Heresy: Cerrato might be a decent GM

[Art]

Originally posted by endzone_dave

Art,

I think an ideal situation would be an experienced football person makes the decisions as to what players and coaches are needed. Danny would then go out and land them.

The football guy does what he does best, Danny does what he does best.

And there you go ED. You have just summed up perfectly precisely what we just saw here last offseason. The ideal situation is EXACTLY what we have. Snyder lets his experienced football person make the decisions as to what players and coaches are needed and the Danny goes out and gets them. The football guy is doing what he does best and Danny is doing what he does best.

That is PRECISELY how it functioned last offseason and the one before. And this one is likely to follow the same path.

[endzone_dave]

Originally posted by Art

And there you go ED. You have just summed up perfectly precisely what we just saw here last offseason. The ideal situation is EXACTLY what we have. Snyder lets his experienced football person make the decisions as to what players and coaches are needed and the Danny goes out and gets them. The football guy is doing what he does best and Danny is doing what he does best.

That is PRECISELY how it functioned last offseason and the one before. And this one is likely to follow the same path.

Who is the experienced NFL person we had making the decisions?

[Dr. D]

get real.

Why bother to crown Vinny anything. He is just the empty pair of sweats that executes Danny Boy's commands. Danny should annoint himself GM and then the farce will at least see its real face. No more hiding behind syncophants.

That's why I don't want Vinny here. Because he is just Danny boy's b1tch. A real GM would have a voice of his own.

we are infected with this blight tho we like it naught.

[Art]

Sarge,

Again, what personnel moves did we make last year that you are troubled with. I assume if I do a history of your statements on this board that you were out and open about how terrible the offseason we had last year was, right?

You say Snyder's skills should be part of what he's doing but he shouldn't be running the draft. May I ask what evidence you have that he runs the draft? Seems to me the extent of his involvement is to settle disagreements between his coaching staff and his personnel people where they don't agree.

We don't have anyone who can spot talent past the second round, eh? Well, our scouting department has been headed by Scott Campbell who is said to be among the best in the business. We have former players like Conklin and former coaches like Fazio working in this area now. Perhaps the reason we don't have a ton of guys from the later rounds still around is because we've changed coaches three times with a fourth on the way and we've changed front office structures four times with a fifth on the way in the last five years? Could this be part of it?

You're right, 5-11 does suck.

Is this 5-11 team better or worse than Marty's 8-8 team. How about than Spurrier's 7-9 team. You and I both know the answer. So, where does 5-11 come from then? You agree we had a good offseason in this thread yet you say anyone who wants us to continue to have good offseasons is on crack? How does that work? We had a good offseason. You agree. Yet, if you want to continue with that momentum you're on crack? You have to explain precisely what this means.

As for Spurrier, I'm fine if you want to put his failure on the owner. Snyder hired Spurrier and can take all the heat you want. The fact is, though, Spurrier was generally considered the best coaching candidate on the market. Every person who knew anything about football wanted him to coach their team. It's now bad we can pay for guys everyone else wants.

It's STUNNING to me the depths people will go to be critical. Everyone wanted Spurrier. Yet, it's a NEGATIVE that our guy got him because he was willing to pony up. Fascinating. And here I thought having money and being willing to pay up was a positive and all. Maybe we should be more like McCombs?

You say the constant since Danny arrived is Danny and the win-loss record speaks to his competence. Yet, in this reply you say you don't blame him for 5-11 because you recognize the coaching staff failed. Yet you do blame him. But you don't. But you do.

Everything and nothing Sarge. Everything and nothing.

[mcgraw238]

It is well documented that working at Redskin Park is no "utopia." So I am not going to argue that point anymore. Until that environment is changed, the Redskins will not sustain long term success.

[Art]

Originally posted by endzone_dave

Who is the experienced NFL person we had making the decisions?

Vinny Cerrato. You think he was pulled from a cracker jack box? He's got years of NFL and college personnel experience. He's worked for Policy and Clark and around Seifert and Mariucci. He MIGHT know good management. He might know good coaching. He's clearly an NFL guy. Snyder didn't wave a magic wand and MAKE him one. He is one.

You don't have to like him. But you can't pretend this is his first job in the league either.

[Art]

Originally posted by mcgraw238

It is well documented that working at Redskin Park is no "utopia." So I am not going to argue that point anymore. Until that environment is changed, the Redskins will not sustain long term success.

Ok, McGraw, it's no utopia, because Marvin Lewis said so. Except, he was talking about working for Spurrier and actually being the head coach where Spurrier failed. And except for Mendes who actually left and returned, so obviously it wasn't so bad. He got beat out for the personnel job though. That's why he retired again.

Obviously, it's a demanding environment working for Snyder. Clearly so. Good. It should be. It's better than not being challenged to raise the level of your work.

[endzone_dave]

If Vinny is making all the decisions then he needs to take a hike. 5-11 doesn't cut it.

[mcgraw238]

Danny is that you?

[Art]

Originally posted by endzone_dave

If Vinny is making all the decisions then he needs to take a hike. 5-11 doesn't cut it.

So, Cerrato also coached us to six losses by a handful of points too? Or was that someone else? Again, match this team up with the team we had at 8-8 two years ago. Walk up and down the roster man for man. If the answer comes up that this one is better, you'll probably know all you need to know about how 5-11 happened.

[Art]

Originally posted by mcgraw238

Danny is that you?

No, McGraw. Just someone who actually understands it's NOT negative to work in a demanding environment. I wish we all could work for the government where there are no demands on your performance. But, in the real world, demanding and challenging and accountable is good. Honest.

[endzone_dave]

Vinny picked the coach if indeed he's making all the decisions.

[mcgraw238]

Demanding, challenging and accountable is great. I'm familiar with all three. Hostile is another.

[ThatGuy]

For everyone who hates Cerrato/Snyder running the show. Do me a favour and name some teams that you feel draft and set up their team in the offseason better than us.

[Sarge]

Originally posted by Art

Sarge,

Again, what personnel moves did we make last year that you are troubled with. I assume if I do a history of your statements on this board that you were out and open about how terrible the offseason we had last year was, right?

You say Snyder's skills should be part of what he's doing but he shouldn't be running the draft. May I ask what evidence you have that he runs the draft? Seems to me the extent of his involvement is to settle disagreements between his coaching staff and his personnel people where they don't agree.

We don't have anyone who can spot talent past the second round, eh? Well, our scouting department has been headed by Scott Campbell who is said to be among the best in the business. We have former players like Conklin and former coaches like Fazio working in this area now. Perhaps the reason we don't have a ton of guys from the later rounds still around is because we've changed coaches three times with a fourth on the way and we've changed front office structures four times with a fifth on the way in the last five years? Could this be part of it?

You're right, 5-11 does suck.

Is this 5-11 team better or worse than Marty's 8-8 team. How about than Spurrier's 7-9 team. You and I both know the answer. So, where does 5-11 come from then? You agree we had a good offseason in this thread yet you say anyone who wants us to continue to have good offseasons is on crack? How does that work? We had a good offseason. You agree. Yet, if you want to continue with that momentum you're on crack? You have to explain precisely what this means.

As for Spurrier, I'm fine if you want to put his failure on the owner. Snyder hired Spurrier and can take all the heat you want. The fact is, though, Spurrier was generally considered the best coaching candidate on the market. Every person who knew anything about football wanted him to coach their team. It's now bad we can pay for guys everyone else wants.

It's STUNNING to me the depths people will go to be critical. Everyone wanted Spurrier. Yet, it's a NEGATIVE that our guy got him because he was willing to pony up. Fascinating. And here I thought having money and being willing to pay up was a positive and all. Maybe we should be more like McCombs?

You say the constant since Danny arrived is Danny and the win-loss record speaks to his competence. Yet, in this reply you say you don't blame him for 5-11 because you recognize the coaching staff failed. Yet you do blame him. But you don't. But you do.

Everything and nothing Sarge. Everything and nothing.

Everything and nothing. Exactly. This duo does everything and we have nothing, except

1999 10-6 Norv

2000 8-8 Norv

2001 8-8 Marty

2002 7-9 SS

2003 5-11 SS

Hmmmmmmmmm. Let's see, Again, who are the only people that have been here this whole time? Hmmmmmmmmm.

And to answer your questions, I was happy with who we brought in in the off season. I was not happy to have to go dumpster diving in the middle of the season to make up for a lack of depth on the team, either through lack of middle round picks to step up or FA pick ups. (Hasslebeck, Chamberlin) And yes, I realize you can't plug every hole, but geeeesh. We not only didn't have the right sized stopper to put in the drain, we had no stopper at all.

I don't know, sitting in the draft room smoking a stogie? I'm pretty sure he wasn't there just to see what was going on. I don't ever recall Mr Cooke doing that.

And who has initiated all this change?

I was one that was happy with SS coming in. I thought he could replicate what he was doing in Florida. I wanted to see balls flying through the air again. But having grown up with Gibbs, I knew after the Raider Super Bowl spanking we got that a good defense will over come a good offense most of the time. We went into this season with a sorry a$$ed DL and a hobbled LB. We got waxed, and probably would have gotten waxed no matter how many points SS could have put up, ala San Diego under Corriell(sp). when they would score 55 and lose by 56. But as it turned out, we were lucky to score 14 by the end of the season.

Again, who is to blame for going into the season like this? We could have gotten just as good a free agents on the D line but didn't. Either the danny or vinny let things on that side slide, and look what we got for it.

Gotta run to PT. If I don't get back, everyone have a happy New Year and keep your eyes open.

[Sarge]

Originally posted by Art

No, McGraw. Just someone who actually understands it's NOT negative to work in a demanding environment. I wish we all could work for the government where there are no demands on your performance. But, in the real world, demanding and challenging and accountable is good. Honest.

Come play where I work. You wouldn't last a day:D

[ejharrisjr]

All arguing aside....this is a critical juncture for this franchise. The coach picked by Snyder and Cerrato will define the Redskins for the next decade, whether it will be a winner or regular loser (like the Cardinals)

[redman]

Guys, the problem isn't that we don't have a talented team - we do. The problem is that we've built the team ass backwards, particularly on defense, in that we've tried to build around CB's and LB's, rather than from the line back.

I have fewer criticisms on offense, but our glaring lack of role players such as a good blocking (or any really) TE absolutely kills us.

I think you have to build a team with good role players first, but instead we seem to always go for stars first. That's my criticism of Cerrato/Snyder.

[mcgraw238]

Are you kidding, with 5 coaches in 5 years, the coach picked by Snyder and Cerrato will define the Redskins for next season.

[ejharrisjr]

Originally posted by mcgraw238

Are you kidding, with 5 coaches in 5 years, the coach picked by Snyder and Cerrato will define the Redskins for next season.

Of course it will....it will define whether or not we can at least achieve 8-8 at the worst or finish as bad as we did this year and maybe WORSE....

[Art]

We haven't had five coaches in five years that we've hired. We'll hit four. A fifth guy was an interim coach and was never anything more, so it might be beneficial if we stopped lumping him in with head coaches because INTERIM means something.

Spurrier left. That's unfortuante. Very difficult to blame Snyder or Cerrato for his departure as if they wanted it when all signs point to the thought he would return. But, we must never actually be critical of Spurrier. No way.

Again, I was dead wrong on Spurrier being a success. I was dead wrong on Vinny being the wrong man to influence Snyder. Being wrong sucks. I'd much rather be right, and given the way the future can change, I could be wrong again and end up being right. It's great .

Sarge,

You say we could have gone with defensive linemen in the offseason. Great. Who? Who were the just as good free agent linemen we missed out on? Tick off some names. NO one was more in favor of picking defensive linemen during the offseason whether in free agency of the draft than I was. Please tell me the guys we missed out on.

Bet you'll be surprised by your answer.

[Posse81]

Redman makes a great, great point. This team has talent but has been buit backwards. You build around a QB and a defensive line. You do not build around corners and linebackers. Everyone here knows that you win games if you win along the line of scrimmage. I don't think our FO got that memo.

My only other problem with the Snyder-Cerrato team is the draft. They have been perfect with they way they have handled the first round. BUT, teams like Baltimore, New England, and Pittsburgh reload every year because they are effective in the middle to late rounds.

Let's take a look at our starters that have come via the draft or were undrafted free agents:

Smoot (Marty)

Champ (Casserly)

Iffy (Marty)

Lavar (Cerrato)

Samuels (Cerrato)

Jansen (Casserly)

Gardner (Marty)

Flemister (Marty)

If you want to count Dockery, go ahead. That would make three guys, and only ONE who was drafted outside of the first round. We have looked at the Cerrato drafts on other threads and it's downright depressing. If you want me to post it again, I will, but it's not pretty.

**edit: I forgot the Rock. Thats two for Danny/Vinny**

[Even Madder]

For everyone who hates Cerrato/Snyder running the show. Do me a favour and name some teams that you feel draft and set up their team in the offseason better than us.

How 'bout every team that finished ahead of us? That's only 28 teams, right?

This thread is silly, because Cerrato is not the GM and is not making the decisions. Snyder is. Cerrato himself said so. Cerrato is just in charge of talent evaluation. So if you want to blame someone (or credit someone if you like the results, like Art), you have to blame Snyder.

And the results are not pretty. All the Cerrato/Snyder defenders want to argue that the individual moves have been great, like adding Coles, Thomas, and Hall, but the collective moves have been lousy. Want proof?

Here's proof: 10-6. 8-8. 7-9. 5-11.

Going the wrong direction, guys. The one constant throughout all of that was Snyder. Not the coaches. Not the players. Not even his evil bug-eyed sidekick, who Marty fired for one season.

You can't blame Spurrier. You can't blame Norv. You can't blame Marty. You can't blame tough schedules, injuries, lack of indoor facilities, or any of the other lame excuses I've heard. This team has slumped badly since Snyder took over, and is playing worse than they did in 1999.

That's Snyder's fault.

[Art]

EM,

You don't understand the front office arrangement. It's well reported what role Snyder has. It's as the tiebreaker. He's the final decision maker when that is necessary. The front office works with the coaching staff to come to an agreement on personnel decisions. Where they agree, there's no tiebreaker necessary. Where they do not, there is. Even the Washington Times outlined in an article just today how it worked, and they aren't likely to be kind to Snyder if he was the final arbiter of every decision.

You have PROOF the moves have been lousy by listing records?

Man for man, is this team better or worse than the team that went 8-8. Again, to ignore the importance of coaching is sheer lunacy. You can't blame Spurrier for going 12-20? This is remarkable.

I don't even think you believe this.

This team hasn't slumped badly since Snyder took over. It slumped badly since Spurrier did. Now he's gone.

[xanathos19]

I can't believe what I am reading here...they are both clowns, and Vinny is just in the GM position so Snyder can say that he has a GM in the FO to mask his real involvement...someone he knows that won't say NO...and I undestand your argument, ART, but if enough people say NO, the owner will listen. Dan doesn't do that, and 5 coaches in 5 years is completely ridiculous, and unfortunately, this franchise has been going in the sh!tter because of all the turnover.