Koolblue13 Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 As thiebear pointed out physical requirements are not the same, and this is unfair, if fewer females can meet the physical demands then fewer ought to serve, but this is not the discussion we are having right now. That is the discussion we are having right now. They allowed women into the military and eased up the requirements, because they are too hard for the average woman. It's not as simple as everybody is equal, we aren't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 That is the discussion we are having right now. They allowed women into the military and eased up the requirements, because they are too hard for the average woman. It's not as simple as everybody is equal, we aren't. we are talking about civil rights of women in the military now physical tests have nothing to do with sexual harassment and assault Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 we are talking about civil rights of women in the military nowphysical tests have nothing to do with sexual harassment and assault Typical, just paint it a black and white issue, despite not understanding the nature of the beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Typical, just paint it a black and white issue, despite not understanding the nature of the beast. I am trying to understand your point, really I am. furthermore I think it is you who thinks the issue is black and white, you are the one saying that segregation is the answer, I think the problem is more complex, and so is the answer. start from the top and make your case. here is mine: 1. Sexual misconduct (Segregation as well) is bad it instills bad values 2. Soldiers will have these bad values instilled in them, and while they may not be harmful in the military, they are harmful in society 3. soldier will reintegrate into society and further legitimize bad values The high % of sexual abuse ought not be solved by another wrong (segregation) solution: 1. Always punish misconduct 2. Do not have segregation 3. Make requirements universal and not gender based Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinInsite Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 We need segregation everywhere to protect the women folk!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbear Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 SkinInsite, I think the Shakers did that. You might want to check on how that turned out for them. I respect the Shakers more than most organized religions I have studied, the complete segregation by gender to make sure everything was equal didn't turn out so well for them. I happen to think they did a more equal segregation than any other culture I've studied...and they died off. The parts in this thread that make me sick are those who seem to be impling "Of course they wee sexually assaulted. They were weaker." Seriously, that's as messed up arguement as I've heard by way of explanation. These are the people we have representing us? My god, I never want somebody living next to me who lives with that kind of logic...of course suddenly their rational for wanting shotguns in the house makes a little more sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popeman38 Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Civil Rights in the military? Are you kidding me? You have ZERO rights in the military. You have the right to live. You don't get liberty or the pursuit of happiness until you ETS. No freedom of speech. No freedom of expression. No right to assemble. You have one right: to do what the **** you are told to do. SERIOUSLY. The words "good order and discipline" not only apply, but are a way of life. Special treatment: Allowed to return from the field once a week to shower Lowered PT scores Privacy My wife was in the Army at the same time I was. There are stresses that occur when deployed above and beyond what a civilian ever experiences. Don't talk about civilian life. This article does not state that 15% of servicewomen report sexual trauma when stationed in the US. It states that 15% of veterans of OEF/OIF report sexual trauma. Let's examine what that entails. You must deploy for 12 - 18 months to a hostile environment. You are exposed to violence and carnage such that you have never experienced before and never will again (outside a second rotation). You are isolated (for the most part) into fire teams consisting of American men and a terp. You have adrenaline and testosterone coursing through your body anytime you leave the wire. And you are separated form your woman the whole time. Now, Uncle Sam is nice enough to station women with you at night. Is any of this an excuse for what happened? NO. Am I blaming the victims for any nefarious activity? NO. Did you hear of these rapes in Vietnam or WWII? NO. Why? There were no women in a combat zone! If there had been, 15% of them would have the same complaints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinInsite Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 If military have such good discipline couldn't the commanding officer just say, no touching the woman soldier next you buddy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popeman38 Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 I am trying to understand your point, really I am. furthermore I think it is you who thinks the issue is black and white, you are the one saying that segregation is the answer, I think the problem is more complex, and so is the answer.start from the top and make your case. here is mine: 1. Sexual misconduct (Segregation as well) is bad it instills bad values 2. Soldiers will have these bad values instilled in them, and while they may not be harmful in the military, they are harmful in society 3. soldier will reintegrate into society and further legitimize bad values The high % of sexual abuse ought not be solved by another wrong (segregation) solution: 1. Always punish misconduct 2. Do not have segregation 3. Make requirements universal and not gender based IT IS ONLY THE SOLDIERS THAT DEPLOYED TO OIF/OEF, NOT SOLDIERS IN TOTAL! They will not "reintegrate" into society and bring sexual misconduct with them. You are the first person I have ever heard say that military service legitimizes bad values. 180 dregrees from what truth is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 They have the right not be sexually assaulted either way it is against military rules so why aren't they getting in line then? IT IS ONLY THE SOLDIERS THAT DEPLOYED TO OIF/OEF, NOT SOLDIERS IN TOTAL! They will not "reintegrate" into society and bring sexual misconduct with them. You are the first person I have ever heard say that military service legitimizes bad values. 180 dregrees from what truth is. why is sexual misconduct more liable to happen there as opposed to various other institutions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popeman38 Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 If military have such good discipline couldn't the commanding officer just say, no touching the woman soldier next you buddy.In normal everyday life (in garrison), you don't have to. Us soldiers (or neanderthals, based on some posts) adhere to your civilian laws, and the military laws that go above and beyond civilian law. Add in the stresses and carnage OF A WAR, and soldiers tend to lose the moral gravity that controls most of society. Something about kill or be killed. Nobody is saying women shouldn't be in the military. just that women shouldn't be in the same unit in a combat zone... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popeman38 Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 They have the right not be sexually assaultedeither way it is against military rules so why aren't they getting in line then? why is sexual misconduct more liable to happen there as opposed to various other institutions? Like where? Prison? It isn't a problem in garrison units. Only in the units that are DEPLOYED TO A WAR ZONE. Think about that. What is different in war than anywhere else in the world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 In normal everyday life (in garrison), you don't have to. Us soldiers (or neanderthals, based on some posts) adhere to your civilian laws, and the military laws that go above and beyond civilian law. Add in the stresses and carnage OF A WAR, and soldiers tend to lose the moral gravity that controls most of society. Something about kill or be killed. Nobody is saying women shouldn't be in the military. just that women shouldn't be in the same unit in a combat zone... Guy, don't twist my words, I said what I mean and I mean what I said snarky indirect attacks don't help anyone' you argument is that soldiers in a combat zone are more likely to sexually abuse female soldiers. Why do you think that is? EDIT: not saying there aren't plausible reasons though I would be interested in backing up your assertion. What makes combat deployment different than garrison deployment? Is there a difference in sexual assault rates? Is there a difference in living style? If so, what are they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Like where? Prison? How dare you compare our fine soldiers to prisoners Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popeman38 Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 How dare you compare our fine soldiers to prisonersUmmm, I was a soldier for 8 years. Where else would you compare it to? Summer camp? There is no other social subset for comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Ummm, I was a soldier for 8 years. Where else would you compare it to? Summer camp? There is no other social subset for comparison. would you say the military life is somewhere in between prison and summer camp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popeman38 Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 you argument is that soldiers in a combat zone are more likely to sexually abuse female soldiers. Why do you think that is?EDIT: not saying there aren't plausible reasons though I would be interested in backing up your assertion. What makes combat deployment different than garrison deployment? Is there a difference in sexual assault rates? Is there a difference in living style? If so, what are they? Deployed:IED AK-47 Working 12 hour days, 7 days a week, for 12 - 18 months straight with 2 weeks off in the middle mortar attacks Garrison: PT at 7 Work call at 9 End of day formation at 1630 On the first tee by 1700 Weekends off Life in the military in garrison is much like a civilian life. You have certain things that have to get done. At Ft Drum, Monday was motor pool day - you maintained all the units vehicles by performing PMCS' to each. Take oil samples, grease the axles and treat the seals. Make sure the vehicle is in good working order. That was how you spend Monday, all day. Tuesday through Friday were normal workdays. You had an office where you went over tactics, prepped footlockers for the field, prepared maps and overlays, prepped field chests, inspected gear. Studied your field manuals, trying to get promoted. Normal stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 I am trying to understand your point, really I am. furthermore I think it is you who thinks the issue is black and white, you are the one saying that segregation is the answer, I think the problem is more complex, and so is the answer.start from the top and make your case. here is mine: 1. Sexual misconduct (Segregation as well) is bad it instills bad values 2. Soldiers will have these bad values instilled in them, and while they may not be harmful in the military, they are harmful in society 3. soldier will reintegrate into society and further legitimize bad values The high % of sexual abuse ought not be solved by another wrong (segregation) solution: 1. Always punish misconduct 2. Do not have segregation 3. Make requirements universal and not gender based I'm talking about in the military, not when you get out. Let's get that righted and then move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinInsite Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Combat stress turn some soldiers in to sex craze rapists, gotcha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Combat stress turn some soldiers in to sex craze rapists, gotcha. Your comments are just a joke and add little to the conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popeman38 Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 would you say the military life is somewhere in between prison and summer camp?No. Prison is the closest social subset that there is to compare it to. You have no "freedom". They inspect your room. They have "health and welfare" inspections for contraband that are like shakedowns in prison. You have a serious routine. Mondays are always the same. Tuesdays are always the same. Wed, Thurs, Fri. Much like a civilian job, but for the most part the stakes are way higher with what we train to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popeman38 Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Combat stress turn some soldiers in to sex craze rapists, gotcha.No, but it leads to inappropriate comments, advances, and sometimes attacks.Did you even read the article posted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinInsite Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 No, but it leads to inappropriate comments, advances, and sometimes attacks.Did you even read the article posted? Kimerling said in a telephone interview the term "military sexual trauma" covers a range of events from coerced sex to outright rape or threatening and unwelcome sexual advances. So I assume there are rapes occurring, and wouldn't the person/s committing the rape be called rapists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popeman38 Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 So I assume there are rapes occurring, and wouldn't the person/s committing the rape be called rapists.Do I really need to link you back to your previous post to show you the difference b/w this and the sarcastic post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinInsite Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 You are right, I should sugar coat it so it sounds better. Combat stress causes some soldiers(male) to make inappropriate comments and/or advances towards their fellow soldier(female), which can lead to coerced sex and/or rape. Thus those soldiers that committed rape could be called rapists. But I'm sure they are fine human beings without being exposed to the stress of a combat zone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.