More POW fallout...

[codeorama]

Red Cross Report Describes Abuse in Iraq

1 minute ago

By ALEXANDER G. HIGGINS, Associated Press Writer

GENEVA - A Red Cross report disclosed Monday said coalition intelligence officers estimated that 70-90 percent of Iraqi detainees were arrested by mistake and said Red Cross observers witnessed U.S. officers mistreating Abu Ghraib prisoners by keeping them naked in total darkness in empty cells.

The report by the International Committee of the Red Cross supports its allegations that abuse of Iraqi prisoners by American soldiers was broad and "not individual acts" — contrary to President Bush (news - web sites)'s contention that the mistreatment "was the wrongdoing of a few."

"ICRC delegates directly witnessed and documented a variety of methods used to secure the cooperation of the persons deprived of their liberty with their interrogators," according to the confidential report.

The delegates saw in October how detainees at Abu Ghraib were kept "completely naked in totally empty concrete cells and in total darkness," the report said.

"Upon witnessing such cases, the ICRC interrupted its visits and requested an explanation from the authorities," the report said. "The military intelligence officer in charge of the interrogation explained that this practice was 'part of the process.'"

This apparently meant that detainees were progressively given clothing, bedding, lighting and other items in exchange for cooperation, it said.

It said it found evidence supporting prisoners' allegations of other forms of abuse during arrest, initial detention and interrogation.

Among the evidence were burns, bruises and other injuries consistent with the abuse that prisoners alleged, it said.

The 24-page document, confirmed by the ICRC as authentic after it was published Monday by the Wall Street Journal, said the abuses were primarily during the interrogation stage by military intelligence.

Once the detainees were moved to regular prison facilities, the abuses typically stopped, it said.

The report cites abuses — some "tantamount to torture" — including brutality, hooding, humiliation and threats of "imminent execution."

"These methods of physical and psychological coercion were used by the military intelligence in a systematic way to gain confessions and extract information and other forms of cooperation from person who had been arrested in connection with suspected security offenses or deemed to have an 'intelligence value.'"

The agency said arrests allegedly tended to follow a pattern.

"Arresting authorities entered houses usually after dark, breaking down doors, waking up residents roughly, yelling orders, forcing family members into one room under military guard while searching the rest of the house and further breaking doors, cabinets and other property," the report said.

"Sometimes they arrested all adult males present in a house, including elderly, handicapped or sick people," it said. "Treatment often included pushing people around, insulting, taking aim with rifles, punching and kicking and striking with rifles."

It said some coalition military intelligence officers estimated "between 70 percent and 90 percent of the persons deprived of their liberty in Iraq (news - web sites) had been arrested by mistake. They also attributed the brutality of some arrests to the lack of proper supervision of battle group units."

Pierre Kraehenbuehl, ICRC director of operations, said Friday the report had been given to U.S. officials in February, but it only summarized what the agency had been telling U.S. officials in detail between March and November 2003 "either in direct face-to-face conversations or in written interventions."

Kraehenbuehl said the abuse of prisoners represented more than isolated acts, and that the problems were not limited to Abu Ghraib.

"We were dealing here with a broad pattern, not individual acts. There was a pattern and a system," he said, declining to give further details.

The report described how male prisoners were forced to parade around in women's underwear.

It said that information obtained "suggested the use of ill-treatment against persons deprived of their liberty went beyond exceptional cases and might be considered a practice tolerated by" coalition forces.

Kraehenbuehl said the ICRC regretted the publication and said it would have preferred sticking to its policy of confidential discussions with coalition authorities because the United States had been making progress toward meeting its demands.

ICRC chief spokeswoman Antonella Notari declined to discuss the full report.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040510/ap_on_re_eu/red_cross_prisoner_abuse&cid=518&ncid=716

[Ghost of]

While the homoerotic and sadomasochistic imagery is disturbing, I don't equate keeping detainees naked or hooded with torture or abuse.

If these were standard POWs that were to be held until the war was over, then there'd be a reason to merely warehouse them and wait it out.

But when you are interrogating suspected terrorists and attempting to save lives, then hooding or having prisoners be naked does not correspond to an outrage, IMO.

It's pretty clear that there was no discipline, in behavior or in conduct of interrogations at Abu Ghraib. Even journals kept my some of the guards indicates lax discipline and a frivolous approach to a very serious task.

[codeorama]

I agree, I don't consider the naked in a dark room part torture.

It's the other stuff that is bothersome. If it's as widespread as the red cross is saying, there could be more fallout.

[webnarc]

Originally posted by codeorama

Red Cross Report Describes Abuse in Iraq

GENEVA - A Red Cross report disclosed Monday said coalition intelligence officers estimated that 70-90 percent of Iraqi detainees were arrested by mistake and said Red Cross observers witnessed U.S. officers mistreating Abu Ghraib prisoners by keeping them naked in total darkness in empty cells.

Well, at least they got 10 - 30 percent of the ones that deserved to be tortured, err, interrogated.

[Ghost of]

There's one element that people are forgetting:

This stuff makes Guantanamo look like a damn paradise.

In fact, anyone read the stories from Guantanamo, and I mean NOT something from the UK Guardian?

Prisoners masturbating while looking at guards, throwing semen, piss and feces at them, putting toothpaste up their rectum?!?!?!

Bizarre stuff.

Sadly, I'd like to do a little digging on the International Red Cross. It seems most International orgs these days have taken a decidedly hostile stance towards the US, all out of proportion to reality or to the level of 'sin.'

Maybe the Red Cross would like to go to North Korea to check on the quarter of the population in prison/slave camps--oops, can't do that.

Or maybe they can check on foreign hostages in the hands of "insurgent groups." Oops. Can't do that.

Whatever the findings, I'm happy that at least our side opens itself up for criticism and observation.

[chomerics]

Originally posted by Ghost of Joe Bibbs

While the homoerotic and sadomasochistic imagery is disturbing, I don't equate keeping detainees naked or hooded with torture or abuse.

If these were standard POWs that were to be held until the war was over, then there'd be a reason to merely warehouse them and wait it out.

But when you are interrogating suspected terrorists and attempting to save lives, then hooding or having prisoners be naked does not correspond to an outrage, IMO.

It's pretty clear that there was no discipline, in behavior or in conduct of interrogations at Abu Ghraib. Even journals kept my some of the guards indicates lax discipline and a frivolous approach to a very serious task.

Ghost, I agree with you on this one. The psychological interrogation methods are a tactic that has often proven to be successful, but the fine line was crossed which delved into physical abuse. This is directly due to a lack of discipline, which crossed over to sadomasochist behaviors pantamount to torture, rape and murder.

We were thin at the realms, and we lacked the leadership to put a stop to this type of behavior. I am not necessarily blaiming Rumsfeld for these actions, but it was because of his removal of the Geneva Convention treatment to prisoners that allowed this to go on.

There is definately a code of ethics we should follow, even at a time of war. There is a right and a wrong way to go about our business, and this was definately the wrong way. The interrogators and prison command should have put a stop to the atrocities that were going on, and they failed to do so.

The utterly abhoric symbolism of the picture of the man standing on the box, although in it's own is not as brutal, will thwart any type of effort we have to promote peace and stability in the reigon. This was a prision where SH was known to torutre, humilate and murder Iraqis, and now were are found to be doing the same thing. It's a sad day for America indeed.

[@DCGoldPants]

how dumb are the people who smiled for the camera? I know the popular thing now is to say they weren't trained to deal with these situations....but man....how DUMB. That one woman who's been saying she was ordered to do that stuff. They all better get their stories straight.

Don't these people realize that its a totally different culture? Even if they wanted to get rid of Saddam,.....that doesn't mean their values are totally different from what was going on over there. Anybody stop to think the image that creates to people who still have a hard time letting women dress the way they want?

Regardless of what we think and want.....this is the type of stuff that turns those who wanted the U.S. to come and save them...to those who wants us the hell out of there, yesterday. Those who were tortured and/or humiliated and let go are the guys who will teach their children to hate the west....and will be the next generation of terrorists.

people say "well, what about when they dragged our dead through the streets?"

you know what? We're supposed to be better than that.

[Ghost of]

Bufford

Of note is that the woman holding the leash wasn't even stationed at that prison but was just visiting her boyfriend!

Can this turn people against us? Yes. But if you read some Iraqi blogs, there is a level of understanding with many Iraqis that is NOT there with many Anti-American leftists.

Also, one of the guys who said he was abused(though I don't know if he was in one of the photos) said that he was upset but in the same breath mentioned he would love to come to the US, Miami specifically.

And considering what many Iraqis were used to under Saddam, they may be outraged yet know at the back of their mind that whatever was done was pretty tame.

[webnarc]

Originally posted by Ghost of Joe Bibbs

There's one element that people are forgetting:

This stuff makes Guantanamo look like a damn paradise.

In fact, anyone read the stories from Guantanamo, and I mean NOT something from the UK Guardian?

Prisoners masturbating while looking at guards, throwing semen, piss and feces at them, putting toothpaste up their rectum?!?!?!

Bizarre stuff.

Sadly, I'd like to do a little digging on the International Red Cross. It seems most International orgs these days have taken a decidedly hostile stance towards the US, all out of proportion to reality or to the level of 'sin.'

Maybe the Red Cross would like to go to North Korea to check on the quarter of the population in prison/slave camps--oops, can't do that.

Or maybe they can check on foreign hostages in the hands of "insurgent groups." Oops. Can't do that.

Whatever the findings, I'm happy that at least our side opens itself up for criticism and observation.

Two elements you seem to be forgetting Ghost:

1) Up to 90% of the people in the prison did nothing wrong, they were innocent but were made to endure these hardships or witness these hardships. Innocent people who were mistakenly identified as terrorist / insurgents / people of interest and abused because of it.

2) When a group like the Red Cross says something anti-abuse, which in this case translates into something that is regarded by many to be anti-coalition, you should repress the first instinct to discredit the group - the same group that is often first on the scene after a great plains flood, a devastating hurricane or a tornado touching down in a trailer park somewhere in America.

You've seen the pictures, the stuff did happen, why begin a smear campaign against the Red Cross?

To say that at least we let people see what we are doing makes you exactly the same as those who don't let people see because you're still doing it.

[Ghost of]

Originally posted by webnarc

You've seen the pictures, the stuff did happen, why begin a smear campaign against the Red Cross?

To say that at least we let people see what we are doing makes you exactly the same as those who don't let people see because you're still doing it.

1) So because an international org relates hearsay about a statistic(the 70-90 percent) that means it's ironclad?

Come now, let us at least wait for more information. I've heard the reverse--that 30 percent were probably mistaken arrests. Let us wait a bit to write a number in stone.

2) Red Cross--the same one that misused money given for 9/11 victims and for New York? Also, understand that the Red Cross here in the US is a different operation than the international red cross. The international red cross is NOT first on the scene here in the US.

I am not running a smear campaign to discredit them, only wondering if what I recall is correct. The stances that different organizations take on the issues is VERY important to understanding their reports. I thought that would be self-evident.

Just because there are pics from one prison doesn't render all complaints and allegations true.

And what was the last part about me saying that we are open making me like the people who ...what? restate that please.

[@DCGoldPants]

Originally posted by Ghost of Joe Bibbs

Bufford

Of note is that the woman holding the leash wasn't even stationed at that prison but was just visiting her boyfriend!

Can this turn people against us? Yes. But if you read some Iraqi blogs, there is a level of understanding with many Iraqis that is NOT there with many Anti-American leftists.

Also, one of the guys who said he was abused(though I don't know if he was in one of the photos) said that he was upset but in the same breath mentioned he would love to come to the US, Miami specifically.

And considering what many Iraqis were used to under Saddam, they may be outraged yet know at the back of their mind that whatever was done was pretty tame.

that's only a few photo's from what's turning into hundreds if not thousands. The voice of that person who wants to come to Miami is so quiet compared to the people outside the prison who are chanting anti-US stuff every day. The picture I'm thinking of was of a female soldier because she made statements about being ordered to do such. You're thinking of somebody else.

Its going to get worse before it gets better.

[codeorama]

I posted another article the other day, evidently, Rumsfield himself testified to congress that the worst hasn't been seen.

[Ghost of]

I was just mentioning that woman as an example that it wasn't merely a unit's lack of discipline but also strange behavior on the part of a visitor.

As for thousands of pictures, many of these stills are from a video, if I'm not mistaken. I imagine there will be more.

As for people chanting anti-US stuff, I would expect no different. But the crowds don't seem overly hostile and many of them are holding up signs of questionable origin(in terms of being original as opposed to perhaps being aided by human shield leftovers)

And I'm familiar with that female prisoner of which you speak. I don't really buy that she was ordered to do anything other than maybe keep people hooded and naked.

The guys in the "pyramid" photo and others were accused of raping a 15 year old detainee. I don't condone it, but such acts make a slight bit of sense(the calling detainees gay and putting them in gay positions) or more than it did at first.

[Ghost of]

Originally posted by codeorama

I posted another article the other day, evidently, Rumsfield himself testified to congress that the worst hasn't been seen.

There is a dead body that was photographed.

I know that one soldier was already stripped of his rank and thrown out of the service for the death of a detainee. And a contractor(not sure if he was American or merely hired for interrogation) killed another detainee.

It would be nice if all people could be perfect, but unfortunately, these things ARE going to happen.

It's a sad fact. We had guys in KFOR, of all nationalities, involved in some horrible **** in Kosovo. Same in Bosnia.

Though an army can provide security, the presence of an army and the tension of conflict set up a real interesting cultural dynamic that equates to something damn-near anarchy. The basest passions are indulged, the darkest horrors unleashed.

That's not taking it lightly. That's just a statement of fact. I just wish there could have been more discipline at that prison because frankly, there are bigger stories right now.

[@DCGoldPants]

fair enough.

I guess all we can do is wait and see. I imagine that this is a lot more widespread than people think....and knowledge of these events are going to go up very high in the ranks before its all over. Perhaps they weren't directly ordered to do so....but there are going to be a lot of people coming to say that behavior wasn't a secret and was accepted by their higher-up's.

[codeorama]

Originally posted by Bufford 3.0

....but there are going to be a lot of people coming to say that behavior wasn't a secret and was accepted by their higher-up's.

That's the scary part.

None of this really shocked me at first because with human nature, you would expect isolated incidents, but if the Red Cross report is true, that's a lot different.

[chomerics]

Originally posted by Ghost of Joe Bibbs

Bufford

Can this turn people against us? Yes. But if you read some Iraqi blogs, there is a level of understanding with many Iraqis that is NOT there with many Anti-American leftists.

And considering what many Iraqis were used to under Saddam, they may be outraged yet know at the back of their mind that whatever was done was pretty tame.

This is the most amazing thing about the whole abuse scandal which just shows how deprived these people really were. Americans (and it's not just lefty's ghost) are generally apalled at this abhorent behavior. We are both sickened and disgusted that our people would commit such atrocities against humankind, it demoralizes us as a nation. Iraqis, on the other hand, aren't nearly as sickened and upset at these allegations and pictures. It's more of a way of life for them, they've lived through it under Saddam, and they're living throught it with US.

This doesn't diminish the fact that it was wrong on so many levels and CAN NOT be tolerated. Punishment has to be swift and severe for those involved, this will show Iraqis what a free world is all about. They still need to get used to a free system, and it's not something that will happen overnight. They have to find a way to rid themselves of the hatred and violence that's been rotting at their society for the past 1000 years.

Are we the ones to do this? I don't think we have a choice now, but our actions must speak louder than the saddist pictures being passed around.

[Ghost of]

Originally posted by Bufford 3.0

fair enough.

I guess all we can do is wait and see. I imagine that this is a lot more widespread than people think....and knowledge of these events are going to go up very high in the ranks before its all over. Perhaps they weren't directly ordered to do so....but there are going to be a lot of people coming to say that behavior wasn't a secret and was accepted by their higher-up's.

Well, I know there's Karpinski, the woman general who kept complaining about lack of manpower or something. She is going to be held accountable. It would have been nice if real interrogators had been present and consistently applied standards in place, but she is still responsible for the men and women under her command.

How many other high-ranking commanders accepted this conduct? I don't want to speculate.

And I feel it is necessary for us to separate the hooded/naked thing from the other allegations.

I think we'll find that the alleged abuse is actually not that widespread. The Guantanamo joke pretty much solidified in my mind, that once international(and domestic) partisans are brought into the fray, that the allegations will multiply and the charges will become more absurd. Many murders and other acts committed by Iraqis against Iraqis have been blamed on Americans(like an honor-killing) and other strange, almost blood-libelous charges have been made.

It will take time to sort through them, verify the accurate claims and then determine the actual frequency of abuse and the nature of policies regarding prisoner treatment.

[Ghost of]

Originally posted by chomerics

This is the most amazing thing about the whole abuse scandal which just shows how deprived these people really were. Americans (and it's not just lefty's ghost) are generally apalled at this abhorent behavior. We are both sickened and disgusted that our people would commit such atrocities against humankind, it demoralizes us as a nation. Iraqis, on the other hand, aren't nearly as sickened and upset at these allegations and pictures. It's more of a way of life for them, they've lived through it under Saddam, and they're living throught it with US.

This doesn't diminish the fact that it was wrong on so many levels and CAN NOT be tolerated. Punishment has to be swift and severe for those involved, this will show Iraqis what a free world is all about. They still need to get used to a free system, and it's not something that will happen overnight. They have to find a way to rid themselves of the hatred and violence that's been rotting at their society for the past 1000 years.

Are we the ones to do this? I don't think we have a choice now, but our actions must speak louder than the saddist pictures being passed around.

Chomerics

I have never ONCE said only lefties were appalled. In fact, to say so would be to make a stunning charge against many of those on my side of the spectrum. I am disgusted by it too, but I also view it through a larger perspective, one that cannot easily be tossed aside.

Realize this, many terrible things have happened and been done by even Americans(and allies) in just about every war--from Andersonville to Abu Ghraib. What is important is how we deal with such conduct, how much we try to prevent it and address it.

In comparison to many of the previous wars, the abuse depicted in the photos and even the alleged abuses not yet seen is minor. VERY minor.

Again, there is a distinct difference from anger at an American disgracing their uniform and hurting our cause and taking a story and running with it to do real damage to the cause.

South Korea, today, is a free nation(basically.) Yet Americans and UN nations involved in the Korean War likely often committed atrocities or at least, "illegal" acts. That doesn't render the greater cause morally null and void.

Again, when KFOR troops videotaped a rape in Kosovo, I didn't hear a peep. There only seem to be calls for accountability and public harping on the issue if a certain type of administration is in charge.

[OURYEAR#56]

Originally posted by codeorama

I posted another article the other day, evidently, Rumsfield himself testified to congress that the worst hasn't been seen.

I heard the same thing. It was reported on the cover of the Connecticut Post on Sunday. I gringe at the thought that the worst is yet to come. But I feel that this attitude is sponsored by this administration. Let me explain. This administartion has gone to great length to dicredit the people in both Iraq and Afghanistan. He's labeled them as evil, and savages. It's easy for people to abuse other people when they can dehumanize them. This administration has endorsed ill feeling towards the people of these countries. I understand that we are suppose to target terrorsit states, but not the peope. EIther way you cut it, no body can condone these actions. I see some people just looking at it as "whatever", but these are disturbing scenes. Posing with naked men, people dying, and being raped. What the f*ck.

[Thiebear]

I think Ghost represents what i was going to say....

There is nothing to date that states murders or rapes that were overlooked... if so they need to be dealt with quickly...

All American prisoners were executed but ONE:

(and the outrage in and out of the United States was deafening with its silence).....

Michael Graham just said: I would gladly sacrifice these 12 soldiers to win this war... ( I agree) as long as its correctly done.

he also said:

We ask soldiers to hold this hill while we go get supplies: Expect a 90% death rate (and they do it).... no will we expect these 12 to do the same?

[webnarc]

Originally posted by Ghost of Joe Bibbs

1) So because an international org relates hearsay about a statistic(the 70-90 percent) that means it's ironclad?

Come now, let us at least wait for more information. I've heard the reverse--that 30 percent were probably mistaken arrests. Let us wait a bit to write a number in stone.

2) Red Cross--the same one that misused money given for 9/11 victims and for New York? Also, understand that the Red Cross here in the US is a different operation than the international red cross. The international red cross is NOT first on the scene here in the US.

I am not running a smear campaign to discredit them, only wondering if what I recall is correct. The stances that different organizations take on the issues is VERY important to understanding their reports. I thought that would be self-evident.

Just because there are pics from one prison doesn't render all complaints and allegations true.

And what was the last part about me saying that we are open making me like the people who ...what? restate that please.

Okay Ghost, say only 30% of the prisoners were innocent. Do you stand for the abuse of innocent people?

I'm suggesting that people do something different during that moment between the stimulus and response, break with the ordinary and the automatic, and consider that abuse HAS occurred.

The final line of my last post, peeing on someone who is unwilling for example, either publicly or privately, is abuse. The fact that the Red Cross knows about it does not make it less abusive. That is all the line means.

[Ghost of]

Originally posted by webnarc

Okay Ghost, say only 30% of the prisoners were innocent. Do you stand for the abuse of innocent people?

I'm suggesting that people do something different during that moment between the stimulus and response, break with the ordinary and the automatic, and consider that abuse HAS occurred.

The final line of my last post, peeing on someone who is unwilling for example, either publicly or privately, is abuse. The fact that the Red Cross knows about it does not make it less abusive. That is all the line means.

Who here said abuse hasn't occurred? I never did.

I only questioned numbers, as I've heard the reverse and I will maintain skepticism. I've learned to do it because it's served me well when all the facts are learned.

Peeing on someone isn't good. I think we got that. And yes, because the Red Cross knows about it doesn't make it less of an abuse.

I guess I'm trying to figure out what the hell we're supposed to do?

I've said repeatedly that the offenders need to be punished and that commanding officers need to face sanctions as well. I also think it would be nice if measures were taken to prevent future occurrences.

But beyond that, what are we supposed to do?

Scourge ourselves while walking and wailing down the street? Disarm our troops in Iraq? Pay reparations for freeing a country from an evil dictator?

What the story reveals is the depth of self-hatred(or hatred of America or the West) that many possess and what levels of glee and obsession they are willing to demonstrate in confirmation of such.

Deal with it, move on.

What is worse to me, is that when a major news org has the opportunity to act in a principled way or report the real truth in Iraq, it decided to act in concert with Hussein.

Think of all THOSE pictures that did not get out.

Proportionality, folks. That's all I'm saying.

I'd like to hear 24-7 coverage of Sudan, personally, but then many would not like the angles involved in that story.

[Baculus]

The question I want to pose, is, if these were American soldiers being treated in this way, would you consider it torture, would you be outraged, and would you shrug if off as merely being "benign interrogation techniques"?

And this WAS torture - torture does not ony have to be physical, but also mental as well. One definition of Torture:

Torture - torment, emotionally or mentally"

Probably part of the issue is that we have no idea of the foks being tortured are really innocent or guilty. They haven't been charged, gone through any sort of legal process, and haven't even fallen under the Geneva Convention. Some folks merely assume that these are the "bad guys," so they deserve everything they get. Do we really know that? Do we really? As evident by the release of some folks from Camp X-ray, some of the people that have been rounded up and placed into camps have not been guilty.

And no, I realize the situation we are in, but that does not mean we have to become un-American when we are supposedly attempting to bring "Americanism" to these countries.

[Ghost of]

Originally posted by Baculus

The question I want to pose, is, if these were American soldiers being treated in this way, would you consider it torture, would you be outraged, and would you shrug if off as merely being "benign interrogation techniques"?

And this WAS torture - torture does not ony have to be physical, but also mental as well. One definition of Torture:

Torture - torment, emotionally or mentally"

Probably part of the issue is that we have no idea of the foks being tortured are really innocent or guilty. They haven't been charged, gone through any sort of legal process, and haven't even fallen under the Geneva Convention. Some folks merely assume that these are the "bad guys," so they deserve everything they get. Do we really know that? Do we really? As evident by the release of some folks from Camp X-ray, some of the people that have been rounded up and placed into camps have not been guilty.

And no, I realize the situation we are in, but that does not mean we have to become un-American when we are supposedly attempting to bring "Americanism" to these countries.

You touch on a specific issue and that is the definition of torture. Sorry, I don't care about sleep deprivation, use of lights, being hooded, etc. That's just what you do.

IN FACT, mental "torture" is more effective than physical torture. I think it's also something of a joke to compare sleep deprivation or being hooded with rape, slicing, other forms of mutiliation, thumbscrews, etc.

As for Camp X-Ray, why not mention those released who went RIGHT back to their terrorist buddies? It swings both ways. Also, you neglect that many of those detained were released because they were of no further use, NOT that they were just innocent bystanders(though, I'm certain a few were)

As for your first question, I fully expect that American troops would be hooded--the Italian that was EXECUTED(where's the outrage?) was hooded. I also expect them to be rouged up a bit. I would not be particularly outraged by sleep deprivation or things like that because I am not a hypocrite.

Another thing to keep in mind that in war, you are murdering other human beings--call it killing, self-defense, etc, but that is what you are doing. One could argue, absurdly, that killing is "un-American" and thus we can't engage in it. But that would be a joke.