Gas Insert Fireplaces (educate me)

[hockeysc23]

Hey everyone,

I've been flirting with the idea of updating my basement (townhouse). Currently I have a wood burning fireplace that backs up to my laundry room which contains my gas lines, hot water heater etc.

I love having/using a fireplace but wood burning is so inefficient I feel I would get much more benefit (heat and aesthetics) by adding a gas fireplace.

I read online about gas insert fireplaces but had a hard time finding more info about what exactly it entails.

I'm assuming they rip out my original wood burning fireplace, cover up opening in the chimney then install a gas fireplace that fits right into the slot?

I'm also assuming since the back of my fireplace is in semi close proximity to my gas lines in the laundry room this would not be a huge ordeal to run gas lines? Would it be significantly more efficient (gas being cheaper than electricity) and worth the expense?

Any brands or additional things I need to know? Any other options I might want to try. I have a lot of assumptions so please feel free to correct me or inform me. I appreciate it!

[DeanCollins]

some of those inserts are so inefficient that you won't get a lot of heat of them. I installed two direct vent units in the home I'm building and one free standing direct vent.

I would not get a non-vented unit.

[hockeysc23]

some of those inserts are so inefficient that you won't get a lot of heat of them. I installed two direct vent units in the home I'm building and one free standing direct vent.

I would not get a non-vented unit.

So is it smarter to just purchase a regular gas fireplace and have them fill up the chimney and use that space? Why are they inefficient?

What is direct vent vs. non-vent? I'm assuming they need fresh air coming into the unit? Would this be easy since I already had a fireplace there?

[Stew]

Gas fireplaces in general are not very efficient heating appliances. More used for looks to tie a room together. For example, there will be a bump stop on your damper, preventing it from closing all the way... its so there isn't an accidental gas build up in the house. You would have to install a top sealing damper, and that defeats the purpose of the bump stop. Also, you don't want to go breaking your masonry chimney apart. What if you arent satisfied with gas, and you want to go back to wood burning? You then have a couple holes punched into your chimney and have compromised the integrity. I run my gas furnace on LP (liquid Petrol) and it is expensive. 900 bucks to fill my tank. I use roughly a tank a summer. Thats why I am switching to a pellet stove... or maybe just get a woodburning stove. A chord of wood is cheaper then a ton of pellets i believe... i could be wrong. When I was a highschooler, I worked as a chimney sweep/rebuilder doing cast in place chimney lining on pre-civil war chimneys. Unless you are doing it for aesthetics, I wouldnt go gas fireplace set up for efficiency. Just my two cents.

[Stew]

Hey everyone,

I've been flirting with the idea of updating my basement (townhouse). Currently I have a wood burning fireplace that backs up to my laundry room which contains my gas lines, hot water heater etc.

I love having/using a fireplace but wood burning is so inefficient I feel I would get much more benefit (heat and aesthetics) by adding a gas fireplace.

I grew up with a woodburning firelpace heating my parents home. 2500 square feet, and a stove in the basement. We could start a big fire before bed and it would heat the house without being stoked until morning. I remember as a kid, Id crack my window at night in my room to get some cold air in because the house would be hot. We couldn't even sit in the room that the stove was in. Upstairs wood floors would be warm to the touch as well.

The only knock on woodburniung stove i have is that its dry heat.

[Homercles82]

Ok I sold gas stoves for 10 years. I need to know is your fireplace a masonry fireplace or a metal pre-fabricated fireplaced that is framed in a wood wall?

Gas fireplace inserts are different from gas fireplaces. A gas fireplace insert is one which 'inserts" into your existing masonry woodburning fireplace or pre-fabricated woodburning fireplace. A gas fireplace is a pre-fabricated unit that is built into a framed wooden wall.

Both types of fireplaces can be direct-vent or natural-vent. A direct-vent unit has 2 lines, one of which is used for exhaust and the other for air intake. A natural vent unit has a single line for exhaust and it draws air from the home for combustion. That may sound like a bad thing but in older homes or one which is not well sealed it helps displace cold air from drafts.

A posted above mentioned gas fireplace inserts are inefficient, which is incorrect. In fact they are up wards of 85% efficient.

Gas fireplaces tend to be inefficient, especially the cheap builder grade models installed by most builders today to save a buck but fancy up the joint. They are designed to look good and not necessarily heat a home. The cheaeper it is, the less efficient it is.

Being in a townhome I am going to assume it is a prefabricated woodburning fireplace, which are wildly inefficient, that is installed into a wood framed wall. This type of installation typically lends itself to a natural vent gas fireplace insert.

Vent-free was listed as an option above and is a great source if you are not looking for this to be your primary source of heat. A vent-free product draws it's air for combustion from the home but also emits moisture back into the air. For example when you burn 1 gallon of propane you will emit 1 gallon of moisture vapor back into the air. They are 99.9% efficient meaning that 0.1% of emissions come back into the room and for most people it is a non-issue but to those with allergies, asthma, COPD and other breathing related issues it can be a nightmare.

A vent-free logset or insert is something you purchase if you are not going to use it to heat your home for more than 3 hours a day. If you run it longer than that you run the risks of moisture buildup, emissions build up and as a side effect of the emissions build up you can get discoloring on painted walls. Vent-frees are also tempermental because if the logs are on the burner are not placed exactly right sooting can occur because combustion of the gas is incomplete.

Depending upon local codes you may need to install a damper stop or an outside air intake. You need to ask your local code office before purchasing and installing this type of system.

If you are looking for a heater that can be your primary source of heat I would recommend a vented gas fireplace insert. They can generate anywhere from 10,000 up to 50,000 BTU's of heat, typically come with a fan system installed and can be operated by remote control or thermostat.

My recommendation is to find your local hearth products store and ask them to come survey your home and see what fist best for your situation. Every home is different.

I am not sure of any stores in the Annadale area but if you want me to I can PM you some websites of products I know are high quality. They will have dealer locators on them.

[Homercles82]

Gas fireplaces in general are not very efficient heating appliances. More used for looks to tie a room together. For example, there will be a bump stop on your damper, preventing it from closing all the way... its so there isn't an accidental gas build up in the house. You would have to install a top sealing damper, and that defeats the purpose of the bump stop. Also, you don't want to go breaking your masonry chimney apart. What if you arent satisfied with gas, and you want to go back to wood burning? You then have a couple holes punched into your chimney and have compromised the integrity. I run my gas furnace on LP (liquid Petrol) and it is expensive. 900 bucks to fill my tank. I use roughly a tank a summer. Thats why I am switching to a pellet stove... or maybe just get a woodburning stove. A chord of wood is cheaper then a ton of pellets i believe... i could be wrong. When I was a highschooler, I worked as a chimney sweep/rebuilder doing cast in place chimney lining on pre-civil war chimneys. Unless you are doing it for aesthetics, I wouldnt go gas fireplace set up for efficiency. Just my two cents.

A cord of properly split and seasoned hard wood is going to be at least $150 this year. A ton of pellets is around $350 and is BTU equivelent to 2 cords of wood.

Wood burning products will never be as heat efficient as vented gas products excluding decorative gas burning fireplaces or cheap, inefficient fireplaces. Pellets are a different animal altogether.

A wood burning stove has a maximum combustion efficiency of around 80% meaning for every piece of wood you burning you will have around 20% of it left as ash and by products in the firebox. That is assuming it is properly season hard wood.

Vented Gas products have combustion efficiencies of over 90%. Vent free units have combustion efficiencies of 99.9%. Pellet stoves have combustion efficiences of over 90%. Why is a pellet stove higher than a woodstove? Because the burnpot in the stoves runs around 1500 to 2000 degrees which disintegrates everything in the wood pellets except non-combustible minerals.

[Homercles82]

For the record I do not work in the hearth industry at all anymore so there is no benefit to me for anything I have said or recommend. Think of it like the TV thread. I used to sell them, work on them and was trained in them. I know what products are good, what is crap, what is overpriced and can tell you how long to expect them to last.

I have no horse in the race anymore so to speak so I can be truthful and unbiased.

[HOF44]

I went with a ventless gas stove in our basement and it really heats the place up.

[hockeysc23]

Ok I sold gas stoves for 10 years. I need to know is your fireplace a masonry fireplace or a metal pre-fabricated fireplaced that is framed in a wood wall?

Gas fireplace inserts are different from gas fireplaces. A gas fireplace insert is one which 'inserts" into your existing masonry woodburning fireplace or pre-fabricated woodburning fireplace. A gas fireplace is a pre-fabricated unit that is built into a framed wooden wall.

Both types of fireplaces can be direct-vent or natural-vent. A direct-vent unit has 2 lines, one of which is used for exhaust and the other for air intake. A natural vent unit has a single line for exhaust and it draws air from the home for combustion. That may sound like a bad thing but in older homes or one which is not well sealed it helps displace cold air from drafts.

A posted above mentioned gas fireplace inserts are inefficient, which is incorrect. In fact they are up wards of 85% efficient.

Gas fireplaces tend to be inefficient, especially the cheap builder grade models installed by most builders today to save a buck but fancy up the joint. They are designed to look good and not necessarily heat a home. The cheaeper it is, the less efficient it is.

Being in a townhome I am going to assume it is a prefabricated woodburning fireplace, which are wildly inefficient, that is installed into a wood framed wall. This type of installation typically lends itself to a natural vent gas fireplace insert.

Vent-free was listed as an option above and is a great source if you are not looking for this to be your primary source of heat. A vent-free product draws it's air for combustion from the home but also emits moisture back into the air. For example when you burn 1 gallon of propane you will emit 1 gallon of moisture vapor back into the air. They are 99.9% efficient meaning that 0.1% of emissions come back into the room and for most people it is a non-issue but to those with allergies, asthma, COPD and other breathing related issues it can be a nightmare.

A vent-free logset or insert is something you purchase if you are not going to use it to heat your home for more than 3 hours a day. If you run it longer than that you run the risks of moisture buildup, emissions build up and as a side effect of the emissions build up you can get discoloring on painted walls. Vent-frees are also tempermental because if the logs are on the burner are not placed exactly right sooting can occur because combustion of the gas is incomplete.

Depending upon local codes you may need to install a damper stop or an outside air intake. You need to ask your local code office before purchasing and installing this type of system.

If you are looking for a heater that can be your primary source of heat I would recommend a vented gas fireplace insert. They can generate anywhere from 10,000 up to 50,000 BTU's of heat, typically come with a fan system installed and can be operated by remote control or thermostat.

My recommendation is to find your local hearth products store and ask them to come survey your home and see what fist best for your situation. Every home is different.

I am not sure of any stores in the Annadale area but if you want me to I can PM you some websites of products I know are high quality. They will have dealer locators on them.

Hey thanks for all the info! This board never ceases to amaze me with the wide variety of knowledge.

I do currently have a prefab unit in a wall. I was planning on having it professional installed and visiting ACME Stove as they are in the area and my father has purchased stuff from them before.

If you would still PM me some links though I would appreciate it.

My goal is a combination of heat for basement and aesthetics. It is only my fiancee and I in the townhouse and normally we only really want heat when we are sitting around or in the house. So I thought if we could update the basement with a more efficient better looking fireplace then we could click that on when we are down there it will look nice and help heat the space but I'm not relying on it to heat the whole house.

Sounds like best bet is just to go to a professional store and let them advise me of what is best for my situation.

Thanks for taking the time to inform me, I appreciate it.

[Homercles82]

Hey thanks for all the info! This board never ceases to amaze me with the wide variety of knowledge.

I do currently have a prefab unit in a wall. I was planning on having it professional installed and visiting ACME Stove as they are in the area and my father has purchased stuff from them before.

If you would still PM me some links though I would appreciate it.

My goal is a combination of heat for basement and aesthetics. It is only my fiancee and I in the townhouse and normally we only really want heat when we are sitting around or in the house. So I thought if we could update the basement with a more efficient better looking fireplace then we could click that on when we are down there it will look nice and help heat the space but I'm not relying on it to heat the whole house.

Sounds like best bet is just to go to a professional store and let them advise me of what is best for my situation.

Thanks for taking the time to inform me, I appreciate it.

No problem. I will be PMing you some information soon.

[Stew]

A cord of properly split and seasoned hard wood is going to be at least $150 this year. A ton of pellets is around $350 and is BTU equivelent to 2 cords of wood.

Wood burning products will never be as heat efficient as vented gas products excluding decorative gas burning fireplaces or cheap, inefficient fireplaces. Pellets are a different animal altogether.

A wood burning stove has a maximum combustion efficiency of around 80% meaning for every piece of wood you burning you will have around 20% of it left as ash and by products in the firebox. That is assuming it is properly season hard wood.

Vented Gas products have combustion efficiencies of over 90%. Vent free units have combustion efficiencies of 99.9%. Pellet stoves have combustion efficiences of over 90%. Why is a pellet stove higher than a woodstove? Because the burnpot in the stoves runs around 1500 to 2000 degrees which disintegrates everything in the wood pellets except non-combustible minerals.

Nice, I really appreciate that info on the pellets! Yeah the only gas fire places I ever came accross were the décorative ones that really wernt made for heating, more aesthetics, and punched into exhisting masonry chimneys.. I also have a gas furnace at my house, but i don't use it bc LP cost me about 900 to fill my tank. I think Ill def get the pellet stove. Do you have a brand you prefer?

When you say vented gas products that are 90% efficient, you are talking about gas furnace, and not the gas logs... right?

[Homercles82]

Nice, I really appreciate that info on the pellets! Yeah the only gas fire places I ever came accross were the décorative ones that really wernt made for heating, more aesthetics, and punched into exhisting masonry chimneys.. I also have a gas furnace at my house, but i don't use it bc LP cost me about 900 to fill my tank. I think Ill def get the pellet stove. Do you have a brand you prefer?

When you say vented gas products that are 90% efficient, you are talking about gas furnace, and not the gas logs... right?

No, when I say 90% I am talking sealed vented fireplace inserts. They have a combustion efficiency of around 90%. Their overall usually is 65 to 85% because they lose some heat up the venting along with natural vents using indoor air for combustion air purposes.

I recommend products from www.quadrafire.com as they were one of the least serviced brands we carried where I worked. They offer gas, wood and pellet stoves and inserts.

Pellet stoves are great heaters to use. They have very low clearance requirements, are generally clean (if you use high quality HARDWOOD pellets and not the crap from Lowes or WalMart), and put out a good amount of heat.

The downsides are;

1. Require electricity. If you lose power you lose your stove because they are a sealed combustion chamber that requires 2 fans to operate properly, a combustion fan that feeds air into the burn pot and an exhaust fan to keep all fumes moving out the chimney. Some units use 1 fan to accomplish both tasks which is just fine. They also require power for the automatic igniters and the auger which feeds the pellets into the burn pot.
   
2. Little to NO radiant heat. Because the fire is contained in a small firepot they do not heat the outside of the stove up like a woodstove does. You get your heat almost exclusively from the convection fan which requires power.
   
3. They are very fuel dependent. Unlike a woodstove where you can eek out some heat from soft woods or unseasoned wood if you try to burn crappy pellets (Lowers, Walmart, any NON-100% hard wood pellet) you create multiple problems for yourself. You get a lot less heat, you create much more mess in the burnpot (more on that in a bit), and you will waste money because you will still turn around and pay $350 for the good stuff. Sometimes the cheap pellets will not even light AND YOU CANNOT RETURN THEM EVER.
   
4. Pellets stoves MUST be cleaned at least 1 time a week. This means shutting down the stove, opening the front door and vacuuming it out thoroughly. The burnpot must be cleaned out properly as well. This usually takes around 15 to 20 minutes and requires a vacuum that can handle drywall dust. I always recommended the smallest shopvac from Lowe's with a drywall dust rating.
   
5. You cannot run them 24/7. The unit needs cool times during the day/night because it will over stress the stove.
   
6. Fans do wear out and their life span is sporadic. Some fans will last you 5 years others 1 year. It is sporadic and there is no telling how long it will last. If you get 3 years out of a fan you are doing good.
   

Pellet stoves do require a thorough 1 time a year cleaning, usually done in the spring or summer, and your manual tells you how to perform or you can pay to have this done. My shop used to charge around $225 to do this. Expect this to take 2 hours or so 1 time a year. You also need to brush the chimney at this point.

Most pellet stoves run on thermostats now or even remotes. Ultra convenient.

Some pellet stoves do burn dried and shelled corn. I never recommend this. It is dirty as all get out. You know what a byproduct of corn is? Sugar. Know what sugar does when subjected to 1500 degree heat? turns to a hard tack substance you will curse for the rest of your life.

That is all I can think of now. reply if you have more questions. Maybe I will do a winter heating megathread!?!