Redskinsfan4evr Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 What kind of system is Zorn trying to run? I have heard JC and CP talk of how complicated it is. Is this why our offense seems to be struggling more now that in the early parts of the season. Is it too complicated for JC or will it just take more time and I should be patient? I don't know but it sure is frustrating to watch.:eaglesuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RODAN1054 Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 First of all its not Zorns system, and second, this system has worked well for other teams that have brains enough to get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pocampo Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 What kind of system is Zorn trying to run? I have heard JC and CP talk of how complicated it is. Is this why our offense seems to be struggling more now that in the early parts of the season. Is it too complicated for JC or will it just take more time and I should be patient? I don't know but it sure is frustrating to watch.:eaglesuck It seems to me he needs to change something. First of all. Its hard to watch. Second its a joke!! I can't understand why he won't play the rookies. Just look at Bess for Miami he is lighting it up. or look at Scandrick for the cowboys. Ryan Flacco are doing good to. Whats is Zorn thinking!!! He makes it so hard on us fans. And he is suppose to be a good QB coach LMAO. Everybody knows he was a Ok QB in is time but thats it. So yes he needs to change his plan. .And get ride of the slip and slide and beach balls ITS GAY. Use the shotgun and help JC already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eljeasel Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 One of the things thats helped Favre throughout his career is simplification. Every week the coaches would ask him what he liked and didnt. If Favre wasnt cool with a certain package, it was not used that week. This way, in games Brett could rely on his instincts and think less/react more. Its clear that everyone in this offense is thinking way too much. Even Zorn talks about how the comfort level isnt there and people are thinking too much to play fast. If Z was to cut out some of the packages that dont seem to work or arent run fast enough, you could see the Redskins start to get back into that groove we lack so much right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pocampo Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 First of all its not Zorns system, and second, this system has worked well for other teams that have brains enough to get it. Wrong it is the system. This is not the WCO its JZ version of it and its not working!!!! The Question should be who out there thinks this JZ version of the WCO will work? I'm not buying into it and I think the players are not sold on it either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 This offense is working great, it's the defense who needs to stop allowing more that a TD a game. :facepalm: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMike619 Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 it seems like we are hearing that more and more from this team. saunders was too complicated and now so is zorn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 This should be setting off everyone's warning bells. For the second time in two years JC has not been able to grasp the style of offense that we want to run. Terrible sign Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RODAN1054 Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 What I am saying is that everytime the Skins apply a new system, the players don't get it. Now is thst the system or the players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RocketCitySkins Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 This should be setting off everyone's warning bells. For the second time in two years JC has not been able to grasp the style of offense that we want to run. Terrible sign Hasselbeck and Young have both said it takes 3 years to learn and be comfortable with the WCO. Todd Collins said it takes a year to learn Saunders system and 3 years to fully implicate it. Yet, JC gets bashed because he wasn't an expert in a year. :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice_of_Reason Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 I've said this before, and I'll say it again. If the system is too complicated, get smarter players. Because damn it, that's ALL THEY DO. They get paid MILLIONS to learn the freakin' system. Now, in defense, every former QB of a WCO, including Steve Young, have said that because of all of the different things a QB has to do, it takes longer to master than some other offenses. But once you get it, it can be unbelievably productive. Here are the WCO offenses that have played in or won SBs since it was invented: 2005 - Seahawks (loss) 2004 - Eagles (loss) 2002 - Bucs (Win) 1999 - Broncos (Win) 1998 - Broncos (Win), Green Bay (Loss) 1997 - Green Bay (Win) 1994, 1990,1989, 1984, 1981 (Win) San Fran. Who knows if Zorn's version is going to be as productive as some of the others. Who knows if JC can be a true WCO QB? Nobody. But here's something interesting: The teams that have been succesful with the WCO tend to stick with the WCO for DECADES at a time. And when they lose an O-Coordinator, they bring in another WCO O-Coordinator to keep continuity. So the QBs, WRs, everybody knows, lives, and understands the system in their sleep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
33 Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 I don't understand why we keep hiring ideologue's as offensive coordinators. The systems work when they are tailored to the players on the team. When you need to get the proper players in order to execute a system you've already lost half the battle. I'm not saying it can't be done because it has, but it sure doesn't make sense to me to not try and design a system to your players strengths. Is it any wonder that the Pats went 16-0 last year? Great comment by eljeasel about involving your QB in gameplanning. You would think that wasn't such a novel idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice_of_Reason Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 Hasselbeck and Young have both said it takes 3 years to learn and be comfortable with the WCO.Todd Collins said it takes a year to learn Saunders system and 3 years to fully implicate it. Yet, JC gets bashed because he wasn't an expert in a year. :doh: It's because the QB is the easiest person to blame. They get too much blame and too much credit. Everybody says it. But unless you actually "study" the game, and look at each play critically, all you see is, "INCOMPLETE!" or "INT!" or "WHAT? 5 YARD PASS ON 3RD AND 8?" And then you blame the QB, because it's impossible that the other 10 guys might have a factor in the play. Not Saying JC specifically couldn't be doing things better. But the QB is always the easiest target. And will be. Because he has the ball in his hands on every offensive play. (Unless you are running the wildcat, I guess.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice_of_Reason Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 I don't understand why we keep hiring ideologue's as offensive coordinators. The systems work when they are tailored to the players on the team. When you need to get the proper players in order to execute a system you've already lost half the battle. I'm not saying it can't be done because it has, but it sure doesn't make sense to me to not try and design a system to your players strengths. Is it any wonder that the Pats went 16-0 last year? Great comment by eljeasel about involving your QB in gameplanning. You would think that wasn't such a novel idea. See, and the problem I have with this is that every system has fundamentals, but every system has flexibility. The fundamentals of the WCO, as I understand them, tie the read progression to the footwork of the QB, the route trees to the defenses, and is built on both running the ball and spreading the field and using the short passing game to augment the running game, while still incorporating the deep passing game. It features Yards-After-Catch, precise route-running, and timing. There is no reason why you can't game plan for any defense, and play to your players strengths in any offense. Zorn ran the ball a ton early in the season, which is not a hallmark of a typical WCO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooley4President Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 I don't understand why we keep hiring ideologue's as offensive coordinators. The systems work when they are tailored to the players on the team. When you need to get the proper players in order to execute a system you've already lost half the battle. I'm not saying it can't be done because it has, but it sure doesn't make sense to me to not try and design a system to your players strengths. Is it any wonder that the Pats went 16-0 last year? Great comment by eljeasel about involving your QB in gameplanning. You would think that wasn't such a novel idea. We need to not only be patient with the players learning, but also Zorn and *gulp* Vinny building the personnel around towards the system. Anytime you change offensive philosophies you need time to restock your roster with the right guys, it's never instantaneous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbowman Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 Wrong it is the system. This is not the WCO its JZ version of it and its not working!!!! The Question should be who out there thinks this JZ version of the WCO will work? I'm not buying into it and I think the players are not sold on it either. It's JZ's version of the WCO with a team that was built for Gibbs running game first system. Those other teams who run the WCO also had the time to adjust and learn, they didn't just switch and win the superbowl the same year. New systems take time to learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottishskinsfan Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 It seems to me he needs to change something. First of all. Its hard to watch. Second its a joke!! I can't understand why he won't play the rookies. Just look at Bess for Miami he is lighting it up. or look at Scandrick for the cowboys. Ryan Flacco are doing good to. Whats is Zorn thinking!!! He makes it so hard on us fans. And he is suppose to be a good QB coach LMAO. Everybody knows he was a Ok QB in is time but thats it. So yes he needs to change his plan. .And get ride of the slip and slide and beach balls ITS GAY. Use the shotgun and help JC already. So you'd have rookies running around like headless chickens because they have no comprehension of the playbook. That makes sense. :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pocampo Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 See, and the problem I have with this is that every system has fundamentals, but every system has flexibility. The fundamentals of the WCO, as I understand them, tie the read progression to the footwork of the QB, the route trees to the defenses, and is built on both running the ball and spreading the field and using the short passing game to augment the running game, while still incorporating the deep passing game. It features Yards-After-Catch, precise route-running, and timing. There is no reason why you can't game plan for any defense, and play to your players strengths in any offense. Zorn ran the ball a ton early in the season, which is not a hallmark of a typical WCO. So Voice are you sold on this version of the WCO ?? I get the feeling the players have there reservations about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
33 Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 We need to not only be patient with the players learning, but also Zorn and *gulp* Vinny building the personnel around towards the system. Anytime you change offensive philosophies you need time to restock your roster with the right guys, it's never instantaneous. What you're saying may be correct, but it's certainly not the way the front office felt when they hired Zorn. It just never made sense to go to an ideological coach with such a veteran team returning all its starters. The owner said he expected to go deep into the playoffs. So obviously Vinny wasn't thinking this would take time. He traded for Jason Taylor obviously thinking we would compete this season. None of this is really Zorn's fault of course, but somebody wasn't being honest with the others when he was hired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maskedsuperstar Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 First of all its not Zorns system, and second, this system has worked well for other teams that have brains enough to get it. Well, if its not, whose system is it? Takes more than a year to learn the offense. Plus, things were going well, when the OL was healthy. Wake up, dude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pocampo Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 So you'd have rookies running around like headless chickens because they have no comprehension of the playbook. That makes sense. :doh: Why can Bess Flacco scandrick play and your telling me Fred davis can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
33 Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 See, and the problem I have with this is that every system has fundamentals, but every system has flexibility. The fundamentals of the WCO, as I understand them, tie the read progression to the footwork of the QB, the route trees to the defenses, and is built on both running the ball and spreading the field and using the short passing game to augment the running game, while still incorporating the deep passing game. It features Yards-After-Catch, precise route-running, and timing. There is no reason why you can't game plan for any defense, and play to your players strengths in any offense. Zorn ran the ball a ton early in the season, which is not a hallmark of a typical WCO. I'm not dissing the WCO. My wife is a Packers fan, so I've seen the WCO work at top notch form first hand. And yes, some WCO coordinators are very flexible in their scheming. Holmgren being possibly the least flexible. He's on record as being a purist. This isn't the WCO. I have to give Zorn some credit for adapting to his players to a certain degree but he seemed to have stopped doing that around the Rams game and started forcing scheme over playing to our strengths. At least from the outside looking in that's the way it certainly seems to many Skins fans. Anyways, my main complaint was in hiring ideologues that espouse system over players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maskedsuperstar Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 What you're saying may be correct, but it's certainly not the way the front office felt when they hired Zorn.It just never made sense to go to an ideological coach with such a veteran team returning all its starters. The owner said he expected to go deep into the playoffs. So obviously Vinny wasn't thinking this would take time. He traded for Jason Taylor obviously thinking we would compete this season. None of this is really Zorn's fault of course, but somebody wasn't being honest with the others when he was hired. Deep into the playoffs, first year coach? Synder didn't say that. Vinny traded for Taylor for what reason? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottishskinsfan Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 Why can Bess Flacco scandrick play and your telling me Fred davis can't. We are being told they don't have a good understanding of the playbook yet. Rookies, and for that matter anyone, can't be thrown in if they don't know the routes their running etc. It's not good for the team and it's certainly not good for the player. Give the guys time and I'm sure they'll get there but right now they are pretty much unplayable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maskedsuperstar Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 Why can Bess Flacco scandrick play and your telling me Fred davis can't. He probably could play. If you don't know the system, how much can Zorn count on Davis to be in the right spot. Cooley said the Davis lacks confidence. Not sure where he needs to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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