are. It says nothing good about religion, but it is a continuing reinforcement of my faith in God, not man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inmate running the asylum Posted June 16, 2002 Author Share Posted June 16, 2002 I just read in Saturday's newspaper where a Boston jury convicted Jacques Robidoux of 1st degree murder, for letting his 10-month old son starve to death. The leader of a Christian fundamentalist sect told the jury he ordered his son be deprived of solid food for 51 days, after his sister received a prophesy and instructions from God, as punishment for his wife's vanity and pridefulness. Robidoux said he had "faith" that "a miracle might save his son." The baby subsequently starved to death. His wife has also been charged with 2nd degree murder and his sister is to be tried separately as an accessory. So I guess we can chalk up still another murder to religion and Biblical interpretation and an additional 3 adult lives ruined. When is the public going to wake up to this superstitious nonsense? :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MD Daniel Posted June 17, 2002 Share Posted June 17, 2002 Hey Inmate, I think there has been a fundamental miscommunication between us. All the groups that you have been using as your examples of religion being messed up are not what I(and I think Mardi too) have been talking about. Religion, as in the institutional organizations that you are referring to, is basically pretty corrupt. I won't argue with that. I grieve when I read stuff like in your last post. But by saying they are corrupt I'm saying that there is something true that they are corrupting. True faith and moves of God are very unlike all of the groups you have been using as examples. If you want to know what it looks like, look into Celtic Christianity, the early Moravians, the early Methodists, the early Christians in general, and there are many more groups like them through the ages. There seems to always be a group who has it right in the midst of "religious" corruption. Those are the groups that I and those I'm involved with are emulating(or trying to emulate). We don't want to get institutionalized. We don't want to get stuck on power trips and personal preservation plans. We want to see God do what He's done in the past, and we want to be a part of it. As I see it, the reason you and Mardi have been arguing is because in your attacks on "religion" you have also attacked the bible. The bible is not the cause of corruption. Instead, the loss of respect for the bible, or a misunderstanding of it is the problem with those groups. Plus all the personal and institutional politics that are involved. And I haven't even touched any of the cultural issues involved. People apply their culture to the bible, and then apply what they get to all cultures. It's how you get the Roman church telling Anglo-Saxon peasents that they must have their services in Latin(in like the 400's...). People attach their culture and their cultures values to what they read and do. Which in and of itself can be fine. It's when you take the resulting system and apply it to other cultures that you run into big problems. Anyways... I too grieve when I read stuff like you posted. I make no efforts to defend corrupt religious organizations, but don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. God Bless, Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inmate running the asylum Posted June 17, 2002 Author Share Posted June 17, 2002 MD Daniel, 19-1 MD if you and Mardi and others want to believe in a god in the universe, as an agnostic I have no problem with that. As long as you do not harm or force your beliefs on anyone else, who chooses to believe in another god, or not to believe in a god at all. That is your choice. Fine. End of debate here. 19-2 - Ok MD, we both agree that organized religion is a hypocritical farce. No point in debating this further between you and I. 19-3 - With respect to Mardi on this issue I am confused though. I don’t want to put words in his mouth, but I seem to recall that he said he was also against organized religion. Why I am confused is that he attended the New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary [which represents and teaches for organized religion] and then he turns around and says that he interprets the Bible not as “they” see fit, but as he PERSONALLY sees fit. I suppose everyone has the right to change their mind, but he needs to explain this further to me, as to why and where they differ. 19-4 - With respect to “holy books” and the Bibles themselves -- Jewish, Catholic, and Protestant -- yes I do have a major gripe with these books. For there is nothing "holy" about them, and they are loaded smoking guns. Just like a loaded .38 revolver lying on the table cannot harm anyone in and of itself, neither can the Bible. But as soon as someone picks up the loaded gun or the Bible, and starts using it and interpreting it as they see fit, therein lies the harm and problem. That is why I have shown in recent posts, how cults, neo-Nazis, and even the KKK can use the Bible to recruit new members. 19-5 - There are many other reasons I am against the Biblical texts, but a few are as follows. First of all the Bible is either the “word of God” as claimed by organized religion, or it is not the “word of God.” There is no half-way house. I personally believe there are some true things in the Bible and some falsehoods. But the Bible is certainly not the "word of God." 19-6 - As I have been trying to show the more professional, educated ExtremeSkins on the board, the Bibles are so full of holes, that they even make Swiss cheese look solid. The original Biblical manuscripts were written by superstitious, sometimes corrupt, uneducated men, who were politically motivated and also interested in their own self aggrandizement 19-7 - In ancient times when the Bibles were written, there were no democracies [except briefly in ancient Greece]; there was no separation of church and state; and the Bibles are not books which advocated racial and religious tolerance. Even before the Vatican came along, the early church Fathers were religious bigots who incited people to persecute anyone, who “they” thought had a different interpretation of the scriptures and they classified as heretics. This included other pagan, Jewish and Christian sects, who interpreted the Bible differently. Most of these ancient theocracies were no better or different then today’s cruel Taliban. 19-8 - Do these verses found in the Jewish, Catholic and Protestant Bibles sound as if they tolerated other religions or other religious beliefs? If you do not obey the priests you die: :read: “And the man that will not do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the Lord thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die, and thou shalt put away the evil from Israel. [Deut. 17:12] Religious toleration is forbidden, destroy the altars of others. :read: “But ye shall destroy their ALTARS, break their images, and cut down their groves. *For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous god. [Ex. 34: 13-14] * As another scholar pointed out, this part of the verse is an absurd statement and admission by the Israelite-Christian God. For God in effect is admitting here, THAT THERE ARE INDEED OTHER GODS. For if God were truly omniscient [as claimed by organized religion], he would know whether there are other gods, so of what other gods would God be jealous? :doh: 19-9 - I also find it very offensive that the Israelite-Christian God says thoughout the Bible that you are to FEAR HIM, and even uses cruel and unusual punishment when man does not obey him. Even punishing some people with plagues and leprosy. Hardly the acts of a just or loving god. If God has truly given man freedom of choice, then why does God punish man in the Bible, when he exercises that freedom of choice? :read: FEAR GOD or ELSE! Lev. 25:17, Deut 28: 58-59, 11:17, 10:20 13:4, 6:13, 24:8-9, Ex. 14:31 19-10 - Does this God of vengeance below, sound like he permits religious toleration or allows man freedom of choice? :laugh: And Jesus was no better, saying in many places in the NT to FEAR HIM, AND that if you did not believe in him, you would burn forever in hell. [Mark 16:16] There is no forgiveness here, as Jesus says death is final. :read: "And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me: Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins. And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat. And I will destroy your high places and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcase of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you. [Lev. 26:27-30] :read: Jesus says: "And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forwarn you whom ye shall FEAR: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell, yea, I say unto you, Fear him. [Jesus] [Luke 12:4-5] So yes, MD, I have many misgivings about the Biblical texts, because of all the innocent people who have been murdered because of their differing views. Especially, in that the Bibles are not “the word of God.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MD Daniel Posted June 17, 2002 Share Posted June 17, 2002 Inmate, I'm still hoping to hear your story on here. The greatest thing you can learn about someone isn't what they believe, it's why they believe it. I'd very much love to hear how you came to believe how you do. Mardi can answer best for himself about his background. But I believe he went to Seminary to learn the bible and some practical approaches to doing ministry. I know people who have done that and avoided becoming part of "the system". I think our biggest point of disagreement is the whole tolerance thing. I don't hold democracies, separation of state and religion and racial and religious tolerance as great, universal values. I'm certainly not into the state religion or the "kill those who don't convert" ideas either. Our modern society may be the best man can accomplish without God, but it's not the best there can be(at least in my opinion). And then we have the bible disagreements. For you personal study I'd suggest you use a better thanslation than the one you are quoting. The NIV is decent. So are a number of the other newer ones. Our bible disagreements come from basic worldview and philosophy differences. Because of that I'm not gonna argue bible points, it would be a worthless exercise. So, basically... I just want to hear your story... if you will do me the honor of sharing it. Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inmate running the asylum Posted June 18, 2002 Author Share Posted June 18, 2002 MD Daniel, There isn’t much of a story to tell and I think I have already told it in pieces somewhere in all these posts. I was baptized at the age of 14 in the Baptist religion, probably because of family and peer pressure. I then drifted away from going to church about a year later, and have not attended a church in decades, except at funerals and going into churches like the Vatican and Notre Dame as a tourist. My mother was a well intentioned devout Christian, but was not formally educated and never read the entire Bible. My father I never knew, because he was killed in the war. My step-father was Jewish and a generous man I respected. Later on I married a woman who was Catholic. So I don’t think I have any axe to grind with any religion and although I have been wrong about many things, I don’t think being narrow-minded is one of them. Although I professed to be a born-again Christian for decades, I finally realized one day that I had never read more than 50 pages of the King James Bible. So it finally dawned on me how stupid that was. By this time I had graduated from college having majored in accounting and law, and had been working as an criminal investigator for about a decade. Then one day I decided being that I was involved in all types of homicide investigations, why not “investigate the Bible.” At the time I was naive and did not realize how complex it was, but this launched me on a 4 to 5 year quest. Having worked on fraud investigations also, one thing I did that was unique, was compare the Biblical text of the Jewish Tanakh, Catholic Bible and King James Bible, word-for-word. I have never read where anyone has ever done that and I wouldn’t recommend it, because it is extremely tedious and time consuming. However, it turned out to be very revealing. Having traveled all over the world even before I backpacked twice around the world, I had a natural interest in history, the classics and archaeology, and had read extensively in those fields. I have visited Italy, Israel and Egypt on more than one occasion, so I was able to see, feel and place the Bible in its proper historical setting. As a criminal investigator having also worked on investigations where my client’s life was on the line -- based on what I discovered -- investigations and detail were something I did not take lightly. I began my investigation of the Bible as a believer, but not too long afterwards, I began to see it in a different light. I made no attempt to “fool” myself, into believing other than what the facts showed the Bible to be. For I soon realized it was a book containing many falsehoods, and certainly was not the “word of any god.” Understand I am not claiming that everything in the Bible is false. This revelation would not have bothered me too much, if the Bible were being sold on the newsstands to the public as a known fictional comic book. But what really bothered me was when I began to see how the Bible’s false doctrines were responsible for the harm and death of millions. And how organized religion used doctrines and the Bible to TEACH and JUSTIFY all matter of crimes and injustice to mankind throughout history. Being a decent individual I believe, I wanted no part of any “holy book” or association with any organization which had been connected with so many heinous crimes and injustices to man. In that so few individuals have even read the ENTIRE Bible [Rev. Charles Templeton claims only 1 in 1000], I realize most of the public is in the position I was in when I started my investigation. If you have "faith" in a god, simply because you feel there must be a creator, I have no problem with that. If on the other hand your "faith" is based on the Bible, you are wrong because it is not the word of God, and your faith and beliefs are ill founded. This brings me up to the present. I hope this answers your questions, MD. So why do I care? ------- The triumph of evil happens, when good men do nothing. --Edmund Burke, Irish philosopher [1729-1797] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inmate running the asylum Posted June 18, 2002 Author Share Posted June 18, 2002 Posted by MD Daniel I think our biggest point of disagreement is the whole tolerance thing. I don't hold democracies, separation of state and religion and racial and religious tolerance as great, universal values. Hmm. So you don't hold racial and religious tolerance as great universal values? Then what do you believe in, racial and religious INTOLERANCE? We have enough of that going on right now, with the Israeli's and Palestinians killing each other. :doh: Posted by MD Daniel And then we have the bible disagreements. For your personal study I'd suggest you use a better thanslation than the one you are quoting. The NIV is decent. :deal: For your information, MD, most of the time it usually makes no difference which Bible translation is used. In that you have not read the Jewish Tanakh, Catholic Bible and King James Bible, and have no experience at comparing Biblical verses, you can be excused for this oversight. Excluding the extra books in the Catholic Bible, generally speaking I found that 98% of the time the three Bibles match in meaning, if not exactly in words. The 2% of the time they don't match in meaning, however, can be very significant. In that you and Mardi keep harping on the NIV translations as opposed to the King James Bible translations, I borrowed a friend's NIV Bible. Below there is absolutely no difference in meaning between the NIV Bible and the King James Bible, on the Biblical verses I previously posted. Which now makes me wonder whether you have even read the NIV Bible. In fact all the Bibles -- Catholic, Jewish, NIV, and King James -- reflect the exact same meaning, in the below verses. The only reason I always quote the Biblical verses from the King James Bible, IS BECAUSE THE KJ BIBLE IS IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN! The other Bibles are not. Can you two guys understand the legal ramifications of that? If you do not obey the priests you die: :read: “And the man that will not do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the Lord thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die, and thou shalt put away the evil from Israel. [Deut. 17:12] Religious toleration is forbidden, destroy the altars of others. :read: “But ye shall destroy their ALTARS, break their images, and cut down their groves. *For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous god. [Ex. 34:13-14] God says: :read: "And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me: Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins. And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat. And I will destroy your high places and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcase of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you. [Lev. 26:27-30] Jesus says: :read: "And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forwarn you whom ye shall FEAR: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell, yea, I say unto you, Fear him. [Jesus] [Luke 12:4-5] So as I said in the previous post, the above verses apply just the same to the NIV Bible as they do to the other Bibles. :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MD Daniel Posted June 21, 2002 Share Posted June 21, 2002 Inmate, Let me explain something to you. First off, I am in no way for racial or religious intolerance. I am proud to live in the most diverse countr in the world. Don't you dare imply that I am a bigot. My beef with holding tolerance as a universal value is that people who hold it as such(like you) seem to not really believe anything. I do believe in truth. I believe truth can be known. I believe it's mostly(if not completely) subjective, but it's truth none the less. I will champion the truth that I have known and experienced. I will not back down from that. If people reject it, that's fine, they are responsible for themselves. But here I am being told that tolerance is a universal value by someone who continually attacks my beliefs. Something isn't right there. As for your bible quotes. First off, I wasn't harping on the NIV. I personally don't like it much(too commercialized, and I completely agree with you about the copyright thing), but it's becoming a standard, and I can understand it, so I suggested you use it. Second, you need to seperate out the hebrew bible(old testament) from the new testament. Then you need to seperate them both out from our current situation. This is the subjective thing I mentioned earlier. What God told to a tribe thousands of years ago is the word of God, it's just not the word of God spoken to me. Things were much different back then, and people needed different rules. Things changed. Things have changed from the new testament too. Does that mean it's not the word of God? No, it doesn't. It was God speaking to the people of that time. Is there a ton we can learn from it? Absolutely. Are there many principles that we can use as a good guide for our life? Yep, sure are. Should we be worshipping the bible? Nope, we should worship the God it tells us about. All this quoting rules that were given to a tribe thousands of years ago, and quoting Jesus wrong(He wasn't talking about himself in your quote, He was talking about His Father, God.) is not only not making your point, it's making me not want anything to do with you. Here's the deal Inmate. You can say what you want, but you need to get over whatever it is that is keeping you from God. You need to repent and get yourself right with God. That's the deal... Call me intolerant all you want... you started this thread to attack people's religious beliefs. I have no problem pointing out the hypocricy in that situation. Alright, I'm done... back to work... Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inmate running the asylum Posted June 21, 2002 Author Share Posted June 21, 2002 MD Daniel, Posted by MD ... Call me intolerant all you want... I don't know why you and Mardi have so much trouble with English comprehension or reading. First off YOU made the statement YOU didn't hold racial and religious tolerance as a great universal value. I merely asked the logical QUESTION: Then what do you believe in racial and religious intolerance? I did not make a statement nor did I call you intolerant. I asked for an explanation. Posted by MD ..... you started this thread to attack people's religious beliefs. No I did not. You are a new subscriber, otherwise you would know that this thread is a continuation of Religion I, which Orangeskin started months ago. I have not attacked anyone's PERSONAL BELIEF, but I have criticized the three Bibles and attacked organized religion. I have no problem with people believing whatever they want to believe or chose not to believe, but as usual some people have a problem with people who don't believe in god or the Bible. Its a free country [or at least so I've been told] so if you don't like what I post here, no one is forcing you to read them. Posted by MD ... and quoting Jesus wrong (He wasn't talking about himself in your quote, He was talking about His Father, God.) How could I possibly quote Jesus wrong, when what he said verbatim in the Bible is printed in RED INK? But I don't think it really matters either way. The POINT is that if you don't believe in Jesus or God, according to Christian doctrine, one is never forgiven and your a$$ burns forever in hell. Hardly a doctrine of love but a doctrine based on fear. Especially when you read where God says if you do not obey me, I will punish you by having you "eat your sons and daughters!" :doh: And because of the coercion and threats in the Bible, mankind's so-called free will is a farce and a myth. And because organized religion enforced this asinine Christian doctrine, with the Inquisition, etc., millions of innocent people were murdered in history because of it. Posted by MD You need to repent and get yourself right with God. See, now you are attacking my beliefs and telling me what to believe. And I would... except Zeus and I have not been on speaking terms lately. :laugh: Posted by MD Should we be worshipping the bible? Nope. That's what I have been saying all along in my posts. Maybe we have a little bit of common ground after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MD Daniel Posted June 22, 2002 Share Posted June 22, 2002 Inmate... >I asked for an explanation. You asked for an explanation? I'm not gonna go your route of sarcasm, although it's tempting. You have made no attempts to show any respect for my personal beliefs since I got here. All you do is make comments, roll yours eyes, etc, etc, etc. You can say you are all innocent and completely respectful, but no one else here thinks so... because you aren't coming off that way. Have I attacked anyone's beliefs? You think I attacked your beliefs by telling you to repent and get right with God? I'm confused. This is the issue of tolerance. According to you, I'm supposed to just let you(or anyone) go believing anything you want without trying to show you the truth that I know... I want no part in that tolerance! I tolerate by not forcing my beliefs on anyone. I don't want a state religion. I don't want to try to trick or brainwash anyone. You are free to believe whatever you want. And guess what? I'm free to tell you what I think you need to hear. You are right in saying I'm new. I didn't read Religion 1 or 2. I jumped in reading 3. Which you started to attack religious beliefs and to tell people to get our their superstition(that could be a quote if I wanted to waste my time looking for it). And how could you possibly quote Jesus wrong? Let's take a look at this one: Jesus says: "And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forwarn you whom ye shall FEAR: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell, yea, I say unto you, Fear him. [Jesus] [Luke 12:4-5] You stuck a [Jesus] in there implying he was talking about himself, which he certainly was not. That's the misquote. He was talking about His Father, God. Anyways... this is going nowhere... so I'll give you the last word... I'm done posting here... but I'll read whatever you wish to reply. Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCS Posted June 22, 2002 Share Posted June 22, 2002 Just a small interuption gentleman. MD here you go. this is what Inmate was refering to. http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7427&highlight=Religion+I Actually more like 4 threads we've had in Tailgate on this subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inmate running the asylum Posted June 22, 2002 Author Share Posted June 22, 2002 Posted by MD According to you, I'm supposed to just let you (or anyone) go believing anything you want without trying to show you the truth that I know... The truth? You have discovered the truth in the Bible? Yeah there is some truth in the Bible. But there are also some falsehoods in the Bible. Have you also discovered the falsehoods in the Bible, MD? Anyway, I’m all ears MD. After this post, you now have the podium. Ok, show me and the rest of us the truth you have discovered in the Bible or through scholarship. Prove it to me that you’ve read the entire Bible and lets see if you are the exception to the rule, when Reverend Charles Templeton said that only 1 out of 1000 Christian laymen have read the entire Bible. Lets see if you know what you are talking about. This is the first post in which you have said anything specific about the Bible, other then parroting Christian platitudes. So in that you are the first person here that has ever accused me of misquoting, lets examine Luke 12: 4-5 below again, where you said that I misquoted Jesus. First of all I inserted the brackets in his statement, to show any reader who has not read the entire Bible, that Jesus was the individual doing the talking and not me. So lets read it again. Jesus says: :read: And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forwarn [sic] whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed, hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.” [Luke 12: 4-5] Although it is obvious to me that Jesus is talking about HIMSELF and not God the Father, lets examine this further. It has always been my understanding as a former Christian, that at the LAST JUDGMENT, Jesus and not God was the one who would sit in judgment. But apparently you are claiming that God is the one who judges and not Jesus, and it will be God who casts people into hell. So what is your Christian religion which apparently I have never heard of? Now lets see if you have really discovered the TRUTH here. Jesus says: :read: “For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son” [John 5: 22 - KJB] It seems pretty clear to me here, without going any further..... but....... Jesus says::read: “For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.” [John 9:39] And then in :read: [Matt. 25: 31-46] Jesus describes the Last Judgment at great length, and explains how he is going to throw everyone’s butt into everlasting fire [ver. 41, hell] and everlasting punishment, who did not believe in him previously. The above verses read the same in meaning in all Christian Bibles: the Catholic, KJB and NIV. So I am all ears MD. Show me the TRUTH here or where I misquoted Jesus. Or show me that you are a man, and can admit you were wrong. Aside from that though, MD you are missing the whole POINT here. Which is that this Christian belief system is based on FEAR and physical THREATS to man. There is no free will here when someone has a gun to your head and says if you do not believe and do what I say, I am going to throw your a$$ into everlasting fire. What the hell kind of love is it, when God says if you do not obey me he will punish you, by having you "eat your sons and daughters! :doh: One may as well believe in the Aztec gods, which had almost the same blood rituals. :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MD Daniel Posted June 22, 2002 Share Posted June 22, 2002 Well, I said I was done... but I guess I'm a sucker for a challenge... so here you go inmate... I guess I'm 1 in 1000 Inmate. My fiance tells me I'm 1 in 1,000,000, but I guess that's different. Here's the deal with the quote of Jesus. Jesus most certainly will be doing the judgement on judgement day. No question, but he does nothing of his own, read John 5:19-30. The subject of the verse you quoted was the one with the power, not the one doing the judgement. You want to know the truth I've found? Here is John 5:39-40 for you: "You search the Scriptures, because you think you will find eternal life in them. The Scriptures tell about me, but you refuse to come to me for eternal life." -Jesus The bible is a guide, it points to a person. Unless you meet that person you will most certainly be missing the whole point. And you seem stuck on this fear thing, so let me address that. Let me use myself as an example. My friends aren't afraid of me, in fact most of them probably think I'm a big teady bear. But guess what? If any of them ever did anything bad to my fiance(amazing girl, Alicia, August 10th wedding) on purpose they would most certainly fear me, and rightfully so. As for the physical threats... I have a few responses here. First, old testament times were harsh ones. If it wasn't about brutal death, it wasn't serious. If it wasn't serious, no one listened. Second, Jesus was a prophet(as well as more) speaking to a nation that was going to be judged very harshly(68-70CE were not good years to be Jewish). And third, why on earth do people think Jesus spoke in parables and with examples everywhere exempt when he was talking about hell? Your insistance on quoting Leviticus and saying it's part of the christian belief system is wrong. And guess what? I don't like the "system" myself. I'm not sitting here arguing for the "christian system" or the "religious system" that you are attacking. In other places online you could probably find me tearing that system to shreds. Our american system(as well as the european one) is a mess. You can still find authentic faith in america, you just have to look a little harder. But if you really want to see God working, look to the 3rd world. Go visit Bogota, Columbia and tell me God isn't real. I apoligize to you on behalf of the whole american church. If you don't think God is real it's because of us, the church. The reason I haven't "said anything specific about the Bible" is because you only want to argue about it. If I thought for a second you really wanted to learn about God I would most certainly be using the bible a lot. Alright... the podium is empty... MD Daniel(by the way, I'm not a doctor, just noticed it looks that way, I'm just a guy from Maryland(MD)) has left the building... Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardi gras skin Posted June 23, 2002 Share Posted June 23, 2002 Back from a week in Maine. Man, is that state sweet! Anyone going can't miss Permaquid Point. Now where was I...:gus: I just read in Saturday's newspaper where a Boston jury convicted Jacques Robidoux of 1st degree murder, for letting his 10-month old son starve to death. The leader of a Christian fundamentalist sect told the jury he ordered his son be deprived of solid food for 51 days, after his sister received a prophesy and instructions from God, as punishment for his wife's vanity and pridefulness. Robidoux said he had "faith" that "a miracle might save his son." The baby subsequently starved to death. His wife has also been charged with 2nd degree murder and his sister is to be tried separately as an accessory. So I guess we can chalk up still another murder to religion and Biblical interpretation and an additional 3 adult lives ruined. When is the public going to wake up to this superstitious nonsense? It is mystifying to me that a man who earns his living through the machinations of the United States legal system can find the nerve to disparage an entire institution for the idiocy of a few. The day you take personal responsibility for the myriad abuses, negligence, and criminal activity of all the lawyers out there who are fleecing America, I'll claim responsibility for all the Robidoux idiots of this world. Goodness man. For want of a good argument, any old crap you read in the newspaper will do. NEXT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardi gras skin Posted June 23, 2002 Share Posted June 23, 2002 19-1 MD if you and Mardi and others want to believe in a god in the universe, as an agnostic I have no problem with that. As long as you do not harm or force your beliefs on anyone else, who chooses to believe in another god, or not to believe in a god at all. That is your choice. Fine. End of debate here. Then it was nice debating you, inmate. It is an imposibility for me to force someone to believe anything. A person may say they believe something to save their life or to get a cookie, but another person's belief is beyond my ability to control. Glad that you have no problem with my belief in God. I also have no problem with my belief in God so, in that, we have found common ground. Though, truth be told, you have spent a considerable amount of time bashing the guide book of a faith you claim to have no problem with. Or should I read "a god of the universe" to mean "a god (other than the Christian understanding of God) of the universe?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inmate running the asylum Posted June 23, 2002 Author Share Posted June 23, 2002 Mardi, Referring to the Robidoux murder case, this is a free country, and I can disparage any damn institution or organization that deserves it. I suppose with the 1400 lawsuits pending and rising in the U.S. against pastors and priests for pedophilia, after centuries of continuous abuse and cover-ups, we should continue to sweep that under the rug too. And this is not even counting the cases pending on the other side of the world. http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/newsid_1945000/1945848.stm I would also be at the head of the line to disparage any crooked lawyers out there, when and if the occasion arises. But you and I both know that there are already thousands of newspapers and media reporters worldwide, who cover and report on crooked lawyers to the public every week of the year. Whereas very few reporters or writers ever dare to criticize the “holy” Bible publicly, for fear of being accused of favoring one religion over another and losing their jobs. These two situations and professions, legal vs. religious, don’t even equate. There is no damn way the number of crooked lawyers in the world, equates with the millions of innocent people who have been harmed and murdered in history, in the name of religion and the Bible. As for personal responsibility for any crooked lawyers, yeah I have run into some of them who asked me to “slant” a statement or the TRUTH or an investigation in favor of their client. But I either told them where they could stick it or told them to look for another investigator. I have never been an employee of any lawyer or law firm, so I don’t have to take any crap from any of them. But I do have considerably more experience then you do, when it comes to finding and presenting the truth to a jury or a judge. Then it may be impossible for YOU to convince someone to believe in anything, but it obviously is not impossible for the David Koresh’s, Jim Jones, Heaven’s Gate and other religious weirdo’s out there, to convince naive people into believing the falsehoods and superstitions in the Bible. Nor is it that hard for the KKK, Neo-Nazis or other hate-groups to use the Bible to recruit racists, with all the racism and anti-Semitic verses in the New Testament. Besides I am not posting this information for your benefit, although I don’t mine your participation. After all you may be able to point out some mistake I made or overlooked, for I don‘t claim infallibility or perfection like the Bible or religious institutions you defend, who pretend that they have ALL the answers. http://www.americanknights.com/info.htm I realized when you ridiculed Reverend Charles Templeton’s book, that you still had your head stuck in the sand, and were not willing to consider a 3rd party’s viewpoint, who had been on a level with Billy Graham. That’s the difference between you and I, when it comes to searching for the truth. Whereas we were both indoctrinated in the Baptist faith since the cradle, when I began my investigation of the Bible, I read both sides pro and con -- the Summa Theologia, St. Anselm‘s works, St. Augustine’s works, the Catholic Bible, the Jewish Tanakh, the King James Bible, the Koran, and on and on -- before I finally made up my mind. I can admit my initial ignorance of the Bible and mistake but you cannot. And you once said I had blind bias. :doh: You may have intimidated some of the other agnostics who use to post in Religion I -- and whereas I will commend you for your community work [i have to take your word on that] -- but frankly I have not been impressed SO FAR with your Biblical knowledge, if you are a preacher as you claim. Less than 20% of the time do you ever back up anything you have to say with a Biblical verse reference or scholarship, but instead download a Christian website link, if that. I told you before that any 10 year-old kid could plug a religious phrase into computer “search” and then “cut and paste” the computer information to the board. What does that prove? It doesn’t even prove the person read what they posted. Then the best you can do is accuse me of reading things “out of context,” so I give you what historical and Biblical scholar sources say and then you accuse bygone pastors, Bruce Metzger, Garry Wills and James Carroll of being in error and also reading things out of context! Gary Wills is a Biblical scholar and Pulitzer Prize winning author, who now admits that seminaries taught deicide and anti-Semitism and Christianity condoned slavery. Or maybe you never read in history that the colonialists justified building their empires, by claiming they were not enslaving anyone, but really only "Christianizing the heathens?" So something is obviously wrong here, because I don’t believe you are the only person among all of us, who knows how to read. Apparently it just galls you to have to admit that the Bible is not perfect after all, and some parts are obviously false and were written by superstitious idiots. For when I showed you in the Bible where God’s prophesies obviously did not come true, the best you can offer is the lame excuse that Ezekiel must have been taking poetic license! I could show you other prophesies which God made which did not come true, but I would probably get the same lame excuse. Amazing! No I don't have any problem with your personal beliefs, but yes I do have a problem with ALL these so-called "holy books," that can be used to teach and justify just about anything. So suit yourself, post or don't post, it makes no difference to me. But at least I provide other professional people Biblical reference sources, so even if they don’t believe what I say, they can at least read it and decide for themselves. Now I'll climb down off the soapbox. :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardi gras skin Posted June 23, 2002 Share Posted June 23, 2002 I suppose with the 1400 lawsuits pending and rising in the U.S. against pastors and priests for pedophilia, after centuries of continuous abuse and cover-ups, we should continue to sweep that under the rug too. Here, we find another point of disagreement. While you feel that we should sweep pedophilia under the rug, I feel that we should not. Oh, suck your lip back in. I'm sure you don't condone pedophilia, because I tend to grasp the meaning of words beyond beyond lawyerese. Your inability to do the same when reading the Bible will always be the gulf between us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardi gras skin Posted June 23, 2002 Share Posted June 23, 2002 I would also be at the head of the line to disparage any crooked lawyers out there, when and if the occasion arises. But you and I both know that there are already thousands of newspapers and media reporters worldwide, who cover and report on crooked lawyers to the public every week of the year. Whereas very few reporters or writers ever dare to criticize the “holy” Bible publicly, for fear of being accused of favoring one religion over another and losing their jobs. No, "you and I both know" nothing of the sort. Dirty lawyers are reported on because dirty lawyers hurt people, the Bible never has. PEOPLE who have a personal agenda, using the Bible as their tool, have hurt people. Just like the McVeighs out there use the United States Consitiution to hurt people. Just like dirty lawyers use the US legal system to hurt people. Just like freaks have always used any tool at their disposal to hurt people. If you misuse almost anything (guns, cars, baseball bats, whatever), it can stop being beneficial and become harmful. You have built a parallel between dirty lawyers and the Bible. If you would be honest, the parallel is between dirty lawyers and dirty clergy. To my way of thinking, neither group is being investigated and punished harshly enough because there continue to be far to many of both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardi gras skin Posted June 24, 2002 Share Posted June 24, 2002 Then it may be impossible for YOU to convince someone to believe in anything, but it obviously is not impossible for the David Koresh’s, Jim Jones, Heaven’s Gate and other religious weirdo’s out there, to convince naive people into believing the falsehoods and superstitions in the Bible. Don't misstate the conversation, Inmate. You said, "force your beliefs on anyone else" not "convince someone to believe." Tell me you can see the difference. Please. I have spoken with people who have moved my in my beliefs of God and I have talked with people that I have been able to answer questions they had. If you want, I convinced them, though that is far too agressive and demeaning to the people who made theirm own decisions. How would I force my beliefs on someone anyway, Inmate? Brainwashing? Were you brainwashed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardi gras skin Posted June 24, 2002 Share Posted June 24, 2002 I realized when you ridiculed Reverend Charles Templeton’s book, that you still had your head stuck in the sand, and were not willing to consider a 3rd party’s viewpoint, who had been on a level with Billy Graham. Huh?! Here is what I said about Templeton: Regarding Templeton. Yea, the quote about his enounter with Strobel does nothing to undermine what he says in his book. I just that it was an interesting encounter between two polar opposites. One man who was a Billy Graham-type Christian became a militant athiest. The other a militant athiest who has become a Billy Graham-type Christian. Lee Strobel is a favorite author of mine. I haven't read Templeton, but I'll pick it up soon. Looks like a good book for me to read. I recommend Strobel's "A Case for Faith" as a counter-point. Now, do you mean that you quoted his book and I disagreed with it? I guess so. I've disagreed with just about everything you've said just as you've disagreed with what I've said and quoted. Would it help you if I quoted Billy Graham? If Billy Graham disagrees with Charles Templeton is that somehow more acceptable than me having the ability to disagree with the Reverand on my own? But if you disagreed with Billy Graham on your own, wouldn't that mean that you have your head stuck in the sand. too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardi gras skin Posted June 24, 2002 Share Posted June 24, 2002 I realized when you ridiculed Reverend Charles Templeton’s book, that you still had your head stuck in the sand, and were not willing to consider a 3rd party’s viewpoint, who had been on a level with Billy Graham. Huh?! Here is what I said about Templeton: Regarding Templeton. Yea, the quote about his enounter with Strobel does nothing to undermine what he says in his book. I just that it was an interesting encounter between two polar opposites. One man who was a Billy Graham-type Christian became a militant athiest. The other a militant athiest who has become a Billy Graham-type Christian. Lee Strobel is a favorite author of mine. I haven't read Templeton, but I'll pick it up soon. Looks like a good book for me to read. I recommend Strobel's "A Case for Faith" as a counter-point. Now, do you mean that you quoted his book and I disagreed with it? I guess so. I've disagreed with just about everything you've said just as you've disagreed with what I've said and quoted. Would it help you if I quoted Billy Graham? If Billy Graham disagrees with Charles Templeton is that somehow more acceptable than me having the ability to disagree with the Reverand on my own? But if you disagreed with Billy Graham on your own, wouldn't that mean that you have your head stuck in the sand. too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardi gras skin Posted June 24, 2002 Share Posted June 24, 2002 Whereas we were both indoctrinated in the Baptist faith since the cradle, when I began my investigation of the Bible, I read both sides pro and con -- the Summa Theologia, St. Anselm‘s works, St. Augustine’s works, the Catholic Bible, the Jewish Tanakh, the King James Bible, the Koran, and on and on -- before I finally made up my mind. I can admit my initial ignorance of the Bible and mistake but you cannot. And you once said I had blind bias. This is big for you isn't it? I mean, I think its great that you read, but you've been acting like an adolescent pulling out the ruler every morning to measure your penis. You should really chill. Its embarrassing. You need to know what I've read? I've read the entire Old Testament (most of it more than once), New Testament (several times), the Torah and the Apocryphal books (which is the only difference from the protestant Bible). I've been a part of the team that is working with newly acquired manuscripts to do textual criticism in writing the footnotes for the next edition of the Greek new testament. That was a major contributing factor in my time at New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary, btw. Outside of the Bible, I've read the book of Mormon, most of the Koran, Watchtower literature, and I am a big reader of ancient mythology. I've read extensively on the social sciences of the first century Mediterranean including everything I've found my Melina and Rourbaugh. I've read almost all the works of the early Church Fathers and I've studied the movements of Christianity throughout history. The Celtic church is my current interest. And I'm sure I've left out plenty. But really...who cares? Either your arguments are sound or they aren’t. Inmate, most of your input has not been Scottish. And if its not Scottish, its Crap! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.