Obamacare...(new title): GOP DEATH PLAN: Don-Ryan's Express

[chipwhich]

Rates are rising in the last three years since Obamacare passed at less than half the rate they rose in the previous 10 years prior to Obamacare.

 

http://www.usatoday....growth/3650243/

 

That's only because of the big migration to high deductible plans which greatly lowers rates to consumers while increase consumers out of pocket costs significantly.  High deductible plans have quadrupled in that time.

Can you?

Answer's complicated, isn't it?

 

I can.  It's not complicated at all.

About what? I was asked my height, weight, and date of birth when I joined my husband's policy. No other questions. (Sorry I'm late to answer, didn't see the call-out till now.)

And I'm responding to what the topic was at the time, whether smokers should admit to it when asked...

 

Hope your husband doesn't lose his policy to Obamacare, you might be sent to the front office.

[skinsmarydu]

I wasn't asked about smoking, therefore didn't lie about anything.  Like I said, my height, weight, and date of birth were the only questions I was asked.  Emphasis on only. 

Oh, wait...this doesn't apply to me.  I already pay what I'd say is a decent amount for a decent deductible, and for what I'd call better than decent care so far on the plan I have. 

That's why I've stayed out of here for awhile. 

I want elected representatives to work together & I want to see this law succeed.  "That's all I got to say about that."

[JMS]

Admiring  people deflecting 

 

How many thousands will a Bronze plan owner have to pay before their kids will have ins pay for a ear infection?....can anyone answer?

 

 

I'm unsure of what your point is.

 

Working class people don't need insurance?   Working class people should pay as they go,  only the poor and  weathy folks benifit from having insurance?.

 

Or is your suggestion that catastrophic insurance is of lesser concern than coverage for ear infections?

 

Or perhaps your point is Obama didn't go far enough and what is covered by insurance plans should be much much more regulated?

 

That when poor folks couldn't get any insurance... they were better off because now they can potentially choose a plan which wouldn't cover ear examinations?

 

It's hard to make your statement fit into any coherant critism of Obamacare.

[twa]

Can you?

Answer's complicated, isn't it?

Here's a simpler one:

Can you actually state your point?

 

No I can't, but from what I see it is thousands before they pay a dime for sick visits

 

My point is the promises made to pass this POS are far from the reality.

 

JMS....the poor are on Medicaid.....of course who is poor is complicated now isn't it?

[skinsmarydu]

JMS....the poor are on Medicaid.....of course who is poor is complicated now isn't it?

Since there are more uninsured in your state, I'm gonna guess it's more of your peeps?

them damn glass houses

[chipwhich]

I'm unsure of what your point is.

 

Working class people don't need insurance?   Working class people should pay as they go,  only the poor and  weathy folks benifit from having insurance?.

 

Or is your suggestion that catastrophic insurance is of lesser concern than coverage for ear infections?

 

Or perhaps your point is Obama didn't go far enough and what is covered by insurance plans should be much much more regulated?

 

That when poor folks couldn't get any insurance... they were better off because now they can potentially choose a plan which wouldn't cover ear examinations?

 

It's hard to make your statement fit into any coherant critism of Obamacare.

 

Now you are flip flopping from yesterday.  Learning the difference between a copay and a deductible has taught you well, just left you without any real defense.

them damn glass houses

 

Mary once your hubby gets nailed with that high deductible plan, you will be in here with your torch and pitchfork.  Trust me.

[skinsmarydu]

We've already checked, and we're good.  His company isn't changing anything next year, and our doctors are still good on our plan. 

I said we pay a decent amount.  I didn't say it was a small decent amount.  And it's only mine we pay. 

I agree, for now things are fine for us.  We're not complaining...for now.  So getting all worked up about something that, for now is just fine...well, that just wouldn't be good for my health.  

[JMS]

That's only because of the big migration to high deductible plans which greatly lowers rates to consumers while increase consumers out of pocket costs significantly.  High deductible plans have quadrupled in that time.

 

:doh:   any source for that statement?    any what so ever?

 

So your thought is that prior to Obamacare when there was less minimum coverage requirements folks were less likely to find high deductible plans attractive.   But now under obamacare with benifits ceilings are gone and manditory coverage; folks are crowding into those plans?    That makes no sense...

[chipwhich]

We've already checked, and we're good.  His company isn't changing anything next year, and our doctors are still good on our plan. 

I said we pay a decent amount.  I didn't say it was a small decent amount.  And it's only mine we pay. 

I agree, for now things are fine for us.  We're not complaining...for now.  So getting all worked up about something that, for now is just fine...well, that just wouldn't be good for my health.

 

Well don't worry about it, we will all end up in the same boat of crappy health plans at some point.  Obamacare isn't the reason for high deductible plans existing, it's just accelerating the number of people who will be purchasing it.

[JMS]

JMS....the poor are on Medicaid.....of course who is poor is complicated now isn't it?

 

Yes poor people were covered by Medicaid in the status quoe system.    The 50 million folks who had no insurance were the working class folks who were not poor enough to get Medicaid benifits.    Obamacare expands Medicaid to cover some of thse folks,  and send many others into the commerical marketplace with subsidies for private insurance.

[chipwhich]

:doh:   any source for that statement?    any what so ever?

 

So your thought is that prior to Obamacare when there was less minimum coverage requirements folks were less likely to find high deductible plans attractive.   But now under obamacare with benifits ceilings are gone and manditory coverage; folks are crowding into those plans?    That makes no sense...

 

What I don't know about Obamacare, and am curious about, is if anybody that purchases a high deductible plan from the exchange can also get a Health Savings Account to allow the deductible to be paid pre tax.

 

http://www.memphis.edu/mlche/pdfs/news_articles/high_deductible_health_insurance_2013_10_27.pdf

 

http://www.pwc.com/us/en/health-industries/behind-the-numbers/health-cost-deflators-high-deductible-plans.jhtml

 

http://www.dallasnews.com/business/personal-finance/headlines/20131018-employers-push-health-care-savings-accounts-consumer-groups-wary.ece

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/sallypipes/2012/05/28/how-high-deductible-plans-lead-to-low-healthcare-spending/

 

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/washington/2011-05-30-health-care-deductibles-hospital-bills-doctors_n.htm

[JMS]

Now you are flip flopping from yesterday.  Learning the difference between a copay and a deductible has taught you well, just left you without any real defense.

 

How exactly am I flip flopping?   I think I've defended every point to such an extent you've accepted my evidence without question;  with the exception of the lawyer's driving our system... your assertion which we disagreed upon..

 

I don't think I've flip flopped at all....   Although you do have me considering your lawyer position..

[chipwhich]

So your thought is that prior to Obamacare when there was less minimum coverage requirements folks were less likely to find high deductible plans attractive.   But now under obamacare with benifits ceilings are gone and manditory coverage; folks are crowding into those plans?    That makes no sense...

 

No Employers, (Me) find High Deductible plans VERY attractive because I can provide insurance to my employees for CHEAP.  Now my employees think the high deductible plans suck, but in my case, I pay the deductible for them and still save money.

I feel sorry for any struggling family who gets the joy of this "insurance".  Sticker shock.

[JMS]

What I don't know about Obamacare, and am curious about, is if anybody that purchases a high deductible plan from the exchange can also get a Health Savings Account to allow the deductible to be paid pre tax.

 

http://www.memphis.edu/mlche/pdfs/news_articles/high_deductible_health_insurance_2013_10_27.pdf

 

http://www.pwc.com/us/en/health-industries/behind-the-numbers/health-cost-deflators-high-deductible-plans.jhtml

 

http://www.dallasnews.com/business/personal-finance/headlines/20131018-employers-push-health-care-savings-accounts-consumer-groups-wary.ece

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/sallypipes/2012/05/28/how-high-deductible-plans-lead-to-low-healthcare-spending/

 

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/washington/2011-05-30-health-care-deductibles-hospital-bills-doctors_n.htm

 

Even the "high decuctable plans" under obamacare must cover basic doctor visits,  free visits for preventitive care;   be devoid of life time limits,  and annual limits on benifits.     So the "High deductable plans"  aren't nearly as spartan as they once were.

 

I have a healthcare savings account, and used it for certain doctor visits for my daughter which were not covered under my previous plan.   Those visits are now covered though.    Not sure if it's just a different plan thing or an obamacare thing though..

[Larry]

Or is your [twa's] suggestion that catastrophic insurance is of lesser concern than coverage for ear infections?

I will point out that if that were his point, that the lower class would likely benefit a whole lot more from a plan that covers ear infections (and broken bones, and colds and flu, and cholesterol screening, and vaccinations, and things like that), than from a plan that covers major medical events, but only after said lower class pays a third of his annual salary, first, then I'd be agreeing with him. (And have stated that position, previously, in this thread.)

But then, I have trouble with the dual assertions that Obamacare doesn't pay a dime for anything until after the poor is bankrupt, AND that it's outrageously expensive.

To me, the fact that these plans cost so much is an indication that they DO cover things, before the insured goes bankrupt. If they didn't, then they'd be cheaper.

But I've been saying since this debate started that I think that, to the poor, the un- or under-insured, that no-deductible coverage for the basic (and cheap) things would be vastly more helpful than coverage for cardiac bypass surgery. Simply because people get colds a lot more often than they have cardiac bypass.

What I don't know about Obamacare, and am curious about, is if anybody that purchases a high deductible plan from the exchange can also get a Health Savings Account to allow the deductible to be paid pre tax.

I certainly haven't seen anything that says they can't. (Admitting that I'm on my way out the door, and haven't got time to read your links.)

Now, as to how many of the (people who will be going to the exchanges demographic) have the money to put into such accounts, I suspect that's not that big a number.

No Employers, (Me) find High Deductible plans VERY attractive because I can provide insurance to my employees for CHEAP.  Now my employees think the high deductible plans suck, but in my case, I pay the deductible for them and still save money.

I feel sorry for any struggling family who gets the joy of this "insurance".  Sticker shock.

Unfortunately, you're looking at a "person who used to have no deductible, and now that have a high deductible (and somebody else is pocketing the savings from the switch), and they hate it" . . .

. . . and applying those feelings to "people who didn't have insurance at all, and now they have a high deductible plan, and they are pocketing the savings from choosing that plan".

[JMS]

No Employers, (Me) find High Deductible plans VERY attractive because I can provide insurance to my employees for CHEAP.  Now my employees think the high deductible plans suck, but in my case, I pay the deductible for them and still save money.

I feel sorry for any struggling family who gets the joy of this "insurance".  Sticker shock.

 

If you are a small buisiness then I would think you would embrace Obamacare.   (1)  You can get insurance and can't get priced out of that insurance if somebody get's sick.  (2)  Pre-existing conditions are gone.  (3)   They addressed bankrupcies which most effected small business owners and employees due to being under insured..

 

If your argument is the status quoe system was working for you,  then that's fine....   The old system was systemically broken and didn't work for most.     The new system under Obamacare is a modest step towards having a functioning healthcare system.   We are far away from the end to healthcare reform in this country.

[twa]

The ACA plans are not HSA eligible that I have seen

 

JMS....how much will a person pay before a sick visit to the Dr is even partially covered?

 

how much will they pay for precsrips before ins pays a dime?

[JMS]

To me, the fact that these plans cost so much is an indication that they DO cover things, before the insured goes bankrupt. If they didn't, then they'd be cheaper.

 

 

 

Absolutely right.   There is free preventative care checkups in Obamacare.   There are no more annual or lifetime ceilings to benifits.   There are a plethora of other things which must be covered in everybody's plan.    The idea folks plans prior to Obamacare were more comprehensive or more fully featured is arguing the exception rather than the rule.   That might be true for less than 2% of Americans.

 

Likewise the argument insurance is going to bankrupt poor folks before they can benifit from it is nonsensical. 

 

The one critism of Obamacare which I would like to explore is the tax on cadilac plans which is set to go into effect in 2018.    From what I'm reading the tax is on the companies...  is that right?     The right wing whackadoodles who have been misleading at every turn on this law are saying this is about limiting services to the wealthy... which makes no sense to me.     But if they are truely taxing companies  40% of the cost of the employee plans over say some sort of threashhold... ( plans over say 4500  get the 40% tax on the portion over the threashold )...   How could the net effect be anything other than to pursuade companies from using these cadilac plans?

 

I'm still researching this..

[JMS]

The ACA plans are not HSA eligible that I have seen

 

JMS....how much will a person pay before a sick visit to the Dr is even partially covered?

 

how much will they pay for precsrips before ins pays a dime?

 

TWA  if you get insurance from the expansiion of Medicaid,  or if you get private insurance with subsidies from the government then you might be right.     However,  you are then also a pretty poor person who probable pays no income tax and most likely Heathcare Savings Accounts wouldn't help you much anyway as the distiction between pretax and post tax dollars is less meaningful  for folks who don't pay much taxes..

 

However if you have private insurance which you fully pay for...  your insurance is still ACA plan,   subject to it's mandates;  and then certainly you could use the HSA.    As I said,  I've got one.    It's only worth it to me though because I knew I would incure thousands of dollars of healthcare costs from my daughter which weren't covered by my plan and I knew that in advance.

 

As for How much will somebody have to pay..   That's question cannot be answered because poor folks who get subsidies just like folks who don't have a choice and can pick from different plans...    You would have to know which plan the guy picked to answer your question.

Edited December 3, 2013 by JMS

[chipwhich]

As for How much will somebody have to pay..   That's question cannot be answered because poor folks who get subsidies just like folks who don't have a choice and can pick from different plans...    You would have to know which plan the guy picked to answer your question.

 

Well I can tell you they will have to pay more than they pay now, which is why I assume many will "opt out" of Obamacare.

 

It's cheaper for me to pay for my kids ear infection with cash than it is to pay a monthly premium, and a deductible upwards of $12,000.

Edited December 3, 2013 by chipwhich

[twa]

TWA  if you get insurance from the expansiion of Medicaid,  or if you get private insurance with subsidies from the government then you might be right.     However,  you are then also a pretty poor person who probable pays no income tax and most likely Heathcare Savings Accounts wouldn't help you much anyway as the distiction between pretax and post tax dollars is less meaningful  for folks who don't pay much taxes..

 

However if you have private insurance which you fully pay for...  your insurance is still ACA plan,   subject to it's mandates;  and then certainly you could use the HSA.    As I said,  I've got one.    It's only worth it to me though because I knew I would incure thousands of dollars of healthcare costs from my daughter which weren't covered by my plan and I knew that in advance.

 

As for How much will somebody have to pay..   That's question cannot be answered because poor folks who get subsidies just like folks who don't have a choice and can pick from different plans...    You would have to know which plan the guy picked to answer your question.

 

Medicaid is a separate deal

 

Since subsidies are available up to 400% of the poverty level the HSA factor matters for many ....especially to the self employed which pay S/E tax on gross income(which a HSA reduces pre tax)

 

Calling private ins outside the bronze-platinum plans ACA plans is wrong,they may be compliant but they are not ACA plans

 

do you know what your rate increase on your HSA plan will be to become ACA compliant?

[Larry]

Well I can tell you they will have to pay more than they pay now, which is why I assume many will "opt out" of Obamacare.

Really?

How much does this hypothetical person, (concerning whom we have been given no information whatsoever), have to pay, right now?

 

It's cheaper for me to pay for my kids ear infection with cash than it is to pay a monthly premium, and a deductible upwards of $12,000.

 

Would it be silly for me to ask where you're getting this "deductible upwards of $12,000" from? 

[Larry]

----------

Medicaid is a separate deal

Funny. I was under the impression that the Medicaid expansion was part of Obamacare.

 

Since subsidies are available up to 400% of the poverty level the HSA factor matters for many ....especially to the self employed which pay S/E tax on gross income(which a HSA reduces pre tax)

 

Really?  HSA contributions don't count as income for purposes of FICA calculations? 

 

I'm not 100% certain that's not true, but it sure would be surprising, to me. 

 

Calling private ins outside the bronze-platinum plans ACA plans is wrong,they may be compliant but they are not ACA plans

 

Funny, I was under the impression that pretty much all plans had to comply with Obamacare's mandates.  Kinda thought that was the excuse being given for why so many people's insurance are being cancelled. 

 

 

do you know what your rate increase on your HSA plan will be to become ACA compliant?

 

Coulda sworn that, one sentence ago, you were asserting that such plans don't even have to be compliant.  Even used pretty colors to try to make that claim.

[ABQCOWBOY]

At the end of the day, I am still stuck on how you get young people to sign up for this?   If you don't get those, you fail.  What is the incentive for those young people to sign up? 

 

I don't see it.

[Larry]

At the end of the day, I am still stuck on how you get young people to sign up for this?   If you don't get those, you fail.  What is the incentive for those young people to sign up? 

 

I don't see it.

Haven't you heard? Obama is gonna throw people in jail if they don;t sign up.

At least, that was the basis for the claims that the law was unconstitutional.

----------

Having got that out of the way, though, . . . .

As I understand it, they very well might not (sign up) this year. As I understand it, the insurance plans are kinda expensive (because of various mandates designed to make plans cheaper for some people, at the expense of making them more expensive, on others). And the penalty for not signing up isn't very big.

(And I could also see some people deciding to gamble, and to hope that the penalty gets repealed, before it becomes effective. Or similar excuses being used to justify not spending money, right now.)

I'm not gonna be surprised at all, if complience isn't rather low. At least for 2014. And I would expect young people to be the main component in that demographic.