WP: Calm in Basra May Offer A Guide for Iraqi Security

[SkinsHokieFan]

Cue the "lets pull all our troops out now" crowd

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/20/AR2008062003096.html

Calm in Basra May Offer A Guide for Iraqi Security

Rebuilt Army Controls City Militias Once Held

By Sudarsan Raghavan

Washington Post Foreign Service

Saturday, June 21, 2008; A01

BASRA, Iraq -- The Iraqi army soldiers walked with confidence into this city's notorious Five Miles neighborhood. Shiite militiamen once greeted them with machine guns and rocket-propelled grenades. Now, smiling children waved, and a nearby market pulsed with energy. "Nobody before was able to get in here," said Col. Bilal al-Dayni, surveying the battle-scarred landscape.

For Dayni, a barrel-chested former officer in Saddam Hussein's military, the scene was a vindication. The Americans disbanded Hussein's army after the 2003 invasion. Under British administration, Basra fell into the grip of zealots and gunmen. But nearly three months after the Iraqi government launched an offensive to reinstall authority, about 30,000 Iraqi soldiers control Basra, providing a glimpse of what might happen when the bulk of U.S. troops depart Iraq.

"The Iraqi army is like an antique vase," said Dayni, beaming. "When you remove the dust, you will find a diamond."

As the two countries pursue contentious negotiations over the future role of the U.S. military in Iraq, the evolution of Basra suggests that Iraqi troops, when deployed in large numbers in areas without deep sectarian divisions, can provide security largely on their own.

For Iraqi army commanders in this strategic southern Shiite city, where much of Iraq's oil flows to the rest of the world, the Basra offensive has reinvigorated their sense of pride.

"Iraqis feel sensitive to the presence of foreign troops, so of course people will deal differently with Iraqi forces," said Brig. Gen. Mohan al-Freiji, the former top Iraqi army commander in Basra. "We understand Islamic society, our soldiers know the language, and we connect better with our people.

Dayni stepped out of his Humvee and walked to a corner of a wide, traffic-choked highway that led toward Baghdad. Before the offensive, residents called it the Road of Death. Dayni knew why: In early April, a bomb killed his battalion commander, Brig. Gen. Wisam Salih Mahdi, a few yards from where Dayni stood.

"The militias in Basra are finished," Dayni said. "What remains are the last fugitives, like their last breath."

The Basra offensive, by all descriptions, was a haphazard affair. Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki consulted neither his political allies nor Iraq's parliament. American generals knew of the operation a few days before its launch. In the initial days, hundreds of Iraqi army soldiers fled their posts, forcing Maliki to bring in reinforcements. Clashes erupted across southern Iraq and in Baghdad's Sadr City district, the stronghold of Shiite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr's Mahdi Army.

But outside forces came to Maliki's aid. British and American warplanes bombarded Shiite militia targets, and U.S. military advisers assisted Iraqi commanders. Sadr urged his fighters to stand down and obey a cease-fire he imposed last August. Iran played a major role in brokering a politically expedient deal between Sadr and the government. The deal ended the offensive, allowing Iraqi forces to enter and maintain checkpoints around the city.

Despite Dayni's optimism, it's still unclear whether Maliki's gambit has succeeded. The Mahdi Army has been known to disappear from the streets in other areas of Iraq, only to resurface and resume the fight months later. Because of the deal, Iraqi troops never faced any prolonged fighting. Neither the Americans nor the British have full confidence in Iraq's fledgling army.

Also unclear is whether the lessons of Basra can be applied elsewhere, given the country's complex sectarian and political makeup.

But Basra's sudden transformation, from a city under the control of fundamentalist militias to one in which simple freedoms like playing music can be enjoyed again, has brought praise for the Iraqi army. In interviews across the city, Basrans also expressed anger at the British, who steadily slashed their forces from a high of 43,000 in 2003 to a current level of 4,000. In December, they handed over control of Basra province to Iraq and are now based at the airport miles outside the city center, along with some U.S. military advisers.

Many Basrans believe the British did not take a forceful stand against the militias because they were wary of high casualty counts in a war that is unpopular in Britain.

"The presence of the British forces in Basra was a tragedy," said Ayad al-Kanaan, a tribal leader in the city's Tannouma enclave, once a stronghold of the Mahdi Army. "We believed there was a deal between the British and the militias: 'Don't attack us. And we won't chase you.' "

In al-Andalus Park, Abdul Ridha Ali, 55, was strolling between swings and slides with his daughter, an action he had been too afraid to take under British control. Then, militiamen routinely patrolled the park and attacked anyone they deemed un-Islamic.

"The British didn't understand us," Ali said. "Iraqis know their ground, their neighborhoods, their people. The government is from our people."

British military officials acknowledge they were not successful in ridding Basra of the militias and criminal groups. But they said they played a significant role in training Iraqi troops to take over security responsibilities.

"Ultimately, the problem of the militia groups in Iraq will require a political, not a military, solution," Lt. Col. Nick Turner, a British military spokesman, wrote in an e-mail.

Dayni's convoy of Humvees proceeded to a market in the center of Five Miles. He got out and walked without a bulletproof jacket past stalls, stopping to chat with shopkeepers. He asked about their lives, their businesses. He joked with children. One shopkeeper approached him and told him that several shops down the road had been damaged during the offensive.

"When are we going to be compensated?" the shopkeeper demanded.

Dayni smiled, and cupped his fingers and thumb together in an Iraqi gesture that signifies patience. "I'll do my best for you," Dayni said, avoiding confrontation.

Earlier that morning, Dayni and his soldiers solved a dispute between two groups of young men by using traditional Iraqi tribal negotiation. "If it happened before we were in Basra, there would have been rivers of blood," Dayni said.

His soldiers surrounded him, heavily armed. One carried a rocket-propelled grenade launcher on his shoulder. But for many of the vendors, the show of force bolstered confidence. "Believe me, we are satisfied and comfortable as long as you are here," another shopkeeper told Dayni.

At night, across the city, it has become routine to see pickup trucks filled with Iraqi army soldiers and police patrolling main roads. Soldiers have swiftly detained unruly youths. "A few days ago, we sold religious songs and Iraqi army soldiers came by and argued with us," said Ali Abdullah, a CD vendor on Basra's crowded al-Jazaar Street. "They beat up another vendor for selling the songs. They thought he was a militiaman."

The tough tactics underscored the fragile nature of Basra's security. Sadr's followers have accused the Iraqi army of being proxy fighters for the Shiite rivals seeking to weaken Sadr's movement before provincial elections scheduled for October.

Dayni is cautious when he speaks about the Sadrists. He said the Iraqi army fought only those militiamen who no longer obeyed Sadr. "We respect the Sadrist movement. They have a great history in Iraq," Dayni said. "We are not linked to any political party."

But many Iraqi soldiers are seen as partisan. Two Iraqi soldiers seated in a Humvee, near a billboard where Sadr's face had been ripped apart, said they feared returning to Baghdad. Both lived in Sadr City. They said they haven't told their neighbors that they are soldiers. Whenever they go home they wear civilian clothes.

One soldier they knew was killed by Mahdi Army militiamen in Sadr City last month, they said. Both asked that their names not be used, fearing persecution by militiamen.

"I didn't leave my house. I spent the whole time with my family," said one soldier, who had returned 10 days earlier from a break in Sadr City. "I would be killed if they knew."

Dayni himself is on a Mahdi Army death list in his Baghdad neighborhood of Amin. He said he hadn't seen his family in 77 days.

The convoy entered the neighborhood of Jumeila, where graffiti on the walls praised Sadr and denounced Maliki. "We are concerned, because the militias might reappear again with different names, especially when the Iraqi army leaves," said Osama Jassim, 28, who runs a cafeteria at Basra University.

Dayni ordered the convoy to stop at the Jubaila Center, a glittering department store. Once, it was a prime kidnapping zone. In its women's section, the store had stocked only black Islamic head-to-ankle abayas so as not to offend the Islamists. Now, families freely shop late into the evening. The women's section is filled with colorful attire.

"You can't compare it to the past," said Rawaa Mahdi, 23, the manager, as Dayni smiled.

But an element of the past lingered. One employee said that before the offensive, he couldn't utter a word of English because the militiamen would attack him for being Westernized. When asked for his name, the employee declined.

"They can still target me," he said.

[Teller]

Cue the "lets pull all our troops out now" crowd

Nah, Ish.

It's like any other time you post good news. It'll get about 11 posts.

This is great news. I read the story a few weeks ago about the Iraqi army first going into Basra, and how the Sunni soldiers were presented with copies of the Quran by Shiite residents. I'm sure I don't understand the full ramifications of such a gesture, but I would imagine there couldn't be a much more significant sign of progress.

[SkinsHokieFan]

Nah, Ish.

It's like any other time you post good news. It'll get about 11 posts.

This is great news. I read the story a few weeks ago about the Iraqi army first going into Basra, and how the Sunni soldiers were presented with copies of the Quran by Shiite residents. I'm sure I don't understand the full ramifications of such a gesture, but I would imagine there couldn't be a much more significant sign of progress.

11 posts? :laugh: Will 8 of them be my posts and a combination of yours and TWA?

As for the Quran thing, I am not sure of the ramifications either, but I can say its not a negative thing. Hopefully they can avoid the religious debate and just let people be people, and have this "calm" continue to spread

As for Iraq- The Kurdish areas- no violence for years

And over the past year

Anbar- Under control now, Al Qadea virtually eliminated and the Sunni tribes on our side

Basra- Under the control of the Iraqi army

So what is our key objective now? Securing that eastern border with Iran, pacifying Baghdad, and getting the Iraqi army to continue to move in

We are so so close now

[DjTj]

Cue the "lets pull all our troops out now" crowd

Let's pull [most of] our troops out [in a few years].

(when President Obama can take credit for it).

[Teller]

11 posts? :laugh: Will 8 of them be my posts and a combination of yours and TWA?

:laugh:

Guess I was wrong. I was leaving work when I posted last night. I got back in this morning, and there are a grand total of three posts. Looks like ES is a perfect representation of why traditional news sources don't report progress. It doesn't sell. :doh:

As for the Quran thing, I am not sure of the ramifications either, but I can say its not a negative thing. Hopefully they can avoid the religious debate and just let people be people, and have this "calm" continue to spread

Well, if you're not sure of what that means exactly, I guess I don't feel so bad. :laugh:

It just struck me because (as much as I hate to admit it) Muslims have so much more respect for the Quran than most Christians do for the Bible. And to be able to exchange your holy text with someone with whom you have such storied and fundamental differences, to me, speaks volumes. (No pun intended.)

As for Iraq- The Kurdish areas- no violence for years

And over the past year

Anbar- Under control now, Al Qadea virtually eliminated and the Sunni tribes on our side

Basra- Under the control of the Iraqi army

So what is our key objective now? Securing that eastern border with Iran, pacifying Baghdad, and getting the Iraqi army to continue to move in

We are so so close now

Are we? I'd love to think so. But that border is huge. Even with the base we're building there, I can't see our combined forces securing it; let alone the Iraqis by themselves. Can we cut down the traffic? Sure. But you're not going to stop it completely.

Baghdad's kind of the same way. It's so spread out that trying to control it is a monumental task, IMO. I'm not sure the Iraqis can handle that by themselves either.

Regardless, it's good to see the progress, and the Iraqi army standing up. If the goodwill between Sunni and Shia spreads across the rest of the country, that will really help pacify things.

When you say Al Qaeda has been virtually eliminated, do you mean just in Al Anbar or nationwide? Do we still run the risk of them regrouping if we leave? That's my biggest concern, leaving AQ with a non-Third World country from which to plan its next attack.

[GoSkins561]

Let's pull [most of] our troops out [in a few years].

(when President Obama can take credit for it).

Good thing for youtube, the surge argument is one the democrats will never win.

BTW who are Obama's military advisors?

[Teller]

BTW who are Obama's military advisors?

Messieurs Surrendier and Retreateau.

[@DCGoldPants]

This is great news.

But, why didn't you post the other news that happened there yesterday in Iraq?

I'm sure you know, the woman homicide bomber who killed over a dozen yesterday, including cops outside Baghdad.

And that's the problem. We need to see the WHOLE picture. Yes, this is great news. But, we're in Iraq as a whole. Not just Basra. How do we get the whole country to be calm at the same time?

From the AP

Police: Female suicide bomber kills 15 in Iraq

By HAMID AHMED – 1 hour ago

BAGHDAD (AP) — A female suicide bomber struck near a government compound northeast of Baghdad on Sunday, killing at least 15 people and wounding 40, police said. Nearly 20 suicide attacks this year have been carried out by women.

The bomber detonated her explosives in front of a heavily guarded area that includes the courthouse, the post office and the governor's offices in the city of Baqouba, a police officer said.

The 15 killed included seven policemen, the officer said, giving the casualty toll on condition of anonymity because he wasn't authorized to release the information.

The attack occurred about 1 p.m., a time when large numbers of people were visiting the compound.

A car bomb across the street from the compound killed at least 40 people in April.

The U.S. military has warned that women bombers are being increasingly recruited by al-Qaida in Iraq because they can more easily avoid security searches.

The bomber on Sunday had apparently hidden an explosives belt under a traditional black Islamic robe usually worn by Iraqi women.

One man who was hit by shrapnel in his hand and shoulder said the blast occurred as many people were leaving the compound ahead of the 2 p.m. close of business.

"I was trying to get out of the court when the explosion took place," the witness said, declining to give his name because of security concerns. "I heard some of the injured people saying they saw a woman wearing a black robe blew herself up."

Baqouba, 35 miles northeast of Baghdad and the capital of Diyala province, was an al-Qaida in Iraq stronghold until local tribal leaders joined forces with the Americans to turn against the terror network, helping to curb the violence.

But the city and surrounding areas have seen a series of attacks that have chipped away at recent security gains.

U.S. military figures show the number of female suicide attacks has risen from eight in 2007 to nearly 20 so far this year — most in Diyala province.

Elsewhere in northern Iraq, police said they have arrested six men suspected in the killing of the head of Saddam Hussein's tribe earlier this month.

Sheik Ali al-Nida, the head of Iraq's Albu Nasir tribe, and one of his guards were killed on June 10 when a bomb planted on their car exploded in Tikrit.

"Those arrested included three who are related to Sheik al-Nida and are from the same tribe of Albu Nasir, along with an Egyptian man who was the sheik's personal driver," according to a local police officer with the Major Crimes Directorate that is investigating the attack.

Al-Nida's driver, a longtime employee, confessed that the sheik's clansmen had paid him to stick the bomb to the undercarriage of the car, the officer said.

The officer, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he wasn't authorized to release the information, said the operation was financed abroad but he gave no further details.

Last year, al-Nida founded a so-called Awakening Council in Saddam's home village of Ouja, partnering with U.S. forces to fight Sunni militants in the area.

The officer said investigators suspected al-Qaida in Iraq was behind the attack as part of its campaign of violence against Sunni tribal leaders who have joined forces with the Americans.

In other violence Sunday, a roadside bomb apparently targeting a police patrol struck a civilian car instead, killing four people, including two women, near the northern city of Kirkuk, a police official said, also declining to be identified for the same reason.

Associated Press reporter Saad Abdul-Kadir contributed to this report.

[twa]

This is great news.

But, why didn't you post the other news that happened there yesterday in Iraq?

I'm sure you know, the woman homicide bomber who killed over a dozen yesterday, including cops outside Baghdad.

And that's the problem. We need to see the WHOLE picture. Yes, this is great news. But, we're in Iraq as a whole. Not just Basra. How do we get the whole country to be calm at the same time?

From the AP

[/i]

Typical,can't help but piss all over good news.

Look at Iraq as a whole and there have been great strides in all areas,with more on the way.

If you are expecting no attacks,you of course will be disappointed.(and that is unreasonable imo)

You want more news?

http://www.longwarjournal.org/

Mahdi Army cell leader behind deadly Baghdad bombing

June 18, 2008 8:31 AM ET

By Bill Roggio

fawadi.jpgUS military intelligence indicates Haydar Mahdi Khadum al Fawadi executed car bombing attack in the Hurriyah neighborhood.

Comments (17)

Three senior Mahdi Army commanders captured in Baghdad, Hillah

June 21, 2008 12:18 AM ET

By Bill Roggio

Iraqi Special Operations Forces captured a Mahdi Army leader with "close ties" to Sadr's office in Najaf. Coalition forces captured two senior Mahdi Army commanders in Hillah and Baghdad.

Comments (2)

Iraqi security forces detain senior Sadrist during Maysan operation

June 19, 2008 1:04 PM ET

By Bill Roggio

The mayor of Amarah and deputy provincial governor is detained during a raid. Security operations are under way in neighboring Dhi Qhar and Wasit provinces.

Comments (12)

[@DCGoldPants]

You are totally whiffing on the point.

Why cherry-pick only one side?

My question was......how do we get it to be calm everywhere? Is it possible? Or is it just a moving target?

For 3 months this place has been calm, but this other place has had 40 people killed. Then it switches. and the 1st place has the deaths and the 2nd place has the calm.

Typical, can't see the big picture. I expect after 7 years, we should be allowed to expect long chunks of time between attacks. Not hours.

[SnyderShrugged]

Isnt it interesting that the best news out of Iraq comes from the one area where there isnt a foreign force hanging out?

Basra is more peaceful since the Brits pulled out. Cant be debated.

[@DCGoldPants]

Isnt it interesting that the best news out of Iraq comes from the one area where there isnt a foreign force hanging out?

Basra is more peaceful since the Brits pulled out. Cant be debated.

That would be very interesting.

[Zen-like Todd]

You are totally whiffing on the point.

Why cherry-pick only one side?

My question was......how do we get it to be calm everywhere? Is it possible? Or is it just a moving target?

For 3 months this place has been calm, but this other place has had 40 people killed. Then it switches. and the 1st place has the deaths and the 2nd place has the calm.

Typical, can't see the big picture. I expect after 7 years, we should be allowed to expect long chunks of time between attacks. Not hours.

1) Seven years? We went into Iraq in March of 2003.

2) You are cherry picking at least as much if not more. An incident report is not particularly illuminating. Not nearly as illuminating as a situational report, and even less illuminating than a statistical evaluation of overall levels of violence, Iraqi troop readiness, and various economic and political benchmarks. If you are so interested in the big picture, find that information and post it. Don't use incident reports.

[@DCGoldPants]

My bad.

Things are getting much better. They should be able to govern themselves very soon without any civil war.

[Zen-like Todd]

My bad.

Things are getting much better. They should be able to govern themselves very soon without any civil war.

That's a bit of a cop out sarcastic rejoinder, is it not? No one is suggesting a utopia over there, only that progress has been made over the last eight months.

[@DCGoldPants]

You're 100% Right.

[SnyderShrugged]

That's a bit of a cop out sarcastic rejoinder, is it not? No one is suggesting a utopia over there, only that progress has been made over the last eight months.

The most progress is specifically where the Iraqi's were given back their country. Sounds like a plan.

[twa]

You are totally whiffing on the point.

Why cherry-pick only one side?

My question was......how do we get it to be calm everywhere? Is it possible? Or is it just a moving target?

For 3 months this place has been calm, but this other place has had 40 people killed. Then it switches. and the 1st place has the deaths and the 2nd place has the calm.

Typical, can't see the big picture. I expect after 7 years, we should be allowed to expect long chunks of time between attacks. Not hours.

It will always be a moving target....Just what is calm anywhere in the middle east ?

The attacks and deaths are down markedly in all areas of Iraq,the US casualties are at a low.

Iraq forces are taking control of Iraq as a whole,the citizens are supporting them and giving intel against insurgents/terrorists in record numbers.

Basra, Sadr City has been cleared, Maysan and other border areas are being brought under control.

Which big picture are you looking at?..(and it ain't been 7 yrs btw )

As for SS's point

"Basra is more peaceful since the Brits pulled out. Cant be debated."

Total BS...ask the residents, the Brits did next to nothing then pulled back and let the fanatics run wild.

Added ...From 2007

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/06/AR2007080601401.html

As British forces pull back from Basra in southern Iraq, Shiite militias there have escalated a violent battle against each other for political supremacy and control over oil resources, deepening concerns among some U.S. officials in Baghdad that elements of Iraq's Shiite-dominated national government will turn on one another once U.S. troops begin to draw down.

Three major Shiite political groups are locked in a bloody conflict that has left the city in the hands of militias and criminal gangs, whose control extends to municipal offices and neighborhood streets. The city is plagued by "the systematic misuse of official institutions, political assassinations, tribal vendettas, neighborhood vigilantism and enforcement of social mores, together with the rise of criminal mafias that increasingly intermingle with political actors," a recent report by the International Crisis Group said.

[twa]

The most progress is specifically where the Iraqi's were given back their country. Sounds like a plan.

That has been the plan all along,glad you are onboard.

[SkinsHokieFan]

:laugh:

Well, if you're not sure of what that means exactly, I guess I don't feel so bad. :laugh:

It just struck me because (as much as I hate to admit it) Muslims have so much more respect for the Quran than most Christians do for the Bible. And to be able to exchange your holy text with someone with whom you have such storied and fundamental differences, to me, speaks volumes. (No pun intended.)

Yes there is absolute respect for the Quran. The way you handle it, the way you pass it to someone else, it must all be done in a very proper way. So getting a Quran from a Shia is pretty big, I just have no clue what it means :laugh:

Regardless, it's good to see the progress, and the Iraqi army standing up. If the goodwill between Sunni and Shia spreads across the rest of the country, that will really help pacify things.

When you say Al Qaeda has been virtually eliminated, do you mean just in Al Anbar or nationwide? Do we still run the risk of them regrouping if we leave? That's my biggest concern, leaving AQ with a non-Third World country from which to plan its next attack.

AQ is virtually done over there. I posted an article a few weeks ago talking about it and you no longer see the spectaculor AQ style Sammara Mosque bombings. We have managed to essentially bribe the Sunni's in Anbar to come to our side and there is no sanctuary. AQ across the ME is on the run in general, and their desperation is starting to show with the targets they choose

This is great news.

But, why didn't you post the other news that happened there yesterday in Iraq?

I'm sure you know, the woman homicide bomber who killed over a dozen yesterday, including cops outside Baghdad.

And that's the problem. We need to see the WHOLE picture. Yes, this is great news. But, we're in Iraq as a whole. Not just Basra. How do we get the whole country to be calm at the same time?

From the AP

[/i]

We hear enough bad news from over there. It is a war zone, and its going to be a war zone for a while longer. But there are signs of progress, Basra being one of them, Anbar the other place. Baghdad is the key, but that is going to take some serious effort

[SnyderShrugged]

It will always be a moving target....Just what is calm anywhere in the middle east ?

The attacks and deaths are down markedly in all areas of Iraq,the US casualties are at a low.

Iraq forces are taking control of Iraq as a whole,the citizens are supporting them and giving intel against insurgents/terrorists in record numbers.

Basra, Sadr City has been cleared, Maysan and other border areas are being brought under control.

Which big picture are you looking at?..(and it ain't been 7 yrs btw )

As for SS's point

"Basra is more peaceful since the Brits pulled out. Cant be debated."

Total BS...ask the residents, the Brits did next to nothing then pulled back and let the fanatics run wild.

twa, why are you debating this?

It's really very simple and clear to see.

Basra with foreign forces there = lots of violence and bombings

Basra without foreign forces there = peaceful living

Not much more that can be said. Your point that its somehow BS is troubling in it's inaccuracy.

[twa]

twa, why are you debating this?

It's really very simple and clear to see.

Basra with foreign forces there = lots of violence and bombings

Basra without foreign forces there = peaceful living

Not much more that can be said. Your point that its somehow BS is troubling in it's inaccuracy.

I added a link,but I'll do it again...when the Brits pulled back it was chaos UNTIL Maliki sent in troops to clean it out.(a cleansing that would not have been possible w/o foreign forces help)

If your point was Iraqi central government needed to take control I will agree.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/06/AR2007080601401.html

As British forces pull back from Basra in southern Iraq, Shiite militias there have escalated a violent battle against each other for political supremacy and control over oil resources, deepening concerns among some U.S. officials in Baghdad that elements of Iraq's Shiite-dominated national government will turn on one another once U.S. troops begin to draw down.

Three major Shiite political groups are locked in a bloody conflict that has left the city in the hands of militias and criminal gangs, whose control extends to municipal offices and neighborhood streets. The city is plagued by "the systematic misuse of official institutions, political assassinations, tribal vendettas, neighborhood vigilantism and enforcement of social mores, together with the rise of criminal mafias that increasingly intermingle with political actors," a recent report by the International Crisis Group said.

[SnyderShrugged]

I added a link,but I'll do it again...when the Brits pulled back it was chaos UNTIL Maliki sent in troops to clean it out.(a cleansing that would not have been possible w/o foreign forces help)

If your point was Iraqi central government needed to take control I will agree.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/06/AR2007080601401.html

As British forces pull back from Basra in southern Iraq, Shiite militias there have escalated a violent battle against each other for political supremacy and control over oil resources, deepening concerns among some U.S. officials in Baghdad that elements of Iraq's Shiite-dominated national government will turn on one another once U.S. troops begin to draw down.

Three major Shiite political groups are locked in a bloody conflict that has left the city in the hands of militias and criminal gangs, whose control extends to municipal offices and neighborhood streets. The city is plagued by "the systematic misuse of official institutions, political assassinations, tribal vendettas, neighborhood vigilantism and enforcement of social mores, together with the rise of criminal mafias that increasingly intermingle with political actors," a recent report by the International Crisis Group said.

So it certainly appears that the very best course of action is to pull all foreign forces out of Iraq and allow them to run their own show. It isnt an instant fix, but the evidence of it being successful is obvious.

Agreed, time to bring our folks home.

[twa]

So it certainly appears that the very best course of action is to pull all foreign forces out of Iraq and allow them to run their own show. It isnt an instant fix, but the evidence of it being successful is obvious.

Agreed, time to bring our folks home.

You overlook the fact they are not capable in all areas and need us. :2cents:

We are however bringing our folks home and will continue to do so.

As planned(as they step up,we draw down)

[SnyderShrugged]

You overlook the fact they are not capable in all areas and need us. :2cents:

We are however bringing our folks home and will continue to do so.

As planned(as they step up,we draw down)

If left up to the politicians, they would have claimed they were not capable in Basra too. Sometimes foprcing the issue is the bast way to get the results mose desired.

Facts are facts. Peace reigns when foreign troops get out of Iraq. Time to bring 'em home.