Reuters: Iran says Israel not capable of threatening it...

[TradeTheBeal!]

People still think they're developing nuclear technology for 'peaceful purposes'.

Although there are fewer of them then there used to be.

~Bang

The truth is that they are developing them to keep up with Israel thus changing/equalizing the balance of power in the region, not to mention elevating Iran's status which I'm sure is important to them given the recent unlawful invasions of their neighbors by righteous Judeo-Christian crusaders.

Pure Chaos Theory, my man, as is Israel's response. Top-dog's generally prefer to remain as such.

[Bang]

The truth is that they are developing them to keep up with Israel thus changing/equalizing the balance of power in the region, not to mention elevating Iran's status which I'm sure is important to them given the recent unlawful invasions of their neighbors by righteous Judeo-Christian crusaders.

Pure Chaos Theory, my man, as is Israel's response. Top-dog's generally prefer to remain as such.

I see, and this truth comes to you by way of...?

You somehow have a conduit to their thinking that the entire rest of the world is missing?

~Bang

[The Sisko]

I see, and this truth comes to you by way of...?

You somehow have a conduit to their thinking that the entire rest of the world is missing?

~Bang

I agree with Mboyd. They have to know that any unconventional first strike against Israel (whether via a missile or terrorist attack) would result in massive, crushing and devastating retaliation. Therefore, I just can't see them wanting the nukes for any other reason than to balance the equation with Israel and for the prestige that joining the nuke club would bring. And, even if they fall short, they can still get the same type of deal the N. Koreans got. In my mind, this is the real purpose of the high stakes game of chicken they're playing.

OTOH, this calculation assumes rationality on the part of Ahmedinijad and the mullahs which is by no means guaranteed. Even so, I'd bank on the time tested theory of M.A.D.-even with a nutjob like Ahmedini...whatever. After all, Islamic fundamentalist or not, would he really want to go down in history as the person responsible for bringing to an end thousands of years of Persian history? After all, they take that Persian pride thing pretty seriously.

[The Sisko]

Iran hasn't had their military infrastructure decimated 10 years prior.

Iran with Syria/Jordan/Palestine would over-run Israel.

We would have no choice, and it would be a bad day in Earthdom.

I'd be more than shocked if Israel got over-run. Just not gonna happen. They've got the best and most disciplined/professional military in the region. They may be small but they've proven themselves to be more than equal to the task many times over. The Jordanians are practically a Western ally and the Syrians can be counted on to sit it out. They're closer than they've ever been to regaining the Golan and I don't see them jeopardizing that for nothing more in exchange than another humiliating defeat at the hands of a much smaller foe. Hezbollah would certainly cause as much trouble as they could, but they're not much of a threat either as they were specifically built to face Israel in defensive/guerilla combat in Lebanon. They're just not much of an offensive threat. I'm sure if Hezbollah wants to come out of their bunkers/cities and fight an offensive war, the IDF would welcome that....even fighting Iran at the same time.

Due to U.S. military hardware, intel, and $$$ Israel is the 800 lb gorilla of the region and there's just no getting around that. The Iranians are just whistling past the graveyard. Good thing though, as I hear Baghdad Bob is out of work these days.

[TradeTheBeal!]

I see, and this truth comes to you by way of...?

You somehow have a conduit to their thinking that the entire rest of the world is missing?

~Bang

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/BUSINESS/02/19/russia.iran.oil.ap/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A55414-2004Nov16.html

"entire rest of the world", huh? Not really, sir.

[Bang]

I agree with Mboyd. They have to know that any unconventional first strike against Israel (whether via a missile or terrorist attack) would result in massive, crushing and devastating retaliation.

So, why would they be striking first?

Isn't this why Israel feels threatened in the first place? As far as I know, Israel has never taken any military action against Iran, they carry no common border with Iran, in fact I think they're about a thousand miles apart.

Iran has been funding their enemies for years. And only until they began this highly suspicious nuclear program did Israel make any military move toward them at all.

This logic doesn't make sense that says Iran is only building a nuke to answer Israeli aggression towards Iran's threat of a first strike.

It seems rather simple to me. If they don't want a security problem with Israel, stop threatening to kill them. I bet they calm right on down.

~Bang

[FanboyOf91]

I'd be more than shocked if Israel got over-run. Just not gonna happen. They've got the best and most disciplined/professional military in the region. They may be small but they've proven themselves to be more than equal to the task many times over. The Jordanians are practically a Western ally and the Syrians can be counted on to sit it out. They're closer than they've ever been to regaining the Golan and I don't see them jeopardizing that for nothing more in exchange than another humiliating defeat at the hands of a much smaller foe. Hezbollah would certainly cause as much trouble as they could, but they're not much of a threat either as they were specifically built to face Israel in defensive/guerilla combat in Lebanon. They're just not much of an offensive threat. I'm sure if Hezbollah wants to come out of their bunkers/cities and fight an offensive war, the IDF would welcome that....even fighting Iran at the same time.

Due to U.S. military hardware, intel, and $$$ Israel is the 800 lb gorilla of the region and there's just no getting around that. The Iranians are just whistling past the graveyard. Good thing though, as I hear Baghdad Bob is out of work these days.

Don't forget the fact that every man and woman in Israel has to join the military when they turn 18 and that after active service, they are a part of the Reserves. The Israelis don't **** around when it comes to national defense.

[TradeTheBeal!]

This logic doesn't make sense that says Iran is only building a nuke to answer Israeli aggression towards Iran's threat of a first strike.

~Bang

Straw man alert. Neither Yusuf nor I asserted that logic. Also, find me an Iranian promise of a "first strike".

[Bang]

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/BUSINESS/02/19/russia.iran.oil.ap/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A55414-2004Nov16.html

"entire rest of the world", huh? Not really, sir.

So Russia and China makes a deal to drill oil. Does it say how they feel about the Iranian nuclear program?

Here let me help you stay relevant to the issue.

This one talks about China's response to Iran's nuclear program

Here. they even say "Beijing needs Iranian oil and gas for its booming economy, and China supports Iran's right to a nuclear programme.

But as a permanent member of the UN Security Council, it backed last month's resolution imposing sanctions on Iran. "

Here is another one in a Russian paper from ten days ago talking about the "Iran Six". China, Russia, US, Britain, France, Germany, and Britain, and how they are weighing how to get Iran to stop their enrichment program without disrupting oil production. It goes on to discuss Russia's support of a peaceful Iranian nuclear program, and and their offer of non-weapons grade plutonium for just such a purpose, that Tehran rejected.

So while you're right in your assertion that China and Russia have secured contracts to drill and refine oil in Iran, you need to read up on how they feel about Iran having a nuclear weapon. One has nothing to do with the other except to have put China at odds with their position on the UN Security Council, which they settled by backing the UN resolutions, and to have caused Russia to offer them something they could NOT build a weapon from, but were turned down by a regime that pretty much everyone knows (including Russia and China) is trying to build a weapon.

~Bang

[Bang]

Straw man alert. Neither Yusuf nor I asserted that logic. Also, find me an Iranian promise of a "first strike".

Read the first two lines of Yusuf's post please. I was talking about his agreement with your post when he said exactly that.

Here it is again

"They have to know that any unconventional first strike against Israel (whether via a missile or terrorist attack) would result in massive, crushing and devastating retaliation."

To explain it, Yusuf is agreeing with you saying their building a NUKE because they know a CONVENTIONAL first strike by them on Israel would lead to a nuke coming from Israel and ****ing up their day.

Now go re-read what I wrote.

Follow along, this gets annoying.

~Bang

[Bang]

The Iranians are just whistling past the graveyard. Good thing though, as I hear Baghdad Bob is out of work these days.

:laugh:

That's about as concise as it can be said.

~Bang

[TradeTheBeal!]

^^ Money talks, UN bull**** walks.

Don't kid yourself, Bang. Russia (especially) and China are all about a strong alliance with a stable, viable Iran - think Iron curtain Europe with oil. They're not gonna come out and fight it out on the Security Council but they will supply some bite for Iran's bark - much as the US does for Israel. It's a pretty natural reaction to the rampant western imperialis...er, "democracy-building" that's been happening recently.

[TradeTheBeal!]

Read the first two lines of Yusuf's post please. I was talking about his agreement with your post when he said exactly that.

Here it is again

"They have to know that any unconventional first strike against Israel (whether via a missile or terrorist attack) would result in massive, crushing and devastating retaliation."

To explain it, Yusuf is agreeing with you saying their building a NUKE because they know a CONVENTIONAL first strike by them on Israel would lead to a nuke coming from Israel and ****ing up their day.

Now go re-read what I wrote.

Follow along, this gets annoying.

~Bang

Semantics are fun. Spirited political debate iz funner.

[twa]

The truth is that they are developing them to keep up with Israel thus changing/equalizing the balance of power in the region, not to mention elevating Iran's status which I'm sure is important to them given the recent unlawful invasions of their neighbors by righteous Judeo-Christian crusaders.

Pure Chaos Theory, my man, as is Israel's response. Top-dog's generally prefer to remain as such.

Oh they wish to change the balance of power all right,by wielding a big stick that they hope will intimidate the others in the region.

Problem is almost all the world opposes them doing so,not to mention they agreed not to...a minor matter,I'm sure.

They also refuse better relations and financial rewards from the international community for not enriching uranium...seem strange to you?

The only strawman I see is you asserting them balancing Israel's power in the region :laugh:

BTW..What unlawful invasions are you referring to?...the one done under the UN authority?

The ONE that removed Iran's only REAL threat in the region?

The ONE that freed tens of millions of Iraqi's,while removing the ruler that waged war on them?

The ONE that freed Shia to be majority rulers?

The ONE that opened up the holiest of Shia mosques to pilgrimages?

Iran doesn't seem too grateful nor peaceful in intentions in return.

[Bang]

^^ Money talks, UN bull**** walks.

Don't kid yourself, Bang. Russia (especially) and China are all about a strong alliance with a stable, viable Iran - think Iron curtain Europe with oil. They're not gonna come out and fight it out on the Security Council but they will supply some bite for Iran's bark - much as the US does for Israel. It's a pretty natural reaction to the rampant western imperialis...er, "democracy-building" that's been happening recently.

Again, you come by this where?

I don't think you read the articles I posted.

Here's some more nice reading to deny.

From Der Spiegel: Ahmadinijad Threatens Israel With Destruction "If they intervene is Palestine again".. in other words,, they will destroy Israel if they don't directly attack Iran.

Here's a whole MESS of threats Ahmadinijad made during his Anti Holocaust conference. To summarize so you won't have to read the article, he threatens to destroy the 'cause of unrest in the middle east" if the Holocaust truth is not discovered.

So, to paraphrase, unless people accept the Holocaust was false, he will wipe out Israel.

Here's more when he threatens to annihilate Israel for no particulazr reason, except to say again that the Middle East will be rid of them and the Palestinian problem will be done soon.

"Like it or not, the Zionist regime is heading toward annihilation," Ahmadinejad said at the opening of a three-day conference in support of the Palestinians. "The Zionist regime is a rotten, dried tree that will be eliminated by one storm."

And yet more stuff about how they will destroy Israel

"The existence of the Zionist regime is tantamount to an imposition of an unending and unrestrained threat so that none of the nations and Islamic countries of the region and beyond can feel secure from its threat,"

So to sum up that one for you, he's threatening to destroy Israel because their very presence threatens the region (of which Iran is a thousand miles away).

Here's something from Kofi Annan decrying Ahmadiddlepoo's calls to follow the ayatollah Khomeini's teachings and "wipe Israel off the map."

I could go on forever. These all come from the first page of a simple Google search, and all of them deal with specific threats made by Ahmadinijad towards Israel and say absolutely NOTHING about Iran being directly threatened until

This little gem when he does respond to Israel finally demanding he stop enrichment or face consequences by threatening any country (specifically the EU) who would side with them.

~Bang

[Bang]

Semantics are fun. Spirited political debate iz funner.

This kind of bull**** is what you think constitutes "spirited political debate" ?

~Bang

[The Sisko]

Read the first two lines of Yusuf's post please. I was talking about his agreement with your post when he said exactly that.

Here it is again

"They have to know that any unconventional first strike against Israel (whether via a missile or terrorist attack) would result in massive, crushing and devastating retaliation."

To explain it, Yusuf is agreeing with you saying their building a NUKE because they know a CONVENTIONAL first strike by them on Israel would lead to a nuke coming from Israel and ****ing up their day.

Now go re-read what I wrote.

Follow along, this gets annoying.

~Bang

Uhhh, :no: This is a no-win game for Iran and Israel doesn't need a nuke strike for it to play out that way. That is, I doubt Israel would respond with nukes if Iran decided to attack them with conventional weapons. They'd simply use such an opportunity, were duthe Iranians dumb enough to hand ti to them, to dismantle Iran as a threat, nuclear or otherwise. As for Iran having nukes, I think the Israelis give Ahmedinijad the credit he's due....i.e. none. His rhetoric is just for bragging rights in the region. There's really nothing backing it up and everyone, including the Israelis know it.

The real danger in Iran having a nuke option is in the passing along of nuclear technology to terrorist groups who unlike Ahmedinijad, have no country or other worldly considerations to take into consideration. Quite frankly, I think the Israelis have a better understanding of the lack of control Iran would have in such a scenario than Tehran does.

[TradeTheBeal!]

You say crazed psychopath. I say shrewd politician. Either way, he is not the commander-in-chief of Iran's military just the elected leader - a politician with a big mouth and a target on his back. Cry Wolf, as was done with Saddam, if you like but you have to know that armed conflict with Iran would be devastating to the American economy and it's people, Israel's as well. Diplomacy is required at this point.

Thanks for the links.

[twa]

Diplomacy is required at this point.

I thought that was what the world (thru the UN)has been doing?

Not very effective so far for some reason though.

Does Iran not want better relations with others?

[Bang]

Uhhh, :no: This is a no-win game for Iran and Israel doesn't need a nuke strike for it to play out that way. That is, I doubt Israel would respond with nukes if Iran decided to attack them with conventional weapons. They'd simply use such an opportunity, were duthe Iranians dumb enough to hand ti to them, to dismantle Iran as a threat, nuclear or otherwise. As for Iran having nukes, I think the Israelis give Ahmedinijad the credit he's due....i.e. none. His rhetoric is just for bragging rights in the region. There's really nothing backing it up and everyone, including the Israelis know it.

The real danger in Iran having a nuke option is in the passing along of nuclear technology to terrorist groups who unlike Ahmedinijad, have no country or other worldly considerations to take into consideration. Quite frankly, I think the Israelis have a better understanding of the lack of control Iran would have in such a scenario than Tehran does.

Absolutely, this stuff is not in Iran's best interest at all. And I totally agree, I've made mention of this n many other threads,, i think the first thing they'd do with a bomb is pass it to an organization that would use it and Iran can try to play the usual "we had nothing to do with it" game. I don't doubt thyat is what is on a lot of minds in some high places around the world, too.

I'm not so sure Israel thinks it's all just talk, either. And in listening to that guy for the last few years, they've got a good reason to be a little nervous.

It's doubly bad because we know the people of Iran don't want to go to war, they are helplessly swept along by the rhetoric from the top.

~Bang

[Bang]

You say crazed psychopath. I say shrewd politician. Either way, he is not the commander-in-chief of Iran's military just the elected leader - a politician with a big mouth and a target on his back. Cry Wolf, as was done with Saddam, if you like but you have to know that armed conflict with Iran would be devastating to the American economy and it's people, Israel's as well. Diplomacy is required at this point.

Thanks for the links.

I do agree that Israel could not have picked a worse time for this. I do know that Ahmadinejad's approval ratings are at or below those of Bush.. he used to have quite the favor of his people, but his rhetoric that has led them to the brink of war and the fact that his economy stinks, his government is still full of corruption he promised to get rid of, and they can't pump the oil they have and refine it have led the people of Iran away from him. Their inflation is out of control like ours is, and they have gas lines in a country so rich with oil. So he's not so shrewd, either. He's a radical, one of the hostage takers.

Diplomacy, yes, but the old fashioned way. Speak softly, sure, but carry that big stick. If he IS producing a weapon, which does seem to be the case, you can only negotiate so far. Speak softly to the people. Wave the stick at him. In other words, try to be clear that we do not want to make war on the Iranian people.

I've said numerous times I think Iran can be solved peacefully, but there have been developments that make me wonder if we can ever actually talk to the people rather than the idiot up top. What i mean is, In his 'mid-term' election a few years ago the people heavily voted against his party. So in their last election last year he just outlawed the opposition party.

Very Hitler-esque, that kind of move.

And the fact that they continue to defy the UN and develop a nuke program they insist is for peaceful energy, yet they turn down the harmless materials required to do so when offered by an ally.

He's not leaving people much choice.

~Bang

[JMS]

So, why would they be striking first?

Isn't this why Israel feels threatened in the first place? As far as I know, Israel has never taken any military action against Iran, they carry no common border with Iran, in fact I think they're about a thousand miles apart.

Iran has been funding their enemies for years. And only until they began this highly suspicious nuclear program did Israel make any military move toward them at all.

Israel and Iran actually had very good relations throughout the shah's reign. Israel actually started the six day war in responce to Egypt closed the Tiran Strait to Israeli shipping effectively cutting Israel off to Iranian oil at the time.

This logic doesn't make sense that says Iran is only building a nuke to answer Israeli aggression towards Iran's threat of a first strike.

It seems rather simple to me. If they don't want a security problem with Israel, stop threatening to kill them. I bet they calm right on down.

~Bang

The idea isn't that they are developing nukes to answer Israeli agression to Iran. The idea is that Israel is the first to introduce nukes to the region and they would be just matching Israel's move. Iran has offered to give up their nuclear fuel cycle program in exchange for all the ME signing a pledge not to pocess nukes. A non starter for Israel.

As for Why Iran is tilting and harasssing Israel through Hamas and Hezbollah and why I'mADinnerJacket is pledging to destroy Israel. I think it bolsters Iran in the entire teritory to tilt at the most hated/feared country in the region..

If you ask me it's kind of like flicking a huge bull on the nose.

I also think mboyd784 makes some pretty good points. I have the opprotunity to read Iranian newspapers and they are all a twiter about how CNN interupts an Italian PM's speach to cover I'mADinerJacket's latest diatribe. Apealing to Iranian nationalism by anoying Israel and defying the US and Europe is Iran's Mullah's best strategy to keep the populations mind off of the poor economy and all the Mulah's corruption.

All of that is BS though. If you say you are going to turn Israel into a ball of fire, Israel doesn't really care what your motivations are. They are going to take you at your word and do what they can to see you don't have the opprotunity. Israel has had quite a lot of experience with folks trying to wipe them off the map, and they don't take such statements litely.

[JMS]

I agree with Mboyd. They have to know that any unconventional first strike against Israel (whether via a missile or terrorist attack) would result in massive, crushing and devastating retaliation..

Iran is the primary funder of both Hamas and Hezbollah. And Hamas and Hezbollah have constantly been shooting rockets into Israel proper. Likewise both Hamas and Hezbollah have had terrorist attacks on Israel and Israel hasn't yet attacked Iran..

I don't think what you are saying is true. For Israel to hit Iran they would have to fly over three or more countries who would not open up their airspace to Israel. Israel can and have done that on very rare occassions, they've never done it against Iran.. or against a country as far away as Iran.

( four Israeli fighters bombed Iraq nuclear facility back in 1981 ).

If Israel hits Iran, It will be something big. Maybe Israel will fly out of India across pakistan and afghanistan and hit Iran that way. Israel has fighters on permenent detachment in India if I'm not mistaken.

[michael_33]

Please explain to us what Iran has done to justify being nuked.

If I ever said that I was going to wipe you and your family off the face of the earth,what would your response be?(I'm referring to when Iran,threatened Isreal and said they will wipe them off the map)

And had the necessary means and dillusional reason to do so...Would that be any reason for you to prepare your family for any type of defense?

You're welcome... !

[michael_33]

Oh...and just for what it's worth people...Isreal will NOT be taken out!

They WILL be attacked...but they will not be taken out...I promise!!

Now us....That I don't know...!As long as we continue to support Isreal,we will be better off than if we don't...That I can also promise you!