bird_1972 Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 Originally posted by freakofthenorth Ramsey could be really amazing. He displayed fantastic fight last season, despite his lack of a running threat, and flawed blocking schemes. Think about this: What can Ramsey do w/: -a running threat (CP) -good protection schemes (JB) -and an effective and proven mentor (MB) Could be pretty amazing. Agreed. I can't wait to see it finally happen. :drool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba9497 Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 Originally posted by Chokingdogs they have been, every single game this year, ive seen it with my own eyes. the problem lies in the fact they are open on intermediate to deeper routes, the exact routes that brunell is "unable" to throw. i couldnt agee more with that guys piece. just curious, have you attended all four games? because TV doesn't show the entire field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freakofthesouth Posted October 7, 2004 Author Share Posted October 7, 2004 So what are we doing here, hoping Brunell gets hurt? I ceratinly don't want to jinx the guy. He is very respectable... But we all know that Gibbs will not allow any type of QB controversy...yet most of us seem to be in the saem boat here... The only way Ramsey sees the field is if Brunell gets hurt, it would seem. Is that what it will take for our offense to produce? BTW, Oldskool, I agree about the pass to CP vs. the Gmen. That was an incredible pass, and completely impossible to defend. Even the pass that Gardner dropped...went through his hands and almost hit Coles in stride. Wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cool Hand Loki Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 Freak wrote: So you think the reason we have lost is because of other players' drops, fumbles, etc. That is most likely the case... The point this article is making is that Brunell is too cautious to overcome any other player's mistakes, and that Ramsey could overcome them, w/ his gunslinger mentality But, once those mistakes diminish from the team as a whole, we could be in better shape w/ Brunell leading the team. Okay - thanks for clarifying. Maybe i'm misinterpreting the spirit of the original post, but I don't understand how inserting Ramsey into the lineup, and therefore increasing the likelihood that the Skins compound their errors, is superior to allowing Brunell to continue to lead the team and waiting for Coles, Porties, et al, to eliminate their personal mistakes. Personally, I can't wait for Ramsey to be the leader of this team. I was sitting in Giants stadium three weeks ago, and had complete confidence in him when he came trotting in. At that time, I thought we had two starting-caliber QBs. But having seen the mistakes he made in that game, I just won't feel comfortable until there's overwhelming evidence that he's as fluent in our offense as is Brunell. I was sitting at the corner of the stadium where he completed that bomb to Gardner, and I was convinced that was going to be a pick as well...perfect example of the risk-reward mentality he displays right now. Don't you get the feeling that style will lose as many games for us as it will win? My whole point is: I don't think it's acceptable to plan on the failure of the people surrounding the QB. Loser talk, if you ask me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweepea436 Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 Originally posted by bubba9497 ????? The OL gave up some sacks against the Cowboys (5) but Brunell was clean in the Tampa Game, and against the Browns (0 sacks) in fact at times Sunday Brunell had all day to find aWR. Since the TV viewer rarley gets to see the entire field it is hard to guess what is going on downfield, but my assumption is the WR and Brunell haven't developed the timing yet, and the WR aren't getting open downfield much. Fair enough (though you cut me deep in casting me off as TV viewong fodder:laugh: ) It just seems to me that he is taking on way to much pressure for a scheme touted as "MAX protect". 9 or 10 guys back to block on 4-6 rushers......he should be able to make a sandwich back there....realistically though, it just seems like there is always someone missing an assignment. I guess his lack of mobility could highlight it a bit. But in all fairness....it could be my "FOX" goggles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins26 Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 As far as the arguement of whether or not the WR's are open goes, they are not every open. But like I said before, Ramsey still gets it to them, gives them chances to make plays when they are covered and they usually do. For Brunell they have to be wide open all the time. Ramsey TD to Portis against G Men, very well defended. Ramsey's TD to Gardner right before the half of the Seahawks game last year was one of the most impressive passes i've ever seen, even from the slow motion replay I could never really get a bead on the ball or how it got in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chokingdogs Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 Originally posted by bird_1972 This week will be a litmus test. I wonder what Gibbs is thinking about this... both games up to the bye week are going to be one, a litmus test. i still think that, should the offense continue to sputter, ramsey will start after the bye. gibbs has an out with the bye week, so it wouldnt be considered a knee-jerk, he'd have a full week to mull the decision over, if it wasnt already and watch 7 games worth of film. roughly half the season over with and if they are 2 and 5, this season is all but lost with two games against the giggles coming up. itll be time for thinking about next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins26 Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 Actually I cannot remember any of Ramsey's TD passes being to wide open targets. I dont care what you saw in the preseason, that was a simple offense that nobody was going to do well in. I went to training camp like 5 times and each of those 5 I saw what I thought was Ramsey outperforming Brunell. People are forgetting just how good this kid is, he's getting some crap for nothing b/c we chose to forget with the offseason trade talks and the bad preseason performance, the images most people have in their heads of him is those last couple of games he played in where he was so hurt and the offense was so flawed he never stood a chance. If you tape the games, go back and watch the first 4 games, you will be so pumped to see this guy play. Even with guys in his face 90% of the time. MAN he is something. All the announcers and veteran QB's that were so pumped about him, like Phil Simms, and I remember one fox announcer screaming after he made a 2PC against the Giants "THIS KID IS AWESOME!" And if you want him to play an ultra conservative style he can do that. Say we were to have a game against a team that we felt we could beat if we didnt turn it over, the Ravens for example, he could do that, just tell him what you want, dont believe me? Example: Redskins vs. Patriots last year 10-22 for 147 yards 0 TD's 0 INT's 0 fumbles that game he realized we could win if we didnt turn it over, so that was the gameplan, he did enough to win without turning it over. My main point, Ramsey can do what Brunell has done if you want him to, which is play the conservative role and not turn it over. But Brunell is incapable of doing what Ramsey can do, which is pass downfield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 I'd just like to point out that I am NOT JoeSchmoe but I do admire his work. :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins26 Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 BTW- I really love the comment about how Brunell is the offensive equivalent to the prevent defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freakofthesouth Posted October 7, 2004 Author Share Posted October 7, 2004 Originally posted by Skins26 BTW- I really love the comment about how Brunell is the offensive equivalent to the prevent defense. Yeah, me too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 I'm glad that the Ramsey supporters decided to post on this thread, but didn't back me up on the Brunell=Brad Johnson thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chokingdogs Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 Originally posted by bubba9497 just curious, have you attended all four games? because TV doesn't show the entire field. no, and thats a fair question, be it asked sarcastically or not. what ive relied on are the replays, sonny's input, and friends comments that have been to the home games. they may not have been "wide open", but they have been open enough to warrant a pass attempt. it appears to me that, and this seems to be what the author of this threads post is implying, is that they arent open "enough" for marks arm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins26 Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 Originally posted by Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin I'm glad that the Ramsey supporters decided to post on this thread, but didn't back me up on the Brunell=Brad Johnson thread sorry Ghost, that arguement got started on a day when I didnt have much time, so I didnt want to jump in halfway through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweet Sassy Molassy Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 Originally posted by Skins26 Actually I cannot remember any of Ramsey's TD passes being to wide open targets. I dont care what you saw in the preseason, that was a simple offense that nobody was going to do well in. I went to training camp like 5 times and each of those 5 I saw what I thought was Ramsey outperforming Brunell. People are forgetting just how good this kid is, he's getting some crap for nothing b/c we chose to forget with the offseason trade talks and the bad preseason performance, the images most people have in their heads of him is those last couple of games he played in where he was so hurt and the offense was so flawed he never stood a chance. If you tape the games, go back and watch the first 4 games, you will be so pumped to see this guy play. Even with guys in his face 90% of the time. MAN he is something. All the announcers and veteran QB's that were so pumped about him, like Phil Simms, and I remember one fox announcer screaming after he made a 2PC against the Giants "THIS KID IS AWESOME!" And if you want him to play an ultra conservative style he can do that. Say we were to have a game against a team that we felt we could beat if we didnt turn it over, the Ravens for example, he could do that, just tell him what you want, dont believe me? Example: Redskins vs. Patriots last year 10-22 for 147 yards 0 TD's 0 INT's 0 fumbles that game he realized we could win if we didnt turn it over, so that was the gameplan, he did enough to win without turning it over. My main point, Ramsey can do what Brunell has done if you want him to, which is play the conservative role and not turn it over. But Brunell is incapable of doing what Ramsey can do, which is pass downfield. I think you make some great points Skins26. I think the other thing people forget about is Ramsey had a broken foot, that would definitely cut down some mobility. From what I've seen of Ramsey, even when he's somewhat healthy, is a guy who knows when to scramble, and has average mobility. He's no Michael Vick. I think once Ramsey learns the art of the RB/HB, TE dumpoff, he'll be scary. That's really the difference between him and Brett Farve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins11 Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 Originally posted by Skins26 And if you want him to play an ultra conservative style he can do that. Say we were to have a game against a team that we felt we could beat if we didnt turn it over, the Ravens for example, he could do that, just tell him what you want, dont believe me? Example: Redskins vs. Patriots last year 10-22 for 147 yards 0 TD's 0 INT's 0 fumbles that game he realized we could win if we didnt turn it over, so that was the gameplan, he did enough to win without turning it over. My main point, Ramsey can do what Brunell has done if you want him to, which is play the conservative role and not turn it over. But Brunell is incapable of doing what Ramsey can do, which is pass downfield. That's a good point of him playing conservative. We were in the lead the whole game, so we had to be conservative. That situation was unlike the NY giants game this year! :mad: He got pounded in the NE game last year. And he got absolutely tortured in another game where he must have lost years of his life, the one against Dallas: 16-30 for 147 yards, 2 TDs 0 INT This was against the #1 vaunted Dallas defense. The team went 4-6 last year, which should have been 5-5 since Stephen Davis did not cross the goal line.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins26 Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 Originally posted by Chokingdogs no, and thats a fair question, be it asked sarcastically or not. what ive relied on are the replays, sonny's input, and friends comments that have been to the home games. they may not have been "wide open", but they have been open enough to warrant a pass attempt. it appears to me that, and this seems to be what the author of this threads post is implying, is that they arent open "enough" for marks arm. The last paragraph is right on. Sometimes guys wont get open until the ball is almost there. Brunell decided to throw one away last game when he had Gardner in single coverage down the middle of the field. The corner was right with Gardner, but if Brunell throws that up and leads Rod a little, Rod is turned around looking for the ball and running, the CB looks back to find the ball and naturally slows up a bit, Gardner is open, TD. Not to mention that even if it was underthrown Gardner probably could have gone up over this guy and caught it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeDaSchmoe Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 Originally posted by bird_1972 If I didn't know any better, I would've thought this was Mr. McPimpin doing a cameo appearance on another site. I have to say, this is one of the most eloquent and concise reviews of the QB dillemma Washington now faces. Although I agree with most of what he says, I still think Ramsey has a tendency to get sacked way more often. That said, if he were taught (on the job) to throw away the ball when nothing is there rather than holding onto it or forcing it into triple coverage, I think he may start to gain confidence. Lets face it, Ramsey looked like a star last year until opposing teams started to blitz the crap out of him. He lead the team in 4th Q drives and showed poise and confidence. I don't have a problem having him sit behind a veteran, but not if the vet ain't getting the job done. This week will be a litmus test. I wonder what Gibbs is thinking about this... Heh, I promise that it's not written by anyone other than yours truly. Thanks for the comments, by the way. You and a few other people brought up Ramsey forcing the ball into triple coverage... I don't think anyone wants that. We'd all like to see Ramsey learn to throw the ball away a bit more often. The problem is that Brunell isn't throwing it deep against single coverage, or even when the receivers are wide open, as they were many times at the two games I've been at (I'll be at FedEx again this Sunday and I'll definitely be watching for this). By the way, just to do a little shameless advertising, the entire weekly article wasn't posted in this thread; only the part that pertained to Brunell and Ramsey was. There's still more left, so if anyone's interested, it can be found here: http://www.hailredskins.com/CupofSchmoe1.htm Again, thanks for all the good comments. I'll have to check back here in a little bit to see if anyone provokes me into a Ramsey-defending onslaught. For the moment, cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkPSkins Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 Everyone keeps harping on PR's interceptions against the g-men. Fact is, only one was really his fault. The first INT at the goal line should have never happened, as Patrick hit Gardner in the chest for a TD two plays earlier. Then he kind of short armed the ill-advised pass to the corner with a linebacker coming full speed at him. Yes it was a bad pass, but it was a pass that was laced with rust and no practice. Give him that same pass 9 more times and he either over throws the reciever or puts it where only the reciever can catch it, but it should never have even happened. The second one, the pass to Coles that looks like he threw it right into the safeties chest, was not his fault either. Coles attempted to cut back to the inside and slipped and was sort of impeded by the defender who had his back to Ramsey. Had Coles come out of his cut clean that pass would have hit him in the facemask with the defender never turning around the only thing the safety could have done was make the tackle. The third pass, well, yeah, bad decision, but you could see what he was trying to do. He had pressure, pressure that ultimately hit him as he threw. I'm sure in Patrick's mind when he threw it was to throw to the sideline where it would fall harmlessly into the camera man. Oops, it kinda slipped. We have all seen Brett Favre make that same ill-advised throw when he was trying to make something happen. It does happen. But the point was already made that nothing came of those turnovers. No points anyway. Brunnell would not have even attempted the pass to Garnder in the endzone, coverage was tight. His veteran leadership would have sailed the corner pass into the seats. Granted, no INT, but only 3 points, maybe. He definenitely would not have attempted the Coles pass as it was covered tightly as well. No INT, but if recent events would be the judge, we would have punted already as Brunnell would not have made the throws to get them to that place on the field anyway. No Brunnell would not have thrown that last pass, but then again, it served the same as the inevitable punt. Ramsey will take chances, and to me, I would rather watch that than a 3 yard pass on 3rd and 8. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweepea436 Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 The second one, the pass to Coles that looks like he threw it Ramsey will take chances, and to me, I would rather watch that than a 3 yard pass on 3rd and 8. [/b] Have to agree there, I hate seeing a pass thrown short of the first down marker on 3rd down. It's my biggest pet peeve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terpskins Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 Originally posted by MarkPSkins Everyone keeps harping on PR's interceptions against the g-men. Fact is, only one was really his fault. The first INT at the goal line should have never happened, as Patrick hit Gardner in the chest for a TD two plays earlier. Then he kind of short armed the ill-advised pass to the corner with a linebacker coming full speed at him. Yes it was a bad pass, but it was a pass that was laced with rust and no practice. Give him that same pass 9 more times and he either over throws the reciever or puts it where only the reciever can catch it, but it should never have even happened. The second one, the pass to Coles that looks like he threw it right into the safeties chest, was not his fault either. Coles attempted to cut back to the inside and slipped and was sort of impeded by the defender who had his back to Ramsey. Had Coles come out of his cut clean that pass would have hit him in the facemask with the defender never turning around the only thing the safety could have done was make the tackle. The third pass, well, yeah, bad decision, but you could see what he was trying to do. He had pressure, pressure that ultimately hit him as he threw. I'm sure in Patrick's mind when he threw it was to throw to the sideline where it would fall harmlessly into the camera man. Oops, it kinda slipped. We have all seen Brett Favre make that same ill-advised throw when he was trying to make something happen. It does happen. EXACTLY. I had posted on the subject after the game. The first interception was just a bad pass. Considering he was coming of the bench, I'm not sure how much you can fault him. Second was clearly not his fault. His receiver was unable to run the right route. The third interception was the only one I took issue with because it was a genuinely bad decision. No reason that ball needed to be thrown. But when you have a QB like Ramsey, you have to allot for a bad decision here and there. Especially since it really didn't leave us with bad field position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freakofthesouth Posted October 7, 2004 Author Share Posted October 7, 2004 Yeah everyone, Joedaschmoe is the author of this piece, and he did a great job w/ it. To be honest, I haven't really given much thought to the QB situation 'till I read this ONE; of course, that all changed when I read this. Hey...we need a little controversy!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 Here's some interesting stats for us that claim patrick has "it": 2003 Last two minutes of a half--- LAST TWO MINUTES OF HALF 38 20 52.6 272 7.16 32 3 0 12 60.0 5 4 102.1 Fourth Quarter WITHIN 7 points Att CMP PCt YDS YPA LONG TD 84 47 56.0 609 7.25 34 6 INT FD FD% 20+ Sacked RATING 1 28 59.6 10 2 97.8 That's an AMAZING clutch rating. People point to that game against the Giants and I want to punch them in the teeth. How about the 4 games where Brunell has done squat on offense, except for a bright quarter against the Boys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skins4eva Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 I'll tell you one thing: Ramsey would destroy defenses in a hurry up offense. He has trouble making throws when the defense complicates schemes, but put him in the hurry up and watch him get nasty! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freakofthesouth Posted October 7, 2004 Author Share Posted October 7, 2004 That is an amazing 'clutch rating'...good stat to point out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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