Thiebear Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 But 6+ percent are sent to other States... IN the US. and 3+ percent are sent overseas... I really don't see this as the Exxon Oil spill they make it out to be? http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=5395803 Outsourcing Causes 9 Pct. of U.S. Layoffs - Govt. Thu Jun 10, 2004 02:53 PM ET MORE By Andrea Hopkins WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The bulk of outsourced jobs never leave U.S. shores, the government said on Thursday in a new report suggesting concerns over American workers losing jobs to cheaper foreign labor may be exaggerated. Nine percent of non-seasonal U.S. layoffs in the first quarter were due to outsourcing, but less than a third of the work was sent overseas, the U.S. Labor Department said in releasing new figures on mass layoffs and outsourcing. "In more than seven out of 10 cases, the work activities were reassigned to places elsewhere in the U.S.," the Bureau of Labor Statistics said in its report on mass layoffs for the January-to-March period. Organized labor, critical of the administration's record on jobs, has promised to make outsourcing an issue in this year's presidential election. While the figures offer the first official measure of the impact of outsourcing on U.S. employment, they count only layoffs at companies where at least 50 people filed for unemployment insurance during a five-week period and the layoff lasted more than 30 days. That restriction means the figures do not capture the impact outsourcing has had on small businesses. In the first three months of the year, 4,633 U.S. workers were laid off because their jobs were moved to a foreign country, the BLS said. That represents less than 2 percent of the mass layoffs that totaled 239,361 during that period. When seasonal and vacation-related mass layoffs are excluded, the proportion of workers who lost their jobs due to overseas outsourcing rises to about 2.5 out of 100. Another 9,985 workers lost their jobs because the work moved to a different location within America, BLS said. However, the report showed outsourcing had a huge impact on whether work sites were permanently shut-down or just temporarily closed. Fifty-one percent of mass layoffs caused by outsourcing were permanent closures of the work site, compared to just 17 percent of total layoffs. A large proportion of mass layoffs in America are due to seasonal factors -- such as winter layoffs in agriculture or summer shut-downs at manufacturing plants -- and about two-thirds last less than a month. with a 5.6 rate of unemployment and for women 4.8% This should be a good time of the year.... Hourly rates are up now also. With Women leading in that area also...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wicked Wop Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 I posted a similar thread about a week ago. http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=63125 I think it basically Kerry jumped on the bandwagon trying to make something out of nothing (ie., he watched the nightly news and said "This is an outrage")......when he really didn't have the facts. Looking losing some jobs overseas is inevitable, and actually probably a good thing in the long-term as long as it is kept in check.......which appears to be the case here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted June 15, 2004 Author Share Posted June 15, 2004 oops, that whole reading is fundamental gets me every time. :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 that is interesting. With the current state of Gov't Data collecting....it'll be even more interesting if this the case in a few months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpillian Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 Or even more inconceivable Kerry did have the facts, and rode the bandwagon regardless. Not to say the Bush-camp is spotless either; in a campaign, molehills inevitably become mountains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiefhogskin48 Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 I don't think Kerry can "fight outsourcing" because that is old school protectionism. Protectionists are a dying breed in both parties (Gephardt being the most prominent and regressive). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wicked Wop Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 Chief, I think it would be a problem if the outflowing of jobs was completely left unchecked or of such an amount that it was leaving millions without jobs. The facts seem just the opposite.....which again is probably a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiefhogskin48 Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 The vast majority of jobs by their very nature can never be outsourced. Manufacturing jobs are the most easily outsourced. Service jobs are extremely hard to outsource. Off the top of my head, call centers are one of the few that can be at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thew Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 The Wicked Wop Chief, I think it would be a problem if the outflowing of jobs was completely left unchecked or of such an amount that it was leaving millions without jobs. The facts seem just the opposite.....which again is probably a good thing. Economy has been growing at an average of 3% for more than two years and yet the country is still down 1.5 million private sector jobs since Bush took office. 1 out of every 7 manufacturing jobs have disappeared under Bush. Bush is on target to be the first President since Herbert Hoover(Great Depression) to fail to have a net positive job growth in 4 years in office. Clinton created more than 11 million jobs in his first term in office and Bush has so far lost 1.5 million. The economy growing and the job base shrinking? Where are all those jobs going? It's not protectionist to say that Americans shouldn't compete with third world folks who are legally bared from demanding worker rights, healthcare, benifits, and even in some cases in China the right to seek emplyment elsewhere if they choose. Oh and don't give me that we only have 5.6% unemplyment bunk. We also have the greatest amount of workers out of work for longer than 6 months than we've had since WWII. None of whom show up in the unemployment numbers. That's why when the jobs have been trickling back over the last few months the unemployment rate has remained constant or even grown! I know folks who've lost six figure jobs and have taken up working at car dealerships and restaurants. Folks have lost their homes. This more than any other reason is why Bush will Loose his office. The majority of Americans are just not better off under him and he knows it. You guys are crazy. We've exported the entire high tech computer market to India. Where once America was #1 in computer software now it's India. 21st century six figure jobs all gone. Not through macro economic pressure either but micro economic tampering. Where once America benifited from the new 21st centurey companies sprining up by the hundreds like Microsoft, Borland, Oracle, Intel, CA, and many more. Now it will be India which benifites from our largess. Once silicon valley in San Fransico was the hub of venture capital in the world and the engine of the late 80's and 90's economic boom. Now SV has systemic unemployment and the majority of the rest of the folks working in the computer industry are now Insourced third worlders brought here as indentured H1B workers to undercut the domestic workforce and further export what few jobs we have left. Don't believe me. Go down to your local car dealership and shout out... How many of you guys used to be software engineers. Engineering graduates in America who in the early 90's were said to be in short supply are now graduating at less than 50% of what they were a decade ago when their was a shortage then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thew Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 CheifHogg I don't think Kerry can "fight outsourcing" because that is old school protectionism. Protectionists are a dying breed in both parties (Gephardt being the most prominent and regressive). Bunk. Answer this question. Why is it free trade in your eyes when Bank of America outsources 20,000 jobs from America into China/India solely for the purpose of lowing wages. But when Joe and Marry American go to Canida to buy cheap perscription drugs that's now against the law? Against the law because Bush passed a law to make it so?.... Why does free trade only benifit American corporations and not American workers under you're Neo conservative philosophy? Could it be because Geoge Bush dosn't have the junk to stand up to the Pharmisudical Industry like he does when he's standing up against the American worker? Free market places aren't free unless their is competition. The government must act to ensure competition not to destroy competition. It's anti compeditive for the government to import a million cheap indentured workers to undercut the domestic work force. It's anti compeditive to ensure those workers cannot change jobs because thier visa's are tied to their low waged jobs. It's anti compeditive to just bring in a wave ( hundreds of thousands a year, currently more than 70% of the working software engineers in the country) of legally uninfranchised workers to learn the trade and then blast them back into the third world with all the jobs in tact paying them 10% of what Americans used to earn for the same job. It's not protectionist to demand that the American government stop betraying the domestic workforce and conspiring to destroy competition in favor of big business. Without competition there is no free trade. American workers aren't afraid of competing! We just don't want to compete against our own companies, government and the foreign workers.... It's like something out of an Upton Sinclaire novel and you're trying to wrap the flag around it.. You're just saddly misinformed. Kerry in 2004, Because at least he has a clue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thew Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 The vast majority of jobs by their very nature can never be outsourced. Manufacturing jobs are the most easily outsourced. Service jobs are extremely hard to outsource. Off the top of my head, call centers are one of the few that can be at this point. HA! A lot you know. Sure manufacturing jobs are leaving. 1 out of seven have disapeered to the third world under Bush. But the Service industry jobs are the ones which are leaving now in the 21st century. Six figure jobs are going. Phd's and Engineering graduates are loosing their positions. The entire software industry, Radiologists, and accountants. There is almost no jobs sector even in the service industry that can not be outsourced in the 21st century. The service sector is loosing entire segments under Bush... Bush suggesting that outsourceing is good is bunk. Dude can't count the number of terrorist incidents in a year. Dude can't find the WMD which he said he knew where they were. Now it turns out his job creation numbers are largely imaginary and you believe him when he suggests that it's good for America when nobody can find work!... Bunk.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 Originally posted by thew Clinton created more than 11 million jobs in his first term in office It wasn't Clinton, it was big business and the internet, the government just watched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 shhhhhhh. Dont wake him from his socialist dreamworld where big govt provides for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wicked Wop Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 Thew, you keep rehashing the same points about job loss, but if you actually understood why we lost those jobs to begin with, you would start understanding that we simply could not support them.....THIS IS A FACT. These companies might be big, but that hardly means they can support thousands of people that may add little or no value to the companies bottom line....and thats the key point. If all those jobs were to be supported back home and yes I said ALL, those companies would be having financial difficulty.....plain and simple, and you can not come up with some sort of fart in the wind argument to suggest otherwise. Don't get me wrong, I wish we didn't have to lose jobs to overseas.......but the fact is we have to, in order to stay competitive. You piss and moan in every post about losing these 6 figure jobs......well most of these people shouldn't have been making 6 figures in the first place. My suggest to you is to get out of the fairy tales section of the book store, and pick up some financial books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 Originally posted by thew Clinton created more than 11 million jobs in his first term in office and Bush has so far lost 1.5 million. Another point I want to make the reason why we have lost jobs since the late 90's because about 30% of those jobs you are talking about were not needed to begin with. Companies overstaffed and had 10 people doing the same thing, they thought they had money and a business plan, but guess what they were wrong and we suffered because of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thew Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 But 6+ percent are sent to other States... IN the US. and 3+ percent are sent overseas... What bunk!!... Here is a list of the American companies outsourcing jobs to the third world... Shrinking the Job base. You explain to me how they can be shrinking their American employment and yet still be moving a net positive number of jobs to other states!.... Cluelesss..... Kerry has decided to jump on Bush with Both feat on the Jobs issues and the economy. So Bush comes out with a little all is sunshine piece and you dudes lap it up........ www.cnn.com/lou Here is a list of companies we've confirmed are "Exporting America." These are U.S. companies either sending American jobs overseas, or choosing to employ cheap overseas labor, instead of American workers. 3Com 3M A Aalfs Manufacturing Aavid Thermal Technologies ABC-NACO Accenture Access Electronics Accuride Corporation Accuride International Adaptec ADC Adobe Systems Advanced Energy Industries Aetna Affiliated Computer Services AFS Technologies A.G. Edwards Agere Systems Agilent Technologies AIG Alamo Rent A Car Albany International Corp. Albertson's Alcoa Alcoa Fujikura Allen Systems Group Alliance Semiconductor Allstate Alpha Thought Global Altria Group Amazon.com AMD Americ Disc American Dawn American Express American Greetings American Household American Management Systems American Standard American Uniform Company AMETEK AMI DODUCO Amloid Corporation Amphenol Corporation Analog Devices Anchor Glass Container ANDA Networks Anderson Electrical Products Andrew Corporation Anheuser-Busch Angelica Corporation Ansell Health Care Ansell Protective Products Anvil Knitwear AOL A.O. Smith Apple Applied Materials Ark-Les Corporation Arlee Home Fashions Art Leather Manufacturing Artex International ArvinMeritor Asco Power Technologies Ashland AstenJohnson Asyst Technologies Atchison Products, Inc. A.T. Cross Company AT&T AT&T Wireless A.T. Kearney Augusta Sportswear Authentic Fitness Corporation Automatic Data Processing Avanade Avanex Avaya Avery Dennison Azima Healthcare Services Axiohm Transaction Solutions B Bank of America Bank of New York Bank One Bard Access Systems Barnes Group Barth & Dreyfuss of California Bassett Furniture Bassler Electric Company BBi Enterprises L.P. Beacon Blankets BearingPoint Bear Stearns BEA Systems Bechtel Becton Dickinson BellSouth Bentley Systems Berdon LLP Berne Apparel Bernhardt Furniture Best Buy Beverly Enterprises Birdair, Inc. BISSELL Black & Decker Blauer Manufacturing Blue Cast Denim Bobs Candies Borden Chemical Bourns Bose Corporation Bowater BMC Software Boeing Braden Manufacturing Briggs Industries Brady Corporation Bristol-Myers Squibb Bristol Tank & Welding Co. Brocade Brooks Automation Brown Wooten Mills Inc. Buck Forkardt, Inc. Bumble Bee Burle Industries Burlington House Home Fashions Burlington Northern and Santa Fe Railway C Cadence Design Systems Camfil Farr Candle Corporation Cains Pickles Capital One Cardinal Brands Carrier Carter's Caterpillar C-COR.net Celestica Cellpoint Systems Cendant Centis, Inc. Cerner Corporation Charles Schwab ChevronTexaco The Cherry Corporation CIBER Ciena Cigna Circuit City Cirrus Logic Cisco Systems Citigroup Clear Pine Mouldings Clorox CNA Coastcast Corp. Coca-Cola Cognizant Technology Solutions Collins & Aikman Collis, Inc. Columbia House Comcast Holdings Comdial Corporation Computer Associates Computer Horizons Computer Sciences Corporation CompuServe Conectl Corporation Conseco Consolidated Metro Continental Airlines Convergys Cooper Crouse-Hinds Cooper Tire & Rubber Cooper Tools Cooper Wiring Devices Copperweld Cordis Corporation Corning Corning Cable Systems Corning Frequency Control Countrywide Financial COVAD Communications Covansys Creo Americas Cross Creek Apparel Crouzet Corporation Crown Holdings CSX Cummins Cutler-Hammer Cypress Semiconductor D Dana Corporation Daniel Woodhead Davis Wire Corp. Daws Manufacturing Dayton Superior DeCrane Aircraft Delco Remy Dell Computer DeLong Sportswear Delphi Delta Air Lines Delta Apparel Direct TV Discover DJ Orthopedics Document Sciences Corporation Dometic Corp. Donaldson Company Douglas Furniture of California Dow Chemical Dresser Dun & Bradstreet DuPont E Earthlink Eastman Kodak Eaton Corporation Edco, Inc. Editorial America eFunds Edscha Elbeco Inc. Electroglas Electronic Data Systems Electronics for Imaging Electro Technology Eli Lilly Elmer's Products E-Loan EMC Emerson Electric Emerson Power Transmission Emglo Products Engel Machinery En Pointe Technologies Equifax Ernst & Young Essilor of America Ethan Allen Evenflo Evergreen Wholesale Florist Evolving Systems Evy of California Expedia Extrasport ExxonMobil F Fairfield Manufacturing Fair Isaac Fansteel Inc. Farley's & Sathers Candy Co. Fasco Industries Fawn Industries Fayette Cotton Mill FCI USA Fedders Corporation Federal Mogul Federated Department Stores Fellowes Fender Musical Instruments Fidelity Investments Financial Techologies International Findlay Industries First American Title Insurance First Data First Index Flowserve Fluor FMC Corporation Fontaine International Ford Motor Foster Wheeler Franklin Mint Franklin Templeton Freeborders Frito Lay Fruit of the Loom G Garan Manufacturing Gateway GE Capital GE Medical Systems Gemtron Corporation General Binding Corporation General Cable Corp. General Electric General Motors Generation 2 Worldwide Genesco Georgia-Pacific Gerber Childrenswear GlobespanVirata Goldman Sachs Gold Toe Brands Goodrich Goodyear Tire & Rubber Google Graphic Controls Greenpoint Mortgage Greenwood Mills Grote Industries Grove U.S. LLC Guardian Life Insurance Guilford Mills Gulfstream Aerospace Corp. H Haggar Halliburton Hamilton Beach/Procter-Silex The Hartford Financial Services Group Harper-Wyman Company Hasbro Manufacturing Services Hawker Power Systems, Inc. Haworth Headstrong HealthAxis Hedstrom Hein-Werner Corp. Helen of Troy Helsapenn Inc. Hershey Hewitt Associates Hewlett-Packard Hoffman Enclosures, Inc. Hoffman/New Yorker The Holmes Group Home Depot Honeywell HSN Hubbell Inc. Humana Hunter Sadler Hutchinson Sealing Systems, Inc HyperTech Solutions I IBM iGate Corporation Illinois Tool Works IMI Cornelius Imperial Home Decor Group Indiana Knitwear Corp. IndyMac Bancorp Infogain Ingersoll-Rand Innodata Isogen Innova Solutions Insilco Technologies Intel InterMetro Industries International Paper Interroll Corporation Intuit Invacare Iris Graphics, Inc. Iteris Holdings, Inc. ITT Educational Services ITT Industries J Jabil Circuit Jacobs Engineering Jacuzzi Jakel, Inc. JanSport Jantzen Inc. JDS Uniphase Jockey International John Crane John Deere Johns Manville Johnson Controls Johnson & Johnson JPMorgan Chase J.R. Simplot Juniper Networks Justin Brands K KANA Software Kaiser Permanente Kanbay Kayby Mills of North Carolina Keane Kellogg Kellwood KEMET KEMET Electronics Kendall Healthcare Kenexa Kentucky Apparel Kerr-McGee Chemical KeyCorp Key Industries Key Safety Systems Key Tronic Corp. Kimberly-Clark KLA-Tencor Knight Textile Corp. Kojo Worldwide Corporation Kraft Foods K2 Inc. Kulicke and Soffa Industries Kwikset L Lancer Partnership Lander Company LaCrosse Footwear Lamb Technicon Lau Industries Lands' End Lawson Software Layne Christensen Leach International Lear Corporation Leech Tool & Die Works Lehman Brothers Levi Strauss Leviton Manufacturing Co. Lexmark International Lexstar Technologies Liebert Corporation Lifescan Lillian Vernon Linksys Linq Industrial Fabrics, Inc. Lionbridge Technologies Lionel Littelfuse LiveBridge LNP Engineering Plastics Lockheed Martin Longaberger Louisiana-Pacific Corporation Louisville Ladder Group LLC Lowe's Lucent Lund International Lyall Alabama M Madill Corporation Magma Design Automation Magnequench Magnetek Maidenform Mallinckrodt, Inc. The Manitowoc Company Manugistics Marathon Oil Maritz Mars Marshall Fields Mattel Master Lock Materials Processing, Inc. Maxim Integrated Products Maxxim Medical Maytag McDATA Corporation McKinsey & Company MeadWestvaco Mediacopy Medtronic Mellon Bank Mentor Graphics Corp. Meridian Automotive Systems Merit Abrasive Products Merrill Corporation Merrill Lynch Metasolv MetLife Micro Motion, Inc. Microsoft Midcom Inc. Midwest Electric Products Milacron Modern Plastics Technics Modine Manufacturing Moen Money's Foods Us Inc. Monona Wire Corp. Monsanto Morgan Stanley Motion Control Industries Motor Coach Industries International Motorola Mrs. Allison's Cookie Co. Mulox N Nabco Nabisco NACCO Industries National City Corporation National Electric Carbon Products National Life National Semiconductor NCR Corporation neoIT NETGEAR Network Associates Newell Rubbermaid Newell Window Furnishings New World Pasta New York Life Insurance Nice Ball Bearings Nike Nordstrom Northrop Grumman Northwest Airlines Nu Gro Technologies Nu-kote International NutraMax Products Nypro Alabama O O'Bryan Brothers Inc. Ocwen Financial Office Depot Ogden Manufacturing Oglevee, Ltd Ohio Art Ohmite Manufacturing Co. Old Forge Lamp & Shade Omniglow Corporation ON Semiconductor Orbitz Oracle OshKosh B'Gosh Otis Elevator Outsource Partners International Owens-Brigam Medical Co. Owens Corning Oxford Automotive Oxford Industries P Pacific Precision Metals Pak-Mor Manufacturing palmOne Parallax Power Components Paramount Apparel Parker-Hannifin Parsons E&C Paxar Corporation Pearson Digital Learning PeopleSoft PepsiCo Pericom Semiconductor PerkinElmer PerkinElmer Life Sciences, Inc. Perot Systems Pfaltzgraff Pfizer Phillips-Van Heusen Pinnacle West Capital Corporation Pitney Bowes Plaid Clothing Company Planar Systems Plexus Pliant Corporation PL Industries Polaroid Polymer Sealing Solutions Portal Software Portex, Inc. Portola Packaging Port Townsend Paper Corp. Power One Pratt & Whitney Price Pfister priceline.com Pridecraft Enterprises Prime Tanning Primus Telecom Procter & Gamble Progress Lighting ProQuest Providian Financial Prudential Insurance Q Quaker Oats Quadion Corporation Quantegy Quark Qwest Communications R Radio Flyer Radio Shack Rainbow Technologies Rawlings Sporting Goods Rayovac Raytheon Aircraft RCG Information Technology Red Kap Regal Rugs Respiratory Support Products Regence Group R.G. Barry Corp. Rich Products River Holding Corp. Robert Mitchell Co., Inc. Rockwell Automations Rockwell Collins Rogers Rohm & Haas Ropak Northwest RR Donnelley & Sons Rugged Sportswear Russell Corporation S S1 Corporation S & B Engineers and Constructors Sabre Safeway SAIC Sallie Mae Samsonite Samuel-Whittar, Inc. Sanford Sanmina-SCI Sapient Sara Lee Saturn Electronics & Engineering SBC Communications Schumacher Electric Scientific Atlanta Seal Glove Manufacturing Seco Manufacturing Co. SEI Investments Sequa Corporation Seton Company Sheldahl Inc. Siebel Systems Sierra Atlantic Sights Denim Systems, Inc. Signal Transformer Signet Armorlite, Inc Sikorsky Silicon Graphics SITEL Skyworks Solutions SMC Networks SML Labels SoftBrands Sola Optical USA Solectron Sonoco Products Co. Southwire Company Sovereign Bancorp Spectrum Control Spicer Driveshaft Manufacturing Springs Industries Springs Window Fashions Sprint Sprint PCS SPX Corporation Square D Standard Textile Co. Stanley Furniture Stanley Works Stant Manufacturing Starkist Seafood State Farm Insurance State Street Steelcase StorageTek StrategicPoint Investment Advisors Strattec Security Corp. STS Apparel Corporation Summitville Tiles Sun Microsystems Sunrise Medical SunTrust Banks Superior Uniform Group Supra Telecom Sure Fit SurePrep The Sutherland Group Sweetheart Cup Co. Swift Denim Sykes Enterprises Symbol Technologies Synopsys Synygy T Takata Retraint Systems Target Teccor Electronics Techalloy Company, Inc. Technotrim Tecumseh Tee Jays Manufacturing Telcordia Telect Teleflex TeleTech Telex Communications Tellabs Tenneco Automotive Teradyne Texaco Exploration and Production Texas Instruments Textron Thermal Industries Therm-O-Disc, Inc. Thomas & Betts Thomasville Furniture Thomas Saginaw Ball Screw Co. Three G's Manufacturing Co. Thrivent Financial for Lutherans Time Warner Tingley Rubber Corp. The Timken Company The Toro Company Tower Automotive Toys "R" Us Trailmobile Trailer Trans-Apparel Group TransPro Trans Union Travelocity Trend Technologies TriMas Corp. Triquint Semiconductor TriVision Partners Tropical Sportswear TRW Automotive Tumbleweed Communications Tupperware Tyco Electronics Tyco International U UCAR Carbon Company Underwriters Laboratories UniFirst Corporation Union Pacific Railroad Unison Industries Unisys United Airlines UnitedHealth Group Inc. United Online United Plastics Group United States Ceramic Tile United Technologies USAA V Valence Technology Valeo Climate Control VA Software Velvac Vertiflex Products Veritas Verizon VF Corporation Viasystems Vishay Visteon VITAL Sourcing W Wabash Alloys, L.L.C. Wabash Technologies Wachovia Bank Warnaco Washington Group International Washington Mutual WebEx WellChoice Wellman Thermal Systems Walls Industries Werner Co. West Corporation Weavexx Weyerhaeuser Whirlpool White Rodgers Williamson-Dickie Manufacturing Company Winpak Films Wolverine World Wide Woodstock Wire Works WorldCom World Kitchen Wyeth Wyman-Gordon Forgings X Xerox Xpectra Incorporated Xpitax Y Yahoo! Yarway Corporation York International Z Zenith ZettaWorks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 Thew just looking at that list I would say a majority of them are worldwide anyway, so how are we outsourcing when the companies are doing business over there from the beginning?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyDave Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 How about all of the insourcing from china, Germany, Japan and latin america? Overstaffed companies have a commmercial to help them slice and dice. Xerox which shows how to save millions by eliminating or reducing type and print jobs for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thew Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 Wicked Whop Thew, you keep rehashing the same points about job loss, but if you actually understood why we lost those jobs to begin with, you would start understanding that we simply could not support them.....THIS IS A FACT. These companies might be big, but that hardly means they can support thousands of people that may add little or no value to the companies bottom line....and thats the key point. The problem I would have with your logic is on several levels... Let me just take one in the hopes that you and your brotherine will read it and wrap your brains around it.... It's not I who ask for government intervention. It's not I who seek for the government to correct the marketplace. It is you who are argueing for the government and the beurocrates with their pointy little heads to decide what is best in the marketplace not I. It is the government which has artificially created the trend of outsourcing by artifically undercutting the domestic workforce with millions of cheap foreign workers to come here and learn their trade all the while leagally bared from participating in the free market. It is the government which you are defending that is not socially engineering for the benfit of the Americna worker but socially engineering for the benifit of the corporate bottom line. Social engineering none the less. Which is what I and you are claiming to be against!! Which is what I and you are claiming to be against!! Which is what I and you are claiming to be against!! Which is what I and you are claiming to be against!! You say software folks make too much money... They make what they make in a free market. The market decides what they make! The government coming in and granding H1B' VISA's to up to 300,000 cheap indentured engineers a year who are unable to participate in the free market is what is destroying the American software industry. The fact that our government is conspiring to suppress American engineer graduates, expell Americans from our jobs domestically, and then export the trained workers and the jobs back to India or China that is the problem is. I'm not arguing for large government you shmucks... I'm arguing for government to get the hell out of the market place... You are the ones who are trying to justify the governments tampering that is going on currently, not I. It wasn't artificial when software engineers right out of school were making more money than their folks. That was the free market. And the way the free market and conservatives would say that should be addressed is through the free market creating more engineers thus lowering wages and supressing demand. But that's not what happenned. What happenned is the government imported more than a million low priced indentured workers to suppress the market and suppress the domestic workforce. So now we have fewer american engineers graduating and those that do can't find work. Cause not even new grads are willing to work at the low wages that the government has artificially created. America is was the #1 software producer in the world. Those large salaries that American software engineers made were bestowed upon them by the marketplace. Folks who had ideas which improved efficiency and created products which sold in the Billions were worth the money... So stated the free marketplace. The tampering which you claim I'm for is just more neo conservative mis-direction! Look at my left hand while my new right hand is stealing you blind.... Until you folks who claim to be conservative wake up and understand that Neo conservatism isn't conservatism at all. It's not about free markets or free trade but rather engineering an environment where short sited leaders can steel us blind the better we will all be. Smaller less obtrusive government... Not a government so large to give us everything we want and take everything we have!! I'm going to go off and cool down now.... Freaking pissed.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 I agree, let's get the Govt out of the business of business. Start with eliminating unions. Then go to the minimum wage. Then get rid of OSHA........ oh wait, you didnt really mean that did you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thew Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 Killmer I agree, let's get the Govt out of the business of business. Start with eliminating unions. Then go to the minimum wage. Then get rid of OSHA........ oh wait, you didnt really mean that did you? Oh wait, I didn't realize that Unions were government workers. Oh that's right they're not. minimum wage and OSHA.. hell why don't you just go down to Mexico and the workers down their don't have a minimum wage or OSHA.. but that's not the argument is it.... You don't want less government involvement as conservatives do. You argue for more!... just you want the government working on your side instead of working for yourself. Totally un conservative and un Reagan..... Just like Bush, Short sited, Socialism is good as long as I'm in charge... It's just a bogus concept. That's why conservitives aren't supporting Reagain in 2004. Because selling out to big business isn't the same as creating a free market. Free market is a balance and balance is good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 ou don't want less government involvement as conservatives do. You argue for more! really? when did I do that? The point thew is that you dont want Govt out of the business of business. You just want to be able dictate when where and how they get involved. That's classic Socialism. Im all for complete deregulation of everything. Let's see what a true free market brings. It would be a disaster, but at least it would prove the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thew Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 Navy Dave How about all of the insourcing from china, Germany, Japan and latin america? Yeah like honda's, mercedis and bmw's being built in Georgia, Alabama, and North Carolina. All the result of trade negotiations many of which were done by Ronald Reagan. Trade negotiations and enforcement of trade agreements!! Government has a role. This is the difference between conservatives and libertarians. Conservatives believe government has a role. That role is to ensure a free marketplace. Libertarians believe that either the free market place can take care of itself and monopolies are not sustainable; or they believe monopolies are irrelivent to the free market. Yes I'm a conservative and believe as Ronald Reagan did that the free market place must be persurved and protected especially in this modern day when Trusts once again threaten to control our media and other key industries.... I am not a libertarian, because I do believe it is possible that one man, one company can obtain enough power through back room dealings to eclipse economic forces and subvert the free market. Free market must be protected. Which isn't what Bush is about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wicked Wop Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 Thew, I mean it, seek help fast, I'm not sure what your one, but it is something that is remarkably potent. Obviously from your post, it appears you feel the destruction of US high tech jobs is the governments fault, I guess you assume that GW came in and said "I don't like computer geeks in our country, lets ship these jobs to India, and by the way don't mess with Texas". I'll bring it up again.....I worked for a high tech company during the high tech rise and fall and saw the whole thing clearly. GW didn't keep our company from having enough sales to support our staff. He didn't come up with regulations that hurt high tech firms. The whole period was about smoke and mirrors. Everyone tring to be the next Mircosoft, and no one doing due dilligence. Free money was being thrown around, firms were catching it and doing exactly what the venture capitalist told them.......hire more people, get some market share, and go public. Everyone of the firms that were in similar businesses were doing the exact same thing, regardless of PERFORMANCE. And this is the key factor here.....performance. Companies learned from this.......realizing you can't overpay everyone, especially when they are not adding anything to the bottom line. A benefit of this was that firms needed high tech people, and with a shortage of personnel, they paid premium dollars to get those people. Now here is something I learned in Economics 101, when there is a shortage of something.......getting it usually involves paying a premium. Now guess what, there is a surplus of trained personnel because everyone jumped on the same bandwagon and tried to cash in. Who's fault is this, the government? This generally happens in any industry. If this pisses you off, then I suggest you write congress asking them to cap a basement to all high tech employees base pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thew Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 Wicked Whop I'll bring it up again.....I worked for a high tech company during the high tech rise and fall and saw the whole thing clearly. GW didn't keep our company from having enough sales to support our staff. He didn't come up with regulations that hurt high tech firms. The whole period was about smoke and mirrors. Everyone tring to be the next Mircosoft, and no one doing due dilligence. Free money was being thrown around, firms were catching it and doing exactly what the venture capitalist told them.......hire more people, get some market share, and go public. Everyone of the firms that were in similar businesses were doing the exact same thing, regardless of PERFORMANCE. And this is the key factor here.....performance. Companies learned from this.......realizing you can't overpay everyone, especially when they are not adding anything to the bottom line. I don't disagree with you about the dot com bust. What I disagree with you is when you myopically equate your personal experience and the dot com buble with the entire computer industry. We live in the information age; and have for almost two decades. Computers run everything from the cartons of milk on your grocers shelves, to the airline reservation system, to the FED Ex sorting system in Memphis. Computers are responsible for the unpresidented increase in productivity which continues to fuel our economy while keeping interest rates low and inflation lower. I'm not gripping about the dot com bust. Most of those companies and the jobs went to dust not to india. what I'm talking about is the American Computer industry which was at the basis of the 80's and 90's economy behing wholesale exported. Cheap labor and increased corporate profits at the cost of the American economy and tax base aren't good enough reeasons for George to hide behind.... A benefit of this was that firms needed high tech people, and with a shortage of personnel, they paid premium dollars to get those people. Now here is something I learned in Economics 101, when there is a shortage of something.......getting it usually involves paying a premium. Now guess what, there is a surplus of trained personnel because everyone jumped on the same bandwagon and tried to cash in. Who's fault is this, the government? This generally happens in any industry. If this pisses you off, then I suggest you write congress asking them to cap a basement to all high tech employees base pay. America is producing half of the engineers that we were a decade ago. and a decade ago we were producing half the engineers we were from the 1980's. The fact that the majority of american engineering majors don't work in the field isn't because we have enough domestic engineers. It's a direct result of the cheap low priced foreign workers imported by our government by the hundreds of thousands a year to undercut and displace our domestic work force. Yes this is social engineering and it's what you are defending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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