What type of player will Shanahan bring to DC? Let's look back at the last decade...

[Dirk Diggler]

One of the big questions on everyone’s mind is what type of players will we be going after with Mike Shanahan at the controls?

Sure, our offensive line will play better – we’ll have offensive balance and our QB will most likely play the best football of his life. If it was true for Elway, Griese, and Cutler then it will almost certainly hold true for Campbell or whichever rookie QB we land.

Rather than just hit you with a list of draft picks or free agent signings, I’ve tried to isolate MS's major additions each year going back to 1999. There’s some subjectivity involved but I’m relying primarily on scouting reports from highly regarded personnel people. As you are mostly Redskins fans, I shouldn’t need to explain the difference between Albert Haynesworth and London Fletcher. We need more of one and less of the other to get us where we need to be. Here goes:

1999: Haynesworths = CB Dale Carter

Fletchers = MLB Al Wilson ®

Record: 6-10

2000: Haynesworths = None

Fletchers = DE Lester Archambeau

Record: 11-5

2001: Haynesworths = DT Leon Lett, DT Chester McGlockton, WR Eddie Kennison

Fletchers = CB Denard Walker

Record: 8-8

2002: Haynesworths = RB Clinton Portis

Fletchers = None

Record: 9-7

2003: Haynesworths = DT Daryl Gardener

Fletchers = None

Record: 10-6

2004: Haynesworths = RB Tatum Bell ®

Fletchers = DE Marco Coleman, FS John Lynch, DT Luther Ellis

Record: 10-6

2005: Haynesworths = CB Darrent Williams ®, DT Gerard Warren, RB Maurice Clarett ®

Fletchers = DE Courtney Brown

Record: 13-3

2006: Haynesworths = QB Jay Cutler ®, WR Brandon Marshall ®, WR Javon Walker

Fletchers = DE Elvis Dumervil ® OG Chris Kuper

Record: 9-7

2007: Haynesworths = CB Dre Bly, RB Travis Henry

Fletchers = TE Daniel Graham, WR Brandon Stokley

Record 7-9

2008: Haynesworths = DT Dewayne Robertson

Fletchers = WR Eddie Royal

Record: 8-8

Clearly, he's often picked talent over intangibles when it has come to free agency and the draft. Shanny was clearly desperate to fix his defense throughout the decade. He fired a lot of DCs and burned quite a bit of Pat Bowlen's money in the process. It's not hard to see why he was let go. In 2001, he was REALLY desperate and the team spun its wheels for 2 years. However, MS did seem to learn from his mistakes earlier in the decade and started to infuse the defense with some leadership in 2004. The result? 23-9 over the next 2 seasons. And that was with Jake Plummer under center. However, starting in 2006 he infused the team with young, combustible players like Jay Cutler and Brandon Marshall and topped it off with Travis Henry. Yikes.

You will notice that most of the gambles were on the defensive side of the ball. MS had offenses that were anywhere from good to excellent and he seemed perfectly happy to have "London Fletchers" like Rod Smith, Ed McCaffery, Terrell Davis, Tom Nalen, Sterling Sharpes, etc throughout his offense. MS was able to hit on quite a few gems on the offensive line over the past decade later in the draft so don't be shocked if we go QB with #4 and address the Oline later.

Ultimately, MS has gone back and forth between the Fletchers and the Haynesworths over the years. Will he learn from his mistakes in Denver? With Snyder signing the checks, I think the temptation will always be there for MS to collect talent over substance. He's shown a tendency to in the past and I'm not sure there's anyone here to keep him in check.

[Dirk Diggler]

Edited....

[Ghost of]

Tatum Bell was a Haynesworth? really?

[Dirk Diggler]

Tatum Bell was a Haynesworth? really?

He was considered overconfident, ****y, lazy, and lacking toughness in Denver. He was then shipped off to Detroit and released after he stole from his teammate (Rudi Johnson) in 2008. That's the ultimate NFL sin.

(BTW - I'm using a very broad criterion for what I consider a Haynesworth. Obviously, AH has never been in trouble with the law except for speeding but he is fat, lazy, and stupid. Ultimately, you have to be talented first. But the above terms for Bell can fit. Some others might be: overpaid, immature, me-first rather than team-first.)

[mhearn]

He was considered overconfident, ****y, lazy, and lacking toughness in Denver. He was then shipped off to Detroit and released after he stole from his teammate (Rudi Johnson) in 2008. That's the ultimate NFL sin.

(BTW - I'm using a very broad criterion for what I consider a Haynesworth. Obviously, AH has never been in trouble with the law except for speeding but he is fat, lazy, and stupid. Ultimately, you have to be talented first. But the above terms for Bell can fit. Some others might be: overpaid, immature, me-first rather than team-first.)

what's his weight have to do with anything?..and immature maybe overpaid, isn't really all his fault.. me-first maybe but hard to tell he really does seem to back his teammates up..hell it took all season for him to come out and say he was being used wrong...that may not have been the best approach but if that's how you feel I see nothing wrong with saying it. I see that happen in the work force all the time.

[Dirk Diggler]

http://www.profootballweekly.com/2010/01/01/did-haynesworth-make-redskins-any-better

"Look at Albert Haynesworth. He is a good football player — very good, maybe the best in the league when he wants to be. But can you give him $45 million guaranteed and still get him to play his ass off? And did it make the Redskins that much better? T.O. did not make the Bills any better. That is the hard part in today's game. Everyone gets paid, but you hope the production matches the pay and that they are not a problem once they have too much. It's what Reggie White did to Green Bay. He got big money for what he did Monday through Saturday more than what he did on the field. Reggie was a professional. He could silence the locker room. He may have only been the 25th-best defensive end when the Packers paid him, but he was the best leader in the NFL. And give Ron Wolf credit; it was the right move for a young team with talent and no leadership."

[herb mul-key]

http://www.profootballweekly.com/2010/01/01/did-haynesworth-make-redskins-any-better

"Look at Albert Haynesworth. He is a good football player — very good, maybe the best in the league when he wants to be. But can you give him $45 million guaranteed and still get him to play his ass off? And did it make the Redskins that much better? T.O. did not make the Bills any better. That is the hard part in today's game. Everyone gets paid, but you hope the production matches the pay and that they are not a problem once they have too much. It's what Reggie White did to Green Bay. He got big money for what he did Monday through Saturday more than what he did on the field. Reggie was a professional. He could silence the locker room. He may have only been the 25th-best defensive end when the Packers paid him, but he was the best leader in the NFL. And give Ron Wolf credit; it was the right move for a young team with talent and no leadership."

really good point....Gibbs said he valued character over talent...I think that is the way to go in building a team...it's an art not a science and when you mix the potion correctly....you can have something special...but it takes emotional depth from the personal people and a little luck...HTTR

[jflow78]

Courtney Brown was a Fletcher?

The guy was a complete bust (under BIGGEST EVER category) and played for the Broncos for ONE season before retiring. I can understand your point, but some of those people are horrible examples.

[Bucaro]

Courtney Brown was a Fletcher?

The guy was a complete bust (under BIGGEST EVER category) and played for the Broncos for ONE season before retiring. I can understand your point, but some of those people are horrible examples.

I tend to agree. It looks like you decided the point you wanted to make then found people that fit that point rather than coming to a decision based on the people he brought in. Some are draft picks, some FA's, very different evaluation processes (much less personal information on draft picks). You left off a lot of starters from his teams that he drafted or picked up that fit the "team" criteria (and a bad apple or two as well)

[Dirk Diggler]

Courtney Brown was a Fletcher?

The guy was a complete bust (under BIGGEST EVER category) and played for the Broncos for ONE season before retiring. I can understand your point, but some of those people are horrible examples.

You wow me with your lack of understanding. If you find these examples to be "horrible" then you might want to brush up on your football knowledge.

Courtney Brown may have disappointed as a #1 overall pick, but that's irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion. He was solid, if unspectacular with the Browns and he was a good player for the Broncos. He only played 1 season with them because he blew out his his knee in the preseason of 2006. If you recall, Gibbs and Williams were VERY interested in Brown prior to the 2005 season and that speaks well for him.

Brown was generally solid throughout his career but his effectiveness was often limited by injuries. He just had crappy luck in that department. In terms of intangibles he was off the charts. He always competed hard and always prepared to win. He was mature beyond his years and was always working to improve. If that's not a "Fletcher" I don't know what is.

[Sellersfan]

You wow me with your lack of understanding. If you find these examples to be "horrible" then you might want to brush up on your football knowledge.

Courtney Brown may have disappointed as a #1 overall pick, but that's irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion. He was solid, if unspectacular with the Browns and he was a good player for the Broncos. He only played 1 season with them because he blew out his his knee in the preseason of 2006. If you recall, Gibbs and Williams were VERY interested in Brown prior to the 2005 season and that speaks well for him.

Brown was generally solid throughout his career but his effectiveness was often limited by injuries. He just had crappy luck in that department. In terms of intangibles he was off the charts. He always competed hard and always prepared to win. He was mature beyond his years and was always working to improve. If that's not a "Fletcher" I don't know what is.

Gibbs and Williams were "VERY interested" in Adam Archuleta too! So that does not speak well for him.

[Dirk Diggler]

I tend to agree. It looks like you decided the point you wanted to make then found people that fit that point rather than coming to a decision based on the people he brought in. Some are draft picks, some FA's, very different evaluation processes (much less personal information on draft picks). You left off a lot of starters from his teams that he drafted or picked up that fit the "team" criteria (and a bad apple or two as well)

Do you really recall if CB Jimmy Spencer was a bad apple in 2000? Because I don't. I tried to limit the conversation to the more prominent players but I'm more than happy to just spit out a list of Denver's FA moves since 1999 and let the rest of you decide what's what. Not that most of the people on this board even know what they're talking about...

[Dirk Diggler]

Gibbs and Williams were "VERY interested" in Adam Archuleta too! So that does not speak well for him.

It speaks well for Browns intangibles. Way to completely miss the point.

[jflow78]

You wow me with your lack of understanding. If you find these examples to be "horrible" then you might want to brush up on your football knowledge.

Courtney Brown may have disappointed as a #1 overall pick, but that's irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion. He was solid, if unspectacular with the Browns and he was a good player for the Broncos. He only played 1 season with them because he blew out his his knee in the preseason of 2006. If you recall, Gibbs and Williams were VERY interested in Brown prior to the 2005 season and that speaks well for him.

Brown was generally solid throughout his career but his effectiveness was often limited by injuries. He just had crappy luck in that department. In terms of intangibles he was off the charts. He always competed hard and always prepared to win. He was mature beyond his years and was always working to improve. If that's not a "Fletcher" I don't know what is.

Brown wasn't solid by any means:

Games tackles sacks

16 69 4.5

5 21 4.5

11 41 2

13 37 6

2 2 0

Then went to Denver as an FA

14 24 2

That's it. Where in there do you see "solid"? He was constantly injured and retired after one year in Denver because of it. You're so quick to be a **** because I point out a flaw in your arguement that you don't realize I agree that we need more people LIKE Fletcher, Brown was NOT like Fletcher. He wasn't even on the field enough to be LIKE Fletcher. I don't know if he was a jerk or lazy or whatever, but I don't want great guys who work hard and can't play as much as I don't want guys who are lazy and just want to get paid. He was a BUST as a draft pick, AND as a FA.

All I was saying was HE shouldn't be in the discussion, he IS a horrible example, regardless of how hard he worked, and it weakens your arguement. Besides, from this you'd list Randle El as a Fletcher and I'd rather have a guy that can actually do their job, such as Albert Haynesworth, than a guy who's a "great dude" but sucks at football. If I had the pick between Haynesworth and Fetcher, I'd take Fletcher every time. Not with some of the ones you've got, and Brown would be one of them.

It speaks well for Browns intangibles. Way to completely miss the point.

Gibbs was really high on Lloyd too and traded for CP too.

[Dirk Diggler]

Denver's Free Agent Acquistions since 1999:

1999: OT Tony Berti, CB Dale Carter, QB Chris Miller, DE Carl Reeves

2000: DE Lester Archambeau, QB Gus Frerotte, S Billy Jenkins, DE Kavika Pittman, CB Darryl Pounds, CB Jimmy Spencer

2001: FB Tony Carter, LB Henri Crockett, OT Todd Fordham, TE Patrick Hape, WR Eddie Kennison, DT Leon Lett, DT Chester McGlockton, C Quentin Neujahr, CB Tyrone Poole, CB Denard Walker, DE Keith Washington, Lee Woodall

2002: DT Lional Dalton, WR Rob Moore, S Izell Reese, LB Terry Killens, OT Ephraim Salaam, TE Shannon Sharpe

2003: OT Ed Ellis, S Nick Ferguson, DT Daryl Gardener, OG Heath Irwin, QB Jake Plummer

2004: DE Marco Coleman, DT Luther Ellis, OT Cornell Green, RB Garrison Hearst, WR Willie Jackson, DE Raylee Johnson, S John Lynch, QB Mike Quinn, TE OJ Santiago, CB Reggie Stevens, TE Jed Weaver

2005: TE Stephen Alexander, DE Courtney Brown, OT Anthony Clement, RB Ron Dayne, DE Ebenezer Ekuban, LB Ian Gold, DT Gerard Warren

2006: DT Amon Gordon, DE Kenard Lang, WR Javon Walker, LB Nate Webster

2007: CB Dre Bly, TE Daniel Graham, RB Travis Henry, LB Warrick Holdman, OG Montrae Hollan, LB DD Lewis, DT Alvin McKinley, QB Patrick Ramsey, P Todd Sauerbrun, WR Brandon Stokley

2008: LB Boss Bailey, WR Keary Colbert, WR Darrell Jackson, MLB Niko Koutouvides, S Marlon McCree, WR Samie Parker, DT Dewayne Robertson, C Casey Wiegmann

You can find the draft picks here:

http://www.drafthistory.com/teams/broncos.html

[Sellersfan]

It speaks well for Browns intangibles. Way to completely miss the point.

Not sure what point I missed?

Intangibles vs. being able to play at a pro level.

Lots of people on these boards have "intangibles". it doesn't make us NFL players

[redskinsguy17]

Get some badazz Olinemen for Jason Campbell and maybe Brandon Marshall at receiver and I think the Redskins could surprise a lot of people in 2010.

Shanahan and Bruce Allen better just be wild about the QBs in this draft if they want to get one at #4 overall. I think it's obvious that the Redskins should get a left tackle with the 4th pick if they've studied him intensely and think that he's going to have Pro Bowl potential for years to come. It's all about the scouting. It's about really getting to know the player you want to draft. I know one thing though. The last few years have shown that drafting a QB in the top 10 is risky business. There's no telling what you might end up with with QBs. Plenty of "sure things" have ended up being busts.

[Dirk Diggler]

Brown wasn't solid by any means:

Games tackles sacks

16 69 4.5

5 21 4.5

11 41 2

13 37 6

2 2 0

Then went to Denver as an FA

14 24 2

That's it. Where in there do you see "solid"?

Tell me what you see in these numbers for this mystery defensive lineman:

Games played/tackles/sacks

2009 12 29 4.0

2008 14 41 8.5

2007 13 32 6.0

2006 11 23 2.0

2005 14 36 3.0

2004 10 25 1.0

2003 12 21 2.5

2002 16 21 1.0

Other than 2008, you're probably not too impressed. You see a guy with questionable durability and sporadic at best sack #s. Want to venture to guess who this is? Scroll down for the answer.

It's Albert Haynesworth. He was considered the best defensive player in the league in 2007 and 2008 though the numbers hardly reflect that. If someone wanted to look only at the numbers from 2009, they'd say we had a collosal bust on our hands for 100 million. However, while he certainly disappointed - when he was healthy and motivated he was pretty damn disruptive. But if you're a toolbox who only pulls stats and expects that to somehow measure the totality of a defensive lineman, then you don't know this.

[cphil006]

Mike Shanahan has got new people working with the evaluations, player personnel, etc. Morocco Brown and Scott Campbell... He can delegate and he'll need to trust them more than himself at times... someone has to tell him no... kind of like Pioli did to Bellichick.

Yes, Shanny has the final say... but, that doesn't mean he'll blindly do his own thing... He's a smart guy. I think he'll learn to work with them rest of the FO.

[Dirk Diggler]

Not sure what point I missed?

Intangibles vs. being able to play at a pro level.

Lots of people on these boards have "intangibles". it doesn't make us NFL players

He wasn't even on the field enough to be LIKE Fletcher. I don't know if he was a jerk or lazy or whatever, but I don't want great guys who work hard and can't play as much as I don't want guys who are lazy and just want to get paid. He was a BUST as a draft pick, AND as a FA.

Brown was no Randel El, he could actually play. His productivity was limited by his injuries and by the complete lack of a supporting cast on defense. Cleveland was GOD AWFUL in the early 2000s and he was the only good player they had on that side of the ball. That also helped to keep his stats down.

But again, everyone's taking the Fletcher example way too literally. It's not as much about getting players who are iron men like Fletcher as much as it's about getting overachieving, hard-working, team-first players who live and breathe football. Talent is a given. It's a "duh" yes we need talented players. And CB was a TALENTED player who didn't live up to the hype for the reasons I mentioned.

The fact that you beat the drum for this one example, while claiming (but not pointing out) that I had "other horrible" examples shows me that you have NOTHING else.

[Dirk Diggler]

Get some badazz Olinemen for Jason Campbell and maybe Brandon Marshall at receiver and I think the Redskins could surprise a lot of people in 2010.

Brandon Marshall would be the ultimate nightmare scenario. Not only is he a complete punk-ass knucklehead, but he would cost serious $$$ and draft picks. It would show me that Snyder and Shanahan have learned NOTHING from their past mistakes.

[Sellersfan]

Brandon Marshall would be the ultimate nightmare scenario. Not only is he a complete punk-ass knucklehead, but he would cost serious $$$ and draft picks. It would show me that Snyder and Shanahan have learned NOTHING from their past mistakes.

Marshall = Portis

At least Shanahan has said no to Portis once already. Maybe Danny cant say no to his pet.

[deejaydana]

Chester McGlockton? haven't seen that name in quite a while. Part of Gruden ousting him from the Raiders was because he showed up for practice wearing a mink coat! and half-assing it. what a loser that guy was, completely lazy.

[Sellersfan]

I think this is all trivial.

Due to his long tenure with one team (he was the longest serving HC before he was fired), there is lots of info out there for ammo.

No draft/ free agency is guaranteed. We as Redskins fans know this all to well.

All teams have busts and success stories. The kid you draft can have all kinds of "intangibles" up until you pay him millions. Then you see what you get.

Even Vinny can draft decent when he has consistently had a pick in the top 6.

I'm sure Shanahan will pick better than our recent history.