ummagumma Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 I love Joe Gibbs...as a head coach. I do have bad memories of the only GM opinion I remember him making...you know, trading up for that Michigan WR. Has he inhaled too much in the way of fumes from race cars...who can tell? But this is the place for opinions. I exercise my opinion under the notion that the Redskins have a core problem. Yes, I think coaching is a problem, but I also feel that the team needed to be rebuilt. I don't know about you, but rebuilding a team usually means keeping young talented CB's and QB's. PR is a 23 year old with a positve TD/Int ratio behind a terrible blocking scheme and poor offensive design. Champ is a 4 time All-star at the age of 25. Since he's played under 5 d-coorinaters, that's utterly impressive. But these guys aren't the players we want here in DC. Heck no. The irony is the draft picks we'll get will turn into younger, less experienced players, that presumably Gibbs will like less than PR or Champ. They could trade the picks. OK, well that would explain a lot. That better be what happens. I'm just terribly confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanders 83 Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 Who said we are trading Ramsey? And the only reason Champ might be traded is because we aren't willing to meet his huge contract demands. It is possible he could come back though, if a team signs him to a reasonable contract, we can match and keep him. So before you freak out, maybe you should wait and see what happens, and stop listening to so many "rumors". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 maske had a good point the other day: what we are seeing now is some free play to determine what Champ's market value really is. This, so the theory goes, will establish the upper bound. The betting, on tyhe part of Skins' management, is that it will shape more reasonable extpectations on Champ's and Sexton's demands. We shall see - the theory doesn't account for emotions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggins Seventy Chip Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 Losing Champ and Ramsey would be devastating for this franchise and I believe the players would lose faith in the organization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernie5 Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 As it is w/Champ, the Redskins will only move Ramsey if Ramsey and his agent made the situation intolerable. This has been the Redskin way for 20+ years. Champ sulked all of last year, outright said, even before last season began, that he didn't want to be here, and rejected a perfectly reasonable offer to stay. He has that right and if someone wants to pay him what he's asking, more power to him, but we can't (and shouldn't) do it here. He's a great player, but chemistry is more important than pure talent & Gibbs' arrival is about chemistry. Indeed, I am sure that Champ's unwillingness to live in the area and maybe a nice long chat with Darrell Green convinced Gibbs that Champ is expendable. Make no mistake, they want Ramsey in DC. I know, for a fact, that you haven't read anything to the contrary, so stop whining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 Originally posted by Riggins Seventy Chip Losing Champ and Ramsey would be devastating for this franchise and I believe the players would lose faith in the organization. A couple of things leap to my mind when I read this. The players have been part of 8-8, 8-8, 7-9 and 5-11. Do you really think it's THEIR faith that anyone cares about? I mean, why do any of us view ANY of the players we have as untouchable? Coles maybe because he only had a year here. Ramsey perhaps for his youth. But, there are no players on this team that you can possibly LOSE and who would devestate a 5-11 team. None. You appreciate that fact, don't you? When you're 5-11 you have FREE reign to transform the roster into something different. It may not be a roster that's AS talented. But it may be a roster that is ultimately better. If we do lose both Champ and Ramsey, we'll certainly have multiple picks and players in free agency that are available to us to even up the talent drain and likely improve upon that loss. Of course, it's now Feb. 21 and we haven't lost anyone. So, perhaps doom is less appropriate today than it might be at another point. Call me crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooney Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 Ummagumma: Imagine what Desmond Howards career would have looked like if he had played for Coach Gibbs instead of Norv. We might have been looking back at a great Redskin career under Coach. Who knows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aryllyian Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 The only reason Champ MAY be leaving is because CHAMP does not want to be a Redskin. The Skins have offered to make Champ the highest paid defensive player in the league...Champ said... "THANKS BUT NO THANKS!" It amazes me how people come to this board and that the Skins FO is to blame when a player wants to leave. I keep hearing Champ wants to be shown respect for his skills....In my mind, the Skins FO has offered Champ a reasonable offer that both gives Champ the respect he deserves AND lets us field a team capable of winning championships. If Champ wants one more than the other, then he'll have to go elsewhere.....In other words, we cannot just give Champ what he wants and then play defense with Champ, Lavarr and 9 other players who should be bagging groceries..........The FO is trying to field a team that is WORTHY of Mr. Bailey's presence. I wish Champ would look at the many players who have come and gone and never won a championship and decide that its better to be one of several great players and win, rather than be the only great player and lose. For prospective, picture this 30 years from now: Ty Law and Champ Bailey meet at an Autograph Signing. Each man admires the other, Champ looks down and sees Ty Law's rings. Inside Champ will feel empty, like he missed out on something during his career. For a brief moment, he'll regret leaving the Skins and will continue signing the photos for the myriad of Lion's fans. Sadly, deep inside he will know its no one's fault but his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CounterTre Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 The Skins have offered to make Champ the highest paid defensive player in the league...Champ said..."THANKS BUT NO THANKS!" That's a gross oversimplification. The Ske\ins by all accounts simply made the same offer to Champ they did last offseason. I'm sure he reejcted it this time for the same reason he rejected the last time. It's not the money amount on the contract it's the way it's structured. His contract is so backloaded that he wouldn't see most of that money. he would have been foolsih to agree to that structure so like last time I can't blame the guy for making that BUSINESS decision. Teams show no loyalty to players on contract negotiations, why should the players bend over and grab their ankles then? None of have seen the particulars of the offers. I still believe Champ will be here and I think our FO will finally redo his contract in a way that doesn't pretty much assure Chamo won't see a lot of the money. Bottom line....until we see something I will reserve judgement, the same as I did with Ramsey and Brunell until I actually hear them speak. Thus far I can't blame Champ one bit for how this has been handled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 Originally posted by CounterTre That's a gross oversimplification. The Ske\ins by all accounts simply made the same offer to Champ they did last offseason. I'm sure he reejcted it this time for the same reason he rejected the last time. It's not the money amount on the contract it's the way it's structured. His contract is so backloaded that he wouldn't see most of that money. he would have been foolsih to agree to that structure so like last time I can't blame the guy for making that BUSINESS decision. Teams show no loyalty to players on contract negotiations, why should the players bend over and grab their ankles then? None of have seen the particulars of the offers. I still believe Champ will be here and I think our FO will finally redo his contract in a way that doesn't pretty much assure Chamo won't see a lot of the money. Bottom line....until we see something I will reserve judgement, the same as I did with Ramsey and Brunell until I actually hear them speak. Thus far I can't blame Champ one bit for how this has been handled. CT, If you can't blame Champ one bit, then there's something you're not following closely enough. The Redskins have given Champ TWO formal offers. One before last season. One after the season ended. In both cases Champ didn't just say no. He said NOTHING. There was NO counter. No offer was submitted BACK by Champ. Not even an overly outrageous one. To this day the Skins STILL don't know exactly what Champ wants because Champ and Reale haven't responded to ANY offer we've given. They haven't negotiated. They haven't said if you do this or that or this we can talk. They've simply sat on the offer. Their stance is clear. It's not enough. We won't even lower ourselves to a conversation until you show Champ the respect he deserves with a bigger contract that starts to enter his sweet spot. This is ludicrous. Champ is ENTIRELY to blame. Had he said before the season or now that no, the deal we offered isn't good, but, such and such would be, then we could look at the team. That hasn't happened. A flat rejection with no willingness to expose what they do want is what the team has met in the Bailey negotiations. If you don't see fault here I have to ask you how you've missed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red&BlueRivalry Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 Originally posted by Art CT, If you can't blame Champ one bit, then there's something you're not following closely enough. The Redskins have given Champ TWO formal offers. One before last season. One after the season ended. In both cases Champ didn't just say no. He said NOTHING. There was NO counter. No offer was submitted BACK by Champ. Not even an overly outrageous one. To this day the Skins STILL don't know exactly what Champ wants because Champ and Reale haven't responded to ANY offer we've given. They haven't negotiated. They haven't said if you do this or that or this we can talk. They've simply sat on the offer. Their stance is clear. It's not enough. We won't even lower ourselves to a conversation until you show Champ the respect he deserves with a bigger contract that starts to enter his sweet spot. This is ludicrous. Champ is ENTIRELY to blame. Had he said before the season or now that no, the deal we offered isn't good, but, such and such would be, then we could look at the team. That hasn't happened. A flat rejection with no willingness to expose what they do want is what the team has met in the Bailey negotiations. If you don't see fault here I have to ask you how you've missed it. It could be Champ is sick of going through a different coach or defensive coordinator ever year. I know we all realize what a superb coach Gibbs was ten years ago but most NFL players don't follow the history of the league, they just play the game. Just playing devil's advocate but the Skins could be a team without any direction to Champ. Everyone saw Arrington's comments about the team and its changes (even under Gibbs), why should Champ think any different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CounterTre Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 "In both cases Champ didn't just say no. He said NOTHING" How do you know this Art? Have you actually talked to Champ or Snyder? And if the contract is identical to the one offered before, offering it again is a bit of an insult and not worthy of a reaction IMO. I just don't agree with your take especially considering how much Cash we've thrown around to other players knwoing the whole time we needed to pay the best CB in the league. Coles, Arringtn anyone? Neither is regarded as the best at their position, neither is in as tough of a postion to fill with marquee talent and both have gotten fat fat contracts from the Skins. So nope I can't blame Champ one bit, until I actually KNOW what's gone on behind the scenes instead of all of this conjecture by "mediots". Both sides have dropped the ball at times leading us to where we are now. Maybe Champ's camp could have been more open to the press about their thoughts, but to the Skins? How do we actually know what's been said to the Skins? Please, the money has absolutely been flying around at times, this is the business part of the deal, getting all personally affected by how it's going down is a waste of time and energy for me. So no I won't cast blame until I see all the cards on the table and have all the facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 CT, Have I? Well, no. So, you attempt to measure what people who have done precisely that think about a situation. Mark Maske said JUST YESTERDAY -- not for the first time -- that the problem with Champ right now is he simply hasn't negotiated. He's not put anything back for the team to consider. You seem to want to KNOW the behind the scenes before allowing yourself to be critical of the situation. That's great. But, the thing is, you'll NEVER know the inside detail. Ever. By the same measure you asked me, you'll never be there to know it. This seems to be absurd in terms of measuring a situation. As fans we are never going to know the inside scoop. We get what inside information we can from the people who do have access to the team. From them you pull out the information that is repeated and verified as true through multiple sources. Therefore, you do know the inside story as well as you ever will. You've just decided not to blame Champ. And, again, since we do know he hasn't responded with a contract of his own to EITHER of our chances to make him the highest paid corner in the game, I have to ask how you can leave him blameless? The Skins FIRST offer was the BEST offer any corner has ever been offered. Champ didn't say, "Great, but I need this money structured this way, plus this many more millions." He simply did nothing. That's on him. We offered Arrington a contract for a lot less than he was said to have signed. He signed a few weeks later. Why? Because he negotiated. You can't sign a player who seems to be waiting for the magic contract and who won't offer anything in return. Contract negotiations are a two-way street. Only ONE side is doing anything right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brandies Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 I am forming a LLC and am looking for an idiot to be part of the management team. I've hired a scapegoat, a psychotic who is in charge of security, and a woman who is willing to sleep her way to the top. My next project is "Krutilla Towers" that involves building used trailer high rises. I think the Bailey trade is as stated here, about finances. There are a limited amount of super stars one can sign and still have a solid team. I think it is far more important to have a great pass rush than a great corner. Of course, I could be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CounterTre Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 I dunno Art that's awful conveneint IMO. You base it all on media speculation without the benefit of quotes of the actual parties involved. I realize of course that we will never be flies on the wall, but I reserve judgement for things I can use quotes or actual tangible events to form opinions with. What is going on with Champ right now is all 100% speculation. Your point about round 1 with Champ is valid but you leave out one important factor there....the why of the equation. Things were rather ugly even then and Champ may very well have decided he wanted out no matter what. Multiple DC's, lousy teams with no edge, lousy coatches etc. some of whom don't even know everyone's name. Then Spurrier quits and the team becomes even more chaotic and he HAS to be saying to himself "get me the F*(% outa Here!". Enter Joe Gibbs. Without listing off all of the things we know that Gibbs and his all world coaching staff bring to the table I think we can all agree that his hiring changed EVERYTHING. This probably led Champ to at least reconsider. Then we fire back the exact same insulting backloaded contract we did before while we've been throwing huge money at guys like Coles and Arrington. Champ's contract wasn't what it seemed any more than Brunnell's is a 43 million dollar job (neither would have seen a lot of that jack) and if what you're saying is true, they don't even bother responding. They don't have to yet, it's early and they could have merely asked for trade permission so they can test the market. This could be either bad or Good for either side and it can be argued that this is good negotiating play by either side. Regardless, it's all based on a TON of speculation without the benefit of quotes from anyone in the FO. Until I have something more tangible than a Maske quote I'm gonna hold off on lambasting the best thing our team has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 So, CT, you're waiting for Bailey or Reale to come out and say, "Yeah, the Skins made us an offer, but we have no interest in making a counter offer." Dude, their actions in this make them the bad guys. They KNOW it. They aren't going to come out and declare what they are doing. And the team, if it hopes to keep Bailey, won't either. They might make behind the scenes comments about there being little they can do when Bailey won't negotiate. But, they can't go at his throat. At least not yet. Our front office doesn't make quotes about contracts before they are done. Bailey isn't going to admit he's not negotiating. Before the season Bailey DID say something about not knowing what to do since the team doesn't want him. The team did go underground to let out information that, hey, WE OFFERED him a contract and haven't heard back for weeks. It's not just what Maske has repeatedly said about this that should persuade you. It's the fact that you haven't heard a single article about how far apart the teams are. That comes from the agent. The agent will have a deal from the team and reveal to the press what they expect instead. The fact remains, Bailey's side hasn't made a single offer in return. What he wants remains a mystery. It's HIS fault he's not resigned already because if he had, we'd have either paid it, or simply said no and we'd all know it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Master Jay Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 We could just keep Champ and Ramsey. They both have contracts Champ has been FT and Ramsey has 2 years left on his. Why not trained them to be real Redskin Football players? Why let them go because they want to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panthro Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 Ramsey isn't going anywhere. Listen to what Gibbs has already said.... Ramsey will be in a Skins uniform next fall. Take a look at any article on PR's supposed grief. Has he been quoted as saying he wants out? No! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyDave Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 Get off of Roland's jock If he doesnt want to be here you dont overpay him to the detriment of the team. Get fair value and watch him wither away in detroit Roland has never shown any Mr Redskin tendencies so I don't see why people side with him instead of managemnt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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