Campbell, the shotgun spread, and McDaniels

[Oldfan]

I don't think that you can claim that the offensive system they run is the sole impetus for their success.

I didn't claim that, but obviously there is a correlation.

Those two teams also happen to have far and away the two best QBs in the league.

I don't agree, but that doesn't matter since both QBs have stats showing they are more effective throwing from the gun v. throwing from under center.

Add to that, the Colts had the best group of WRs during their heyday, and the Patriots do today, and you have a the elements that would work in any passing system.

But the stats for the QBs show they are more effective in the spread.

But the Patriots didn't win their championships running a shotgun spread. They won with defense and a strong running game, especially in their best season where they won the 2005 superbowl.

We must have watched different Patriots teams.

It hasn't been until they acquired Randy Moss and Wes Welker that they've opened up their offense to go 4 and 5 wide and ignore the running game.

No, that's not true. The Patriots use of the spread has been growing since Tom Moore and Peyton had success with it. Can't remember the year -- 2000 or 2001 maybe.

I think the lesson there is that you can't run a shotgun spread unless you have the superlative personnel to do it. That's something we certainly don't have.

It's just the opposite. The shotgun spread dominates the college game precisely because it doesn't require big, dominant players to win football games. Little schools, like Boise State, can compete with the former national powerhouse teams like Nebraska.

The QB catches the snap, drops one step and releases. Linemen don't have to hold their blocks for long. It is better even than the WCO in that respect.

[Spear]

I didn't follow that. Please give me a synonym for "pedestrian." I don't understand your use of the word in this context.

Campbell's ball is thrown with greater velocity. Are you saying that's a disadvantage in throwing into tighter spaces if everything else is equal?

No, I'm saying his short/medium range balls are slower than most quarterbacks with lesser power, but faster releases. I remember during the season that Zorn had commented on one of Randle El's passes as possessing the "ball speed" he'd been preaching to his quarterbacks. And if he had felt the need to preach it... well, we can interpret that how we want.

All I know is that after being used to watching Campbell throw, my eyes weren't used to following faster balls from other quarterbacks and as a result, they sometimes seemed to teleport into the hands of receivers.

[PROSCOUT]

slow dropback? sorry that isn't true, and while his release isn't Elway or Marino, neither is 90% of NFL QB's... and his release is more than fast enough for the NFL.

a slow release = Leftwich

You're correct Campbells dropback is not what is slow. It's his windup and delivery. Of course I am probably Jasons biggest fan of late because of his great attitude, but even I must say that his windup bothers me. However, its what he has, and Zorn cannot change that, only Jason can shorten his throwing motion, so he may yet work on that.

But either way, it would help if his arm is not being hit after 2.8 seconds of his dropback. Our offensive line needs to get better, no doubt and it has with Dockery and hopefully Andre Smith coming to town.

[MartinC]

I can't imagine many QBs in the league who don't prefer running plays from the shotgun. Who wants to turn their back to the line of scrimmage during a play?

A QB dropping back to pass does not have his back to the line of scrimmage. In a standard pass drop you will have your hips at right angles with the line of scrimmage i.e poining straight up the field and your trunk and shoulders twisted at the waist so that you can see the whole field without having to twist your neck.

The only time a QB would have his back to the LOS would be during play action which is why you see sacks in that situation a lot if the line allows penetration. You come out of the pkay action and Boom! (as John Madden would say) there is a linebacker right in your face and no time to make a move or get rid if the ball.

I agree 100% with Kdawg though - play action is key element of any NFL offense and particularily one like ours which - like it or not - is built off the running game.

We are just not built for a shotgun spread type offense.

[Oldfan]

No, I'm saying his short/medium range balls are slower than most quarterbacks with lesser power, but faster releases. I remember during the season that Zorn had commented on one of Randle El's passes as possessing the "ball speed" he'd been preaching to his quarterbacks. And if he had felt the need to preach it... well, we can interpret that how we want.

All I know is that after being used to watching Campbell throw, my eyes weren't used to following faster balls from other quarterbacks and as a result, they sometimes seemed to teleport into the hands of receivers.

We can't really debate this, but we are seeing different things. It seems to me that Jason's short passes are sometimes thrown too hard while the velocity on his medium range passes is just fine. It's the consistent accuracy, especially on the slants vital to the WCO, that concern me.

As for his release, I think that Al Saunders and Jim Zorn, along with Jason's hard work, have combined to eliminate the wasted motion. Jason's release is as good as it's going to get for a man with such long arms.

[Oldfan]

I agree 100% with Kdawg though - play action is key element of any NFL offense and particularily one like ours which - like it or not - is built off the running game.

We are just not built for a shotgun spread type offense.

When Tom Brady is under center, his offense is more likely to run than pass and play action is a feature. When Brady is in the Gun, he's more likely to pass and the faked delay is sometimes part of it. So, to say that "play action is a key element of any offense" is a bit deceptive.

I think it's also deceptive to say that our offense is "built off the running game." We have been a better running team in recent years by default -- because we haven't been proficient in the passing game.

I don't think there's any reason that our offense couldn't use the shotgun spread as effectively as any other formation. Zorn's offense already has some spread plays incorporated into it, nothing changes except the way the QB takes the snap.

[KDawg]

We're built for the running game because of Clinton Portis' contract.

And... The most important thing that can be said in this thread...

Campbell, no matter how much we like him, is not Tom Brady.

[Oldfan]

We're built for the running game because of Clinton Portis' contract.

And... The most important thing that can be said in this thread...

Campbell, no matter how much we like him, is not Tom Brady.

I must be slow this morning. I didn't understand either of your remarks in the context of this thread.

[KDawg]

I must be slow this morning. I didn't understand either of your remarks in the context of this thread.

You must be.

You keep bringing Brady up as an example of why playaction isn't necessary. Brady is a top QB in the NFL, Campbell isn't.

You keep saying that we should go shotgun spread, which pretty much leaves CP in the dark as far as carries goes. His contract won't allow us to cut or trade him, so when he complains the team will probably go 'boom' with him.

Simple, really.

[MartinC]

I think it's also deceptive to say that our offense is "built off the running game." We have been a better running team in recent years by default -- because we haven't been proficient in the passing game. quote]

So given as you say above that 'we have not been proficient in the passing game' while we have had a top 10 ranked rushing game you think it would be a good idea to move to an offense based on a pass first philosphy?

If Campbell really develops (or we get another QB who has developed) and say Devin Thomas becomes a legit NFL wideout along with Moss and Cooley with ARE in the slot then maybe we can start to transition to a more wide open style of offense.

[KDawg]

So given as you say above that 'we have not been proficient in the passing game' while we have had a top 10 ranked rushing game you think it would be a good idea to move to an offense based on a pass first philosphy?

If Capbell really develops (or we get another QB who has developed) and say Devin Thomas becomes a legit NFL wideout along with Moss and Cooley with ARE in the slot then maybe we can start to transition to a more wide open style of offense.

Or mix elements of a running offense, playaction passes, a 3-step/5-step/7-step under center passing game and a shotgun spread. Which, personally, I think is the best idea. Versatile and has the ability to keep a defense off-guard, which is something we need.

[MartinC]

Or mix elements of a running offense, playaction passes, a 3-step/5-step/7-step under center passing game and a shotgun spread. Which, personally, I think is the best idea. Versatile and has the ability to keep a defense off-guard, which is something we need.

I think that is pretty much what we will see this year. The WCO label is bit dated in my view most NFL offenses borrow from each other with different emphasis based on a coaches personal philosophy and the skillls of the players available.

I think most of us agree we need to get more vertical passing in our game to open up the running game and short passing game. Some of that is no doubt about scheme and play calling but a lot more is about exectution IMO.

If we call a 7 step drop that means the line have to execute in pass blocking first. LAst year it was clear Zorn lost confidence in his lines ability to do this and he stopped calling slow developing pass plays.

Receivers other than Moss have to get seperation deep and go get the ball. If we can hot some deep stuff to Thomas or Kelly that will make teams pay for rolling double coverage on Moss most plays.

Campbell then has to start putting a bit more air under his deep ball. He has got used to throwing to Moss who is probably about 5'9'' despite the height we list him at. With Kelly and Thomas both 6 foot plus he can put some more air under the deep ball and let them go get it - its an easier throw for the QB in fact.

Hit on some of these and the whole play calling starts to roll as defense have to drop a man out of the box, have to start thinking about not just covering Moss on 1st and 2nd down and Cooley on 3rd down. Portis gets more room and is more effective, which makes the play action more dangerous and you hit on some deep balls etc etc.

The real area we need to focus on for me is red zone offense. We moved the ball well last year between the 20's but kicked (or attempted at any rate) far too many field goals. Cooley catching only 1 TD was criminal.

[Oldfan]

You keep bringing Brady up as an example of why playaction isn't necessary. Brady is a top QB in the NFL, Campbell isn't.

No, I used the Patriots and Brady as my example because, in recent years, Brady has been under center about 50% of the time and in the shotgun 50%. The point I made is that play-action is only key when the QB is under center. The Brady-to-Campbell comparison is not relevant to my point.

You keep saying that we should go shotgun spread, which pretty much leaves CP in the dark as far as carries goes. His contract won't allow us to cut or trade him, so when he complains the team will probably go 'boom' with him.

I haven't advocated going to the spread full-time. The Patriots have Brady under center and use the running game more against opponents that can't stop the run. They also use it to hold leads in the fourth quarter and on short yardage situations. That makes sense to me.

As for Clinton's complaining...in Zorn's shoes, I'd have someone slap duct tape over his mouth when he comes off the field.

Not that hard to understand, Oldfan.

You're only hard to understand when you throw out those cryptic one-liners.

[Warpath11]

I agree with a point KDawg made in his first post in this thread. JC does not make timley decisions to be used in a shot-gun spread offense. I can guarantee Brady knows where he is going with the ball long before the ball is snapped (Id say this is the case 70% of the time). Brady has an ability to read a defense, pre snap, that I am afraid JC will never have thus JC will never be able to run a successful shot gun spread offense.

JC seems easily confused with pre-snap defensive movements, that usually, dont change any coverage but are there to confuse the QB into overthinking before the snap (think Baltimore and Pittsburgh...tape study is a must and i dont meant hours of looking at the tape but actually learning something from those hours of tape).

[Oldfan]

... JC does not make timley decisions to be used in a shot-gun spread offense...

He has the same decisions in the WCO with less time to make them since the shotgun allows him a tad longer.

The disadvantage of the shotgun is more about the lack of balance with the running game. The pluses and minuses have to be weighed.

[Warpath11]

He has the same decisions in the WCO with less time to make them since the shotgun allows him a tad longer.

Agreed that is why I dont think he is a WCO QB either...he is built, as Joe Gibbs saw it, for the 7 step vertical offense (Croyell) built on a stong running game and a big armed QB. However we all know the talent needed to run the Croyell offense is hard to find let alone keep together in the modern era (post free agency).