More Dead In Iraq

[Ancalagon the Black]

Hmm...perhaps a distillation of the good points might be in order. It was hard to get past the claim that two atomic bombs had been dropped on Japan after Hiroshima (does this guy have an editor?), and I couldn't really draw anything of substance from the rest of it. The point seems to be that liberals want us to lose the war, and they want to be afraid all the time. It really makes no sense, unless you're so far gone politically that you think the other side is pure evil for evil's sake.

[Phat Hog]

It's Friday, and I'm off... perhaps on Monday...

Only distilling I’m worried about right now are distilled spirits.

[Ghost of]

Originally posted by Ancalagon the Black

Hmm...perhaps a distillation of the good points might be in order. It was hard to get past the claim that two atomic bombs had been dropped on Japan after Hiroshima (does this guy have an editor?), and I couldn't really draw anything of substance from the rest of it. The point seems to be that liberals want us to lose the war, and they want to be afraid all the time. It really makes no sense, unless you're so far gone politically that you think the other side is pure evil for evil's sake.

For the sake of accuracy, I think I should state that Tammy Bruce is a lesbian, former head of a major NOW organization and still claims to be a Democrat.

I think her politics overall, fall more in line with yours, Ancal, if you can believe that.

That said, while I've loved some of her work in the past, I cannot bring myself to agree with this one.

My plan would be to match the video and pics to individuals, kill them, take each one of their limbs and their head and then place them on pikes around the town. Make it clear in large signs that this punishment is for the desecration of dead human beings, not for the mere presence of resistance in the town.

Make sure to cover the pike with a flammmable liquid and then set it on fire after a few days, do this at night.

Call it terrible, but revenge has its place.

The Russians killed relatives of terrorists that had murdered some Russians and stuffed their genitals in their mouths and left them where they could be found. No one really messed with them again. This was way back, though, during the Cold War.

[kameuh]

10 U.S. Troops Killed in Iraqi Violence

Email this Story

Apr 4, 6:07 PM (ET)

By KHALID MOHAMMED

(AP) A demonstrator tries to contain the crowds during an anti-American protest in Baghdad, Iraq, Sunday...

Full Image

NAJAF, Iraq (AP) - Supporters of an anti-American cleric rioted in four Iraqi cities Sunday, killing eight U.S. troops and one Salvadoran soldier in the worst unrest since the spasm of looting and arson immediately after the fall of Saddam Hussein.

The U.S. military on Sunday reported two Marines were killed in a separate "enemy action" in Anbar province, raising the toll of American service members killed in Iraq to at least 610.

The rioters were supporters of anti-American cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. They were angry over Saturday's arrest on murder charges of one of al-Sadr's aides, Mustafa al-Yacoubi, and the closure of a pro-al-Sadr newspaper.

Near the holy city of Najaf, a gunbattle at a Spanish garrison killed at least 22 people, including two coalition soldiers - an American and a Salvadoran.

(AP) Supporters of al-Sadr's self-styled militia, the al-Mahdi Army, walk towards Kufa, Iraq, Sunday...

Full Image

Fighting in the Baghdad neighborhood of Sadr City killed seven U.S. soldiers and wounded at least 24, the U.S. military said in a written statement.

A resident said two Humvees were seen burning in the neighborhood, and that some American soldiers had taken refuge in a building. The report could not be independently confirmed, and it was unclear whether the soldiers involved were those who died.

A column of American tanks was seen moving through the center of Baghdad Sunday evening, possibly headed toward the fighting.

The military said the fighting erupted after members of a militia loyal to radical Shiite Muslim cleric Muqtada al-Sadr took control of police stations and government buildings in the neighborhood.

Protesters clashed with Italian and British forces in other cities in a broad, violent challenge to the U.S.-led coalition, raising questions about its ability to stabilize Iraq ahead of a scheduled June 30 handover of power to Iraqis.

(AP) American special forces join coalition soldiers as the Spanish base comes under attack outside...

Full Image

With less than three months left before then, the U.S. occupation administrator appointed an Iraqi defense minister and chief of national intelligence.

"These organizations will give Iraqis the means to defend their country against terrorists and insurgents," L. Paul Bremer said at a press conference.

About three miles outside the holy city of Najaf, supporters of al-Sadr opened fire on the Spanish garrison during a street protest that drew about 5,000 people. The protesters were angry over the arrest of the cleric's aide, said the Spanish Defense Ministry in Madrid.

The attackers opened fire at about noon, said Cmdr. Carlos Herradon, a spokesman for the Spanish headquarters in nearby Diwaniyah.

The Spanish and Salvadoran soldiers inside the garrison fired back, and assailants later regrouped in three clusters outside the base as the shooting continued for several hours.

(AP) American soldiers take cover as the Spanish base comes under attack outside Kufa, 15 kms north of...

Full Image

Two soldiers - a Salvadoran and an American - died and nine other soldiers were wounded, the Spanish defense ministry said. No other details were available.

More than 200 people were wounded, said Falah Mohammed, director of the Najaf health department. El Salvador's defense minister said several Salvadoran soldiers were wounded.

The death toll of at least 20 included two Iraqi soldiers who were inside the Spanish base, witnesses said.

Spain has 1,300 troops stationed in Iraq, and the Central American contingent is of a similar size. The Salvadorans are under Spanish command as part of an international brigade that includes troops from Central America.

Multiple train bombings in Madrid last month that killed 191 people have been blamed on al-Qaida-linked terrorists, who said they were punishing Spain for its alliance with the United States in Iraq and Afghanistan.

(AP) A Salvadorean soldier runs for cover as his base comes under attack outside Kufa, 15 kms north of...

Full Image

Spain's new government, elected just days after the March 11 train bombings, has promised to make good on its pre-election promise to withdraw all Spanish troops from Iraq unless command for peacekeeping is turned over to the United Nations.

In El Salvador, the defense minister said the attack will not alter his country's role in reconstruction efforts.

"It reinforces even more our decision to continue helping a country that is suffering," Juan Antonio Martinez said Sunday.

The protesters were upset over the detention of al-Yacoubi, a senior aide to the 30-year-old al-Sadr, who opposes the U.S.-led occupation of Iraq. Al-Sadr is at odds with most Shiites, who hope to gain substantial power in the new Iraqi government.

Shiites comprise about 60 percent of Iraq's 25 million people but were brutally repressed by the regime of Saddam Hussein, a Sunni Muslim.

(AP) An American soldier runs for cover as the Spanish base comes under attack outside Kufa, 15 kms...

Full Image

At coalition headquarters in Baghdad, a senior official said on condition of anonymity that al-Yacoubi was detained Saturday on charges of murdering Abdel-Majid al-Khoei, a senior Shiite cleric who returned to Iraq after the U.S.-led invasion. A total of 25 arrest warrants were issued, and 13 suspects have been arrested, the official said.

Spanish-led forces said they did not participate in the arrest.

In central Baghdad's Firdaus Square, police fired warning shots during a protest by hundreds of al-Sadr supporters against al-Yacoubi's arrest. At least two protesters were injured, witnesses said.

In Kufa, near Najaf, al-Sadr supporters took over a police station and seized guns inside. No police were in sight.

In the southern city of Nasiriyah, Italian troops traded fire with militiamen demonstrating against al-Yacoubi's detention, said Lt. Col. Pierluigi Monteduro, chief of staff of Italian troops in the region. One Italian officer was wounded in the leg.

Also in the south, British troops clashed with protesters in Amarah, according to the Ministry of Defense in London. It was unclear whether there were casualties.

Al-Sadr's office in Baghdad issued a statement later Sunday calling off street protests and saying the cleric would stage a sit-in at a mosque in Kufa, where he has delivered fiery weekly sermons for months.

Al-Sadr supporters also were angered by the March 28 closure of his weekly newspaper by U.S. officials. The Americans alleged the newspaper was inciting violence against coalition troops.

The two U.S. Marines, both assigned to the 1st Marine Division, were killed by an "enemy action" in Anbar province Saturday, the military said. One died Saturday and the other Sunday, the statement said without providing details.

Anbar is an enormous stretch of land reaching to the Jordanian and Syrian borders west of Baghdad that includes Fallujah, a city where four American civilian contractors were slain Wednesday.

At a checkpoint in Samarra, about 60 miles north of Baghdad, that was manned by Iraqi Civil Defense personnel, a bomb killed three security officers and wounded another, workers at Samarra General Hospital said.

In Kirkuk, also in the north, a car bomb exploded, killing three civilians and wounding two others, police said.

Bremer on Sunday announced the appointments of Ali Allawi, the interim trade minister, as the new defense minister and Mohammed al-Shehwani, a former Iraqi air force officer who fled Iraq in 1990, as head of the Iraqi National Intelligence Service.

Late Sunday, U.N. envoy Lakhdar Brahimi and a team that will assist Iraqis in the political transition to an interim Iraqi government arrived in Baghdad, the United Nations said.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040404/D81O8E581.html

[Phat Hog]

We’ll frickin’ figure it out one day… there is no diplomacy with these people. They only understand tyranny and an iron fist. When will this administration quit treating these people with kids gloves? I know I’m painting with a broad brush, but there are certain areas we need to strike hard and fast, and not let up until all these insurgents are detained or dust!

[Ancalagon the Black]

For the sake of accuracy, I think I should state that Tammy Bruce is a lesbian, former head of a major NOW organization and still claims to be a Democrat.

I think her politics overall, fall more in line with yours, Ancal, if you can believe that.

This may be true (for some reason I read "Bruce Tammy" as the author of the article...mstu eb hte dylxiesa), but these days she's a columnist for Newsmax.com, she appears regularly on Fox News, she hangs out with Hannity, and Dr. Laura wrote the preface to her book.

[Phat Hog]

Originally posted by Ancalagon the Black

Hmm...perhaps a distillation of the good points might be in order....

Fair request, so here goes...

"Fallujah has remained a hotbed of support for the brutal past regime, and for reasons that can only be explained by political correctness, we have not, up to this point, destroyed that base of murder, terrorism and bestial violence."

Happens to be an excellent point because we are treating these barbarians with kids gloves for the sake of appearing to be conciliatory to the Iraqi people – forgetting that there are some groups that only understand an iron fist.

"I’ll remind you of what it took to quell the beasts of Germany ..."

Probably one of the best parallels you can make to what is going on in Iraq. There were insurgents in Germany after the war that were armed and ordered by Hitler to continue to fight to the death. It was then the responsibility of the Russian troops to root out these people and make sure they had ample opportunity to die for their country.

"The time for political correctness, worry about inflaming the situation, and restraint, are over. This is war. The people of Fallujah have decided to continue the war, so it should indeed be visited upon them with no mercy."

I believe no commentary is necessary here…

"This is a good time to remember, however, the difference between the Clinton and Bush administrations. Bill Clinton was afraid and retreated out of Somalia, which as we know, is what so empowered bin Laden and made him feel Americans would cower when confronted."

While I don’t believe the Clinton administration retreated out of Somalia out of fear, I do believe it was because of political correctness; and al-Qaeda saw that episode as an area of exposure – where the US was weak. Kill US solders, brutally display the death, and the US will retreat… let’s hope we have learned, and don’t tuck tail and run.

"American leftists who control our culture, feel there is nothing worth fighting for except their own power."

This sward cuts on both sides, but truth never the less.

If you want to say that this article was harsh, mean spirited, whatever… it’s something that should have been stated a long time ago and perhaps we wouldn’t be dealing with this evil now. Time to go after these people with everything we have in our power – that’s the only language they understand.

[Ancalagon the Black]

Thanks for the analysis, Phat Hog. You already write far more convincingly than Bruce does.

I do not believe that the issue is one of ‘political correctness.’ The term gets bandied about way too often. This is about some basic things: civilization, honor, principle, and justice. We are the good guys precisely because we believe in these things. They are the bad guys because they do not. They are the bad guys because they slaughter innocents and parade their corpses. They are the bad guys because they are gleeful when their enemies perish violently. They are the bad guys because they believe that the only way to prevail in the world is through bloodshed.

We invaded a sovereign nation on the pretext of self-defense and then, later, on the pretext of liberating a people. We are an occupying force in a nation that has become chaotic and violent. Things aren’t good, and we get the blame. Is this justified? Probably not, but it’s not completely out of the realm of possibility that a reasonable person could view the occupying force as evil/oppressive/inhuman. If Indonesia invaded the US to ‘liberate’ it from Bush, even the psycho lefty Bush-haters would probably side with the majority of Americans in resisting the invasion.

What is the solution? I do not believe it is to raze Fallujah. I think that Bruce writes an article that appeals to the visceral, enraged side of the reader. One that’s calculated to fire up the testosterone and cancel out any possibility of rational thought by evoking hateful images. The Iraqis are like the Nazis! (Well, no, the Fallujans never invaded any countries or committed genocide last time I checked.) We need to DROP THE BOMB on them! (Well, dropping the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki arguably ended WWII; would this end terrorism? Probably not.) It fails to evaluate other strategies critically, assigning them to the taboo realm of ‘political correctness.’ It refuses to note that the ultimate victory would be to win the hearts and minds of these people.

Would that be easy? No. It would be far easier to blow them all up.

[Ghost of]

Originally posted by Ancalagon the Black

If Indonesia invaded the US to ‘liberate’ it from Bush, even the psycho lefty Bush-haters would probably side with the majority of Americans in resisting the invasion.

If you're qualifying them as psycho lefty Bush/America/white man/Western civ/ Christianity haters then no, I can't agree.

I just...I think that's how corrupted and hateful they've become. They may not actively participate in the invasion because the vast VAST majority of them are soft as baby ish, but they'd somehow, if only secretly be supporting it.

You underestimate the level of hate, I think. When you're marching with a sign saying "I love New York even better without the WTC" or "Stop US terrorism against NORTH FRIGGIN KOREA(paraphrase lol)" then...And if you hold up CUba as a paragon of democracy and human rights? well, no...you're too far gone to be a patriot EVER.

[Ancalagon the Black]

Let me get one thing straight, for which I am going to take a lot of flak and earn the ire of liberals and conservatives alike: I don’t really believe in patriotism.

I believe in shared values, in common goals, in a society that is built on principle and freedom and justice. I believe that the USA is a great country because it does not force a culture on its citizenry. I am proud to be an American because the USA rests on the greatness of its ideals, not on the racial uniformity of its citizens. I would defend the USA to the death because of these ideals, and because I think that they are ideals that should apply to all people, everywhere.

To me, patriotism is useless. It is an imagined virtue foisted upon a populace in order to make them compliant. It is a philosophy that proscribes virtuous protest, morally required disobedience, and nonconformity. It replaces the hard questions of good and evil with an ‘us’ and ‘them’ world view, in which ‘we’ are always right, always good, always on the side of truth and justice and glory no matter how evil our actions may be. It is designed to obfuscate, confuse, inflame, and incite. What little good it does could be accomplished just as well by replacing it with a sense of community, of shared goals, and of common ideals. What harm it does is often irreparable.

I love the USA. I took a solemn oath of allegiance to the country. I will stand by the USA and defend it when necessary.

But I am not a patriot.

[Jay Master Jay]

Things have gotten out of control and we need to bring our people home. We can't let our troops be sitting ducks any longer. It's getting worse every week.

[Guest 979guy]

Ancal,

I believe what you're talking about is the decline of Nationalism and with it - the eventual uselessness of the Nation State. Enough people like you, and this world could avoid many subsequent useless wars in the name of useless Nationalism...

Still - cultural, ethnic and traditional pride will probably always play a role, even in the more politically-aware societies of hate world. The EU should become a US#2 in a couple of decades - sharing one economy, one army and eventually one present-day culture. But it probably won't. French, German and English will not set History aside.

I like the boldness in saying you're not a patriot. It's sometimes comforting to nestle in the warmth of a Nation, "protecting" you, "binding" you with your "brethren". It comes down to the most basic questions, for instance for me: What determines me first and foremost – am I an "Israeli", or a "father"? Pretty clear-cut in my case. I'd die for my children while I think it's futile to die for a country, per se. If my country defends my children - it is then worth fighting for. "Life" (not just my kids'), therefore, is the velue worth protecting. Patriotism might screw up such priorities, manipulate them. You then go out waging useless wars with the masses' support.

Ahh, what am I talking about?...Ancalagon, you just precede your time!

[Sarge]

Originally posted by Ancalagon the Black

Let me get one thing straight, for which I am going to take a lot of flak and earn the ire of liberals and conservatives alike: I don’t really believe in patriotism.

I believe in shared values, in common goals, in a society that is built on principle and freedom and justice. I believe that the USA is a great country because it does not force a culture on its citizenry. I am proud to be an American because the USA rests on the greatness of its ideals, not on the racial uniformity of its citizens. I would defend the USA to the death because of these ideals, and because I think that they are ideals that should apply to all people, everywhere.

To me, patriotism is useless. It is an imagined virtue foisted upon a populace in order to make them compliant. It is a philosophy that proscribes virtuous protest, morally required disobedience, and nonconformity. It replaces the hard questions of good and evil with an ‘us’ and ‘them’ world view, in which ‘we’ are always right, always good, always on the side of truth and justice and glory no matter how evil our actions may be. It is designed to obfuscate, confuse, inflame, and incite. What little good it does could be accomplished just as well by replacing it with a sense of community, of shared goals, and of common ideals. What harm it does is often irreparable.

I love the USA. I took a solemn oath of allegiance to the country. I will stand by the USA and defend it when necessary.

But I am not a patriot.

Wow. I'm glad you don't live in this country.

And here's your flack.

Of course, your statement is the perfect example of the end result of liberal philosophy. Nobody here has "common ideas" anymore. People used to come here to be Americans. Now everybody is a Mexican American, or Chinese American or Arab Americam or Australian American, nobody is just a plain American. Sure, people still come here wanting to sponge all the benifits of being American, but just like your statement, they don't want to do much to contribute to the ideals of this country. Things such as having a sense of patriotism, or assimilating into OUR culture, or adopting to our ideals and beliefs. Ideals and beliefs that buillt this country and they are directly benifiting from as we speak.

And I love the liberal mantra "Yeah, I'd fight for the country.....except if we do this" or "When necessary". Every liberal has their own little idea of "when it's necessary" to fight, and if it doesn't fit into their perfect little world, well then "Hell no, WE WON'T GO" and "NO WAR FOR OIL". "Whatever feels good" has gone too far in this area. You don't fight for the country and it's ideals when it pleases you. You may not agree with the reason, but being part of our society mandates that when the country calls, you go. Fortunately for you and others, there are people out there willing to take up your slack. Just be advised, the day may come when you are actually called to step up the the plate. That's just part of the price of living in the greatest country in the world.

[Ghost of]

Originally posted by Ancalagon the Black

Let me get one thing straight, for which I am going to take a lot of flak and earn the ire of liberals and conservatives alike: I don’t really believe in patriotism.

I believe in shared values, in common goals, in a society that is built on principle and freedom and justice. I believe that the USA is a great country because it does not force a culture on its citizenry. I am proud to be an American because the USA rests on the greatness of its ideals, not on the racial uniformity of its citizens. I would defend the USA to the death because of these ideals, and because I think that they are ideals that should apply to all people, everywhere.

To me, patriotism is useless. It is an imagined virtue foisted upon a populace in order to make them compliant. It is a philosophy that proscribes virtuous protest, morally required disobedience, and nonconformity. It replaces the hard questions of good and evil with an ‘us’ and ‘them’ world view, in which ‘we’ are always right, always good, always on the side of truth and justice and glory no matter how evil our actions may be. It is designed to obfuscate, confuse, inflame, and incite. What little good it does could be accomplished just as well by replacing it with a sense of community, of shared goals, and of common ideals. What harm it does is often irreparable.

I love the USA. I took a solemn oath of allegiance to the country. I will stand by the USA and defend it when necessary.

But I am not a patriot.

I know this may surprise you but I agree to a great extent. I think, not sure, that you were responding to my last post about these psycho leftists not being patriots. Well, I mean that in the sense that they have NO love or respect for their country.

I also think that there IS a difference between America and other countries--even the founding of the nation in principle(however unrealized some ideals would remain) as opposed to cosanguinity or dictat from a monarch separates the nation from others.

I think there's nothing wrong with being a patriot when it comes to America, provided you fight for the values that made America what it is. The people marching, let's be honest, don't really believe in America. They believe in the Soviet States of America---they'll fight for THAT land maybe, but not for a free country. They DESPITE capitalism, religious faith, and even concepts like honor and morality.

Most of the far left has disdain for any attempt to view anything through a truly moral lens--UNLESS it's the West or the US. That is the hypocrisy of the moral relativists--there's no good or evil except when it comes to our country or civilization, then they become staunch advocates of a polar view of the world.

But then, they've always had that fanatically religious bent to their views and behavior.

True, if Hillary became dictator I would no longer be a patriot if American troops were used to root out TRUE patriots and defenders of liberty. But I guess that's because my definition of patriotism varies slightly from the dictionary definition.

Hell, if a group of aliens agreed to help me conquer the world so that people could live in freedom, real freedom, and that things like Rwanda or Sudan no longer happened--I'd take their aid(this is assuming I knew for sure they'd not betray me) So, if it were a choice between a Frederic Bastiat and a John Kerry or GW Bush--I'm taking Bastiat 1000 times out of a 1000.

So I guess I agree--I don't share values with American skinheads, nor do I share them with LBJ or Ted Kennedy. One can be a patriot and not agree with the decisions the government makes.

[Phat Hog]

Originally posted by Jay Master Jay

Things have gotten out of control and we need to bring our people home. We can't let our troops be sitting ducks any longer. It's getting worse every week.

And if we don’t start getting tough with these insurgents, it’s only going to get worse. But for every one of these evil, brutal savages, there are 100 that are happy not to be under the oppression of Saddam. I say we don’t run away, but take the fight to these people that understand only death and destruction.

[webnarc]

Originally posted by Sarge

And I love the liberal mantra "Yeah, I'd fight for the country.....except if we do this" or "When necessary". Every liberal has their own little idea of "when it's necessary" to fight, and if it doesn't fit into their perfect little world, well then "Hell no, WE WON'T GO" and "NO WAR FOR OIL". "Whatever feels good" has gone too far in this area. You don't fight for the country and it's ideals when it pleases you. You may not agree with the reason, but being part of our society mandates that when the country calls, you go. Fortunately for you and others, there are people out there willing to take up your slack. Just be advised, the day may come when you are actually called to step up the the plate. That's just part of the price of living in the greatest country in the world.

The problem with unquestioned patriotism is that it becomes a substitute for thinking and therefore diminishes ones responsibility for acting like a fool because they cite their patriotic intent. Holding on to it so dearly does exactly what Ancalagon said and it sets ONE group of people as "the ideal American" and the rest as liberal American's.

What frightens me is that few see the parallel between American patriotism and a loyalty to Islam, Jesus or Chris Fitzpatrick.

[Ancalagon the Black]

Originally posted by Sarge

Of course, your statement is the perfect example of the end result of liberal philosophy. Nobody here has "common ideas" anymore. People used to come here to be Americans. Now everybody is a Mexican American, or Chinese American or Arab Americam or Australian American, nobody is just a plain American. Sure, people still come here wanting to sponge all the benifits of being American, but just like your statement, they don't want to do much to contribute to the ideals of this country. Things such as having a sense of patriotism, or assimilating into OUR culture, or adopting to our ideals and beliefs. Ideals and beliefs that buillt this country and they are directly benifiting from as we speak.

People do have common ideas. Freedom. Democracy. The idea that government should represent the people and exist for the people, not the other way around. The US Constitution. The Declaration of Independence. Struggle against oppression and tyranny. I think these are ideas that bond together all true Americans.

I actually agree with you that people should be happy identifying as just plain "American" (although it's good to hold on to one's cultural roots to a degree). This means that if my religion says to kill the President, for example, I should ignore it.

I think it's pretty rotten of you to say that people come to America just to sponge all the benefits of being American. The benefits of being American are to be able to live one's life in dignity, pursuing happiness, without fear that the government will come and enslave you. In return, you are expected to work hard and make your own way in life. Is this so terrible?

And I love the liberal mantra "Yeah, I'd fight for the country.....except if we do this" or "When necessary". Every liberal has their own little idea of "when it's necessary" to fight, and if it doesn't fit into their perfect little world, well then "Hell no, WE WON'T GO" and "NO WAR FOR OIL". "Whatever feels good" has gone too far in this area. You don't fight for the country and it's ideals when it pleases you. You may not agree with the reason, but being part of our society mandates that when the country calls, you go. Fortunately for you and others, there are people out there willing to take up your slack. Just be advised, the day may come when you are actually called to step up the the plate. That's just part of the price of living in the greatest country in the world.

Well, let me make this clear: if I were drafted, I would fight UNLESS it were a CLEARLY unjust war (like, say, we invaded Canada just because we felt like it). If Saudi Arabia or North Korea or France or Uzbekistan declared war on us and began trying to invade us, I would sign up immediately. America is worth defending. Where is the "whatever feels good" in this?

I think you're arguing against someone you made up.

[Hooper]

Once again, Ancal, you're making way too much sense to post in this forum.