fansince62 Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 you missed my opoint......1) the "deep strategic thinkers" on our board (or the dem party for that matter) have no plan. the arbitrarily pointed criticisms don't address the larger picture. 2) nation states that fund, provide safe transit, provide training grounds, supply information, move weapons, station agents around the globe, etc., etc., to the terrorist network certainly are part of the problem. and they are certainly contributing factors to ANY terrorist acts (no matter how pleasing these acts may be to you as heart-felt and "understandable" expressions of the down trodden peoples of the world attempting to shed the hegemonistic yolk of American imperialism - instead of the gentler, kinder, more loving "It takes a Village" world view of international comity, love and support for Ramses/Trojans market shares). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 Ahhh, so they said it, but didnt mean it, and now they say it and do mean it? You are right though. There are other people we should free. Are you agreeing with me that North Korea should be next in the crosshairs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackC Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 North Korea in the crosshairs? Sure why not! We are the rulers of the world right? Can't we do Iran next while we're in the neighborhood! Once you start to lie like the Bushies clearly have, it will always be tough to tell when they're lying again. For now I will use the following test. The Bushies are lying if their lips are moving! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SkinsHokie Fan Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 My goodness the left's thinking is just embarrasing. What is funny is A) nobody on this board or in the left in general has visited Iraq since the end of the war to make these claims AND THIS IS HUGE. There was a poll released last week by Zogby int'l sponsored by the American Enterprise Institute I believe. The results from the poll were downright shocking. About 7 out of 10 of the population in Iraq believe that Iraq will be better off in 5 years, about 30 percent believe MUCH BETTER off. Take a look at the data yourself. The words quagmire, mess and whatever are nonsense. I am heading over to the Middle East after graduation and can't wait to go into Iraq and see what a "mess" this place is. FOUND THE DATA SEE FOR YOURSELF: http://www.zogby.com/search/ReadNews.dbm?ID=734 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggoDrill Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 Originally posted by fansince62 ) nation states that fund, provide safe transit, provide training grounds, supply information, move weapons, station agents around the globe, etc., etc., to the terrorist network certainly are part of the problem. and they are certainly contributing factors to ANY terrorist acts Hmm .... So the big strategic thinkers on the right are better? You took out the Baathists, who at least kept the muslim fundamentalists under control. Now Iraq is swarming with them. Great work! Afghanistan is an unsecured war zone as well, still swarming with Taliban sympathizers. The madrasas are still churning out the jihadists. Exactly how are made safer by bombing Afghanistan and Iraq to smithereens and pissing off the entire Middle East? Exactly how many Al Queda senior leaders have we apprehended by spending billions of dollars a day in Iraq? The twists of reason and logic you rightists are reaching for these days borders on dark comedy. Yeah, you guys have a BRILLIANT strategy: Bankrupt our country to rebuild one we shouldn't have invaded/demolished in the first place, all because of allegations that haven proven to be misleading, if not bald-faced lies. Sure wish I could be a brilliant big thinker like ol' Dubya! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 The lefties idea of security is to hide our head in the sand and hope they dont hurt us again. But if they do, we should try and find out why they hate us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackC Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 Originally posted by SkinsHokie Fan My goodness the left's thinking is just embarrasing. What is funny is A) nobody on this board or in the left in general has visited Iraq since the end of the war to make these claims AND THIS IS HUGE. There was a poll released last week by Zogby int'l sponsored by the American Enterprise Institute I believe. The results from the poll were downright shocking. About 7 out of 10 of the population in Iraq believe that Iraq will be better off in 5 years, about 30 percent believe MUCH BETTER off. Take a look at the data yourself. The words quagmire, mess and whatever are nonsense. I am heading over to the Middle East after graduation and can't wait to go into Iraq and see what a "mess" this place is. FOUND THE DATA SEE FOR YOURSELF: http://www.zogby.com/search/ReadNews.dbm?ID=734 How do you know if any "liberals" have been to Iraq? I would bet some have been there for sure. As for your little survey: Iraq being better off is not the point at all. In fact it has little to do with anything I've said. It's not the point my friend. The fact that you and those RWW's around can't undertand this is kind of "embarrasing". I guess they don't teach logic in schools these days! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SkinsHokie Fan Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 Simply put we are a much safer country today then on September 12th, 2001. To say this war has been bungled or mis managed is absolutley absurd. The Taliban is on the run. Peshawar, Pakistan once a haven for overt Taliban activity has seen that activity disapear. No longer in the streets there are people just selling Bin Laden posters or overtly helping people. It has to be done in hiding and done in fear. The rest of the Middle East is slowly realizing this reality. Are they pissed? Sure. But they got nowhere to go now. No Al Qaeda recruiter on the street corner. Fear that if they mess around we'll blow them to smitherines. United States interests were attacked almost yearly from 1993-2001. This administration is putting an end to that and hopefully will begin to develop a new middle east. The culture of blame and hate out their sickens me. We as Muslims still haven't taken responsibility for our actions and are still trying to settle 600 year old scores. Those who have moved on (i.e Turks) have managed to somewhat prosper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 You're right Jack, I dont give sh!t about whether or not Iraq is better off. I do, however, care and know that WE are better off with Saddam out of power. Both short term and mnore importantly in the longterm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SkinsHokie Fan Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 Jack I dont think this is embarrasing at all. In fact I am one of the few who have advocated dropping support for all the governments out there and allowing large scale revolution to take place. This whole notion of stability is a load of bull. Stability in the middle east has been poor economies, poor education, corrupt rulers, and priorites misplaced. There is a reason the Muslim world is in a 700 year old rut. And this because of flawed governments, blaming everything on colonialism and Isreal, and allowing those that are only concerned with self power (i.e Bin Laden) to prosper. The biggest thing in that poll is how few people have gone to Friday prayers. That really says something. I.E how fairly unreligious many Muslims are. Its just a convienet excuse for Bin Laden and Saddam to rally the masses to their sides. The tide is turning though and soon we will be rid of these pathetic leaders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Mike Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 Originally posted by RiggoDrill Just so we're keeping track: --No WMD's --No connection between Saddam and 9/11. Georgie said it himself! Without a teleprompter even! --Billions of dollars being spent every day on people who don't like or appreciate us, to rebuild their economy by bankrupting ours. --We fought a war because there were ALLEGATIONS of meetings between the secular Baathists and a handfull of Al Queda operatives. Now we are CERTAIN that Iraq is swarming with Al Queda operatives and other fundamentalist muslim zealots who have come in droves to attack us while we're tied down and spread thin. It's really amusing to watch all you rightists squirm and pretend we invaded for humanistic reasons. Right. Like you guys are champions of the oppressed. :rotflmao: Just so we're keeping track: Banned mobile chemical weapons labs found. Banned Centrifuge parts and research documents that were hidden turned over. It may very well be that Saddam did get rid of the weapons themselves but it is crystal clear he was hiding the means of re-starting his programs as soon as the inspectors were gone. There is an old saying, give a man a fish and feed him for a day, teach him to fish and feed him for life. The point is, the ability to produce more weapons is more important than the weapons themselves. Connections HAVE been found between Saddam and Al Queda, frankly more than I would expect. Not because I do not believe the connections existed, but because they are not exactly going to advertise it or make the connections easy to find. What do you expect? An 8x10 glossy of Saddam and Bin Laden having tea? Further more, PLO terrorist training camps were found and it is common knowledge that Saddam funded the PLO. Terrorism is terrorism and we said in the beginning that we were going after all terrorists and the Nations that support them. The common people of Iraq are happy we are there. Yes they have issues with the way we are doing things but we are working things out and progress is being made. The cost of re-building Iraq pails in comparison to the cost of letting the UN inspectors declare Iraq clean only for Iraq to rebuild it's programs and start trouble again and it pails in comparison to the cost of letting Iraq continue to destabilize the region and threaten the worlds oil supply. Bin Laden has been telling his supporters that we are weak and will run away from a fight. We need to prove him wrong. Those "fundamentalist muslim zealots who have come in droves to attack us" did not just appear out of thin air. They are the same people who would be joining Al Queda and plotting to attack us here in the US if they were not fighting us there. That is what is meant by the statement "Bring them on". If they want a fight then let them fight our army, far away from our homeland. As an independent I find these partisan attacks from both sides to be a distraction from the real issues, primarily the defense of this country. But I will say that I find the the complete lack of responsibility from the left to act on the human rights issues that they so often harp on to be reprehensible. No one is pretending we attacked purely for "humanistic reasons" but it CANNOT BE DENIED that those reasons give extra strength to the argument to invade. The same leftists that were calling the invasion an attack on the people of Iraq conveniently ignore the fact that Saddam is responsible for the death of over 3 million arabs. How many more people would have had to suffer under his rule had we not invaded? This war, however costly or difficult was necessary. End of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackC Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 Originally posted by SkinsHokie Fan Simply put we are a much safer country today then on September 12th, 2001. To say this war has been bungled or mis managed is absolutley absurd. Simply put that is just your opinion. A lot of people including me do not agree with your postions. You're welcome to live in the world of Bush denial if you choose. After all this is still America until Aschcroft shows up at your door. Mike, You speak for the "common" people of Iraq? Wow had did you get that gig! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggoDrill Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 Originally posted by Kilmer17 The lefties idea of security is to hide our head in the sand and hope they dont hurt us again. But if they do, we should try and find out why they hate us. No, the lefties idea of security is not to shoot yourself in arse diplomatically, militarily and economically by starting unnecessary wars based on false and dishonest premises towards dubious ends. This administration's idea of security is to force feed the public the idiotic premise that wasting billions of dollars in Iraq is somehow keeping us safe. And what will happen to that premise if one loony jihadist sets a bomb off here at home? Remember that the 9/11 terrorists only had box cutters. Seems to be a matter of when, not if, that will happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 Alot of people do agree with you Jack. Just not the majority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Mike Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 Originally posted by JackC Simply put that is just your opinion. A lot of people including me do not agree with your postions. You're welcome to live in the world of Bush denial if you choose. After all this is still America until Aschcroft shows up at your door. Mike, You speak for the "common" people of Iraq? Wow had did you get that gig! Cut the sarcasm. I can just as easily ask YOU what gives you the right to speak for the common people. The FACT is that this has been shown in polls there and has been commonly reported by those who have gone out and asked the people how thy feel. The fact is, there is more to support my position than yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackC Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 Originally posted by Kilmer17 Alot of people do agree with you Jack. Just not the majority. I guess we will see in just over a year my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggoDrill Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 Originally posted by Mad Mike As an independent I find these partisan attacks from both sides to be a distraction from the real issues, primarily the defense of this country. .... This war, however costly or difficult was necessary. End of story. Well, for a supposed independent, you sure speak the Bush party line with aplomb. If I wanted to read the hollow, fear-based rationale you put forth, I could simply tune into Fox News. Yawn. Next contestant. And, no, the story has not ended. The mess we have gotten ourselves in militarily, diplomatically and economically has just begun. You get what you ask for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackC Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 Originally posted by Mad Mike Cut the sarcasm. I can just as easily ask YOU what gives you the right to speak for the common people. The FACT is that this has been shown in polls there and has been commonly reported by those who have gone out and asked the people how thy feel. The fact is, there is more to support my position than yours. I don't believe some polls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Mike Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 Originally posted by JackC I don't believe some polls. So you only believe the polls that support your position? That's not very rational. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Mike Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 Originally posted by RiggoDrill Well, for a supposed independent, you sure speak the Bush party line with aplomb. If I wanted to read the hollow, fear-based rationale you put forth, I could simply tune into Fox News. Yawn. Next contestant. And, no, the story has not ended. The mess we have gotten ourselves in militarily, diplomatically and economically has just begun. You get what you ask for. It just so happens that I agree with them on SOME issues. This is one of them. I also dissagree with the WAY Bush presented the need for this war. He is a terrible comunicator. I also dissagree with the need for the size of the Bush tax cut and many other issues unrealated to the war. I view the idea of towing a party line to be an excuse to shut off your brain. Don't try to lable me otherwise. You don't know me well enough for that. And Just for the record, I can just as easily call your position that "The mess we have gotten ourselves in militarily, diplomatically and economically has just begun." a "hollow, fear-based rationale". Frankly, you have not backed up your position with any facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggoDrill Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 Originally posted by Mad Mike And Just for the record, I can just as easily call your position that "The mess we have gotten ourselves in militarily, diplomatically and economically has just begun." a "hollow, fear-based rationale". Frankly, you have not backed up your position with any facts. What facts do you need? You could start with the obvious: Economically we're ALREADY running gigantic deficits, which devalues our #1 export: The dollar, the demand for which fuels international investment in our economy. Militarily, we're ALREADY caught footing an ever-increasing bill in Iraq, because ... Diplomatically we failed before the war to work with allies we've had for 58 years. It's not like the Europeans are exactly eager to help us, are they? Unless you call renting Polish troops by buying their supplies an "Alliance". Moreover, I don't fear much these days. I feared the path we were taking by invading Iraq. I did what I could to try to stop the war. Now that all the armchair warmongers have gotten their way, all I can do is shake my head and watch it happen ... and eventually my children will have to pay for it. As I said, you get what you ask for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Mike Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 Diplomatically we failed before the war to work with allies we've had for 58 years. It's not like the Europeans are exactly eager to help us, are they? Unless you call renting Polish troops by buying their supplies an "Alliance". What allies? France and Germany? They had huge oil contracts with Iraq. France was a major military supplier. It is they who failed to work with us to back up the UN resolution that they signed. Ask the french people about 9/11 and they will tell you we did it ourselves to set up the war. Yeah, these are the rational people I want to guide our foreign policy. And in case you havent noticed, the European Union has it's own agenda to devalue the dollar and pump up the Euro. Not exactly the kind of allies I would trust with the security or economic strength of the United States. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 Why do liberals want to let foreign countries decide what's best for the US? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Mike Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 Kilmer17, please, lets try to stay away from the partisan attacks on this. It gets in the way of rational thought. This is my problem with the party system as it is now. It creates divisiveness and gets in the way of confronting the issues on there own merrit. Lets just ask why anyone would want to let foreign countries decide what's best for the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydevil Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 Seriously when did some leftists start caring about deficits. Isn't Keynes a hero to many of you folks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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