Evolutionism and Creationism?

[MrWill]

Originally posted by jpillian

Okay, no time for the argument -- gotta get to work. Will try to post tonight. I'm definitely a Creationist; which does NOT preclude Evolution. But let's just remember for a second that all historical science is purely THEORY. There is no such thing as historical empirical evidence. If you can't actually observe the phenomenon, or reproduce the phenomenon -- it's always going to remain a theory.

I'll leave that until this evening

BTW -- I think a truly amazing thing is the way the google ads at the bottom of the forum are now creation/evolution ads. HOW DO THEY DO THAT?!!? :laugh:

All of science is basically theory......not much fact. No arguement there. But our species has been working hard to produce these theories.......and there is SOME evidence that they MIGHT be fact. That is much different than blindly following something that has NO real evidence as support. Being a creationist is doing just that. Thinking that the human race started with Adam and Eve and an evil snake that made God realize how imperfect our species really is.....well that is just priceless. :laugh: Anyway, I realize that those who believe in the fairy tales that have long been drained of their feasibility are people who may never wake up to the idea that 'God' may wish for us to think for ourselves.

[SkinsNut73]

Originally posted by docdru

Either way, if you believe in that hoopla, we're all inbreds.

Seriously though, creationism? Wow, I think I'm dumber for having clicked on this link.

It's only speculation on my part...I wasn't there at the time

...though I did get a chance to meet Noah...really nice guy except for the fact that he is an Eagles fan. :laugh:

[MrWill]

Originally posted by Om

Has anyone defined "evolution" for pursposes of this discussion yet? As distinguishied from, say, natural selection?

For that matter, have we defined "creationism" yet? I trust we've simply acepted as the default setting that we're talking about the Christian model here, and not, say, Inuit or Mongol or Ancient Egyptian or Cherokee or Druid or Islam or Aztec or Yanomamo or Dinka or ... ?

The fact that there are so many creationist theories (one per religion) makes it invalid doesn't it? lol. Anyway, if God intended for us to use ANY of the INFINITE number of 'good books' that are in circulation today, I think it was intended for us to recognize the THEMES and MORALS of the stories.....not for us to bury our heads in the literal interpretations of them.

[SkinsNut73]

Originally posted by SkinsFan2456

Yikes.....28%?!? This country is in trouble. It is about time we made post-secondary education free in this country. It is sad that the 72% reqire no evidence for their beliefs. They just blindly cling to the words from a book that was force fed to them at an early age. Living inside a mind like that has to be like being in prison. BTW, this is why organized religion can weaken a population. Spirituality, in general, can really be stunted by everyone resting on their laurels and believing the exact same story, without looking for the answer themselves. If you are in this category, I pity you.

You don't think evolution is "force fed" to us?

My sophomore year in high school, first day of school, my science teacher stands at the front of the class and says: "There are 2 theories as to how we came into existence. One is Creationism, which believes God created the heavens, the earth and mankind. The other is Evolution" She then gets into a 10 minute explanation of the basics of evolution, and then says "Creationism is wrong. That's all you need to know about it. So from now on we will study Evolutionism".

I'm not interested in getting into an arguement on which one is right. (I come to these boards for relief from stress, not to create more by arguing) .All I'm saying is both sides are force-fed their "beliefs". I think "secular" schools should take a closer look at Creationism, and I think your parochial schools should also look at Evolution. I can't say I've ever been in a science class (high school or college) that examined both sides objectively.

[Om]

How exactly does one "examine" Creationism?

[Thiebear]

ALL this time and im the 4th person to click I dont know???

Let me reread this thread again cause I'm with some of the dumbest people around....

[docdru]

Originally posted by SkinsNut73

You don't think evolution is "force fed" to us?

My sophomore year in high school, first day of school, my science teacher stands at the front of the class and says: "There are 2 theories as to how we came into existence. One is Creationism, which believes God created the heavens, the earth and mankind. The other is Evolution" She then gets into a 10 minute explanation of the basics of evolution, and then says "Creationism is wrong. That's all you need to know about it. So from now on we will study Evolutionism".

I'm not interested in getting into an arguement on which one is right. (I come to these boards for relief from stress, not to create more by arguing) .All I'm saying is both sides are force-fed their "beliefs". I think "secular" schools should take a closer look at Creationism, and I think your parochial schools should also look at Evolution. I can't say I've ever been in a science class (high school or college) that examined both sides objectively.

So you think they should teach Creationism in a "science" class. Well, aside from the fact that it's not science there's the issue of which Creationist story. To assume that Christian creationism is correct is cultural hubris. Why not Hindu, or Buddhist or Native American creationist theories?

Or here's a thought, how about we just don't teach religion in public schools?

[MrWill]

Originally posted by SkinsNut73

You don't think evolution is "force fed" to us?

My sophomore year in high school, first day of school, my science teacher stands at the front of the class and says: "There are 2 theories as to how we came into existence. One is Creationism, which believes God created the heavens, the earth and mankind. The other is Evolution" She then gets into a 10 minute explanation of the basics of evolution, and then says "Creationism is wrong. That's all you need to know about it. So from now on we will study Evolutionism".

I'm not interested in getting into an arguement on which one is right. (I come to these boards for relief from stress, not to create more by arguing) .All I'm saying is both sides are force-fed their "beliefs". I think "secular" schools should take a closer look at Creationism, and I think your parochial schools should also look at Evolution. I can't say I've ever been in a science class (high school or college) that examined both sides objectively.

OK....I'll bite, tell me the objective, but feasible side of creationism. I don't know about you folks.....but, I think panspermia is a more likely scenario than creationism. For those who have not heard of this, it is the idea that life on this planet was seeded 3.5 billion years ago with genetic material from another world. Now, that is far fetched.....but if you want to wax philosophical without the backbone of evidence, there is my two cents. :2cents:

[SkinsNut73]

Originally posted by Om

How exactly does one "examine" Creationism?

Same way you examine evolution...no? There are many scientists (smarter than those of us on this board) who also believe in Creationism...maybe not in Jesus creating the world, but a "higher power".

[China]

Perhaps it is both as Redman said. Perhaps Adam and Eve were just the first two humans imparted with a soul by god.

[Thiebear]

Have you been to the airport?

Have you been to the Mall?

How can you not look around and say there is no inbreeding going on?

I'm not saying the Springfield Mall is the scientific evidence of Creationism but it comes really close without carbon dating .

[pez]

Originally posted by NavyDave

Creationismm

Answer the GoD Father and God Mother.

In Evolution some fish crawled out of the sea grew legs, shed its scales grew hair developed a fondness for banannas the eons later had a portfolio and and addiction to capo latte?

My problewm with the evolution with man is if we evolved from apes why are they still apes and why arent the ones still here evolving?

That is like asking, why aren't all pigs pot-belly pigs.... Not all living things take to the evolutionary trail.. That is why there were different version of primitive man, lucky enough for us, one of those groups evolved into us.

I believe in both. I believe that god started life and implemented evolution as his means of upgrading his creations. Everyone (including god) has the right to change their mind about something they have done. Good example... the floods... Another good example... the dinosaurs. We know that god can screw up at times (look at the platypus) so why can't evolution and survival of the fittest be his means for fixing those things?

God is like a car manufacturer, he likes to put out a better model each year.

[skinsfan51]

Originally posted by Golgo-13

One more thing....why the h@ll are poeple so afraid to teach BOTH theories in the classroom??? God forbid we actually teach people both sides of the issue and let them decide for themselves. I mean, that's what we have @sshole NE intellectuals for, right? To make our decisions for us. :gus: :gus: :doh:

BRAVO, BRAVO, BRAVO!!!! THANK YOU FOR SAYING IT, GOLGO. God forbid that we'd raise a generation of young people who actually think and make decisions for themselves. :doh:

[skinsfan51]

Originally posted by Shakermaker

I had an English class in college where in one book the author was talking about Evolution. The older woman in the class said "Why is this in the book? Everybody knows that its a lie and the Earth is only (I'm guessing she said somewhere in between 3 and 7 thousand) years old."

*Honestly, I don't remember how old she said.

Then I said. "What about the Dino's?

She said. "They all drown in the flood from Noah's Ark."

and I said "What about the underwater Dino's?"

she got mad at me and told me I had no faith.

Shaker, I think you challenged her beyond what she felt able to comprehend. But the answer is not real hard. Noah's flood changed everything about the environment. The global climate changed. The food supply would have been depleted from underwater volcanic activity, change in water temp., etc. Dinos eat a lot of food. If the food supply is cut short then many would die. It's a viable theory.

BUT...what's to say that they all died? There is evidence today that some are still alive. Perhaps the Lochness Monster? What about the animal brought up on the Japanese fishing boat many years ago? The picture seems pretty clear. The ocean is a vast, deep place that we know less about than space. My belief is that there are still some dinos alive in the water (and maybe on land, too!). Wouldn't that throw a wrench in evolutionary theory? :laugh: (But they'd come up with some other answer, because the theory must be protected at ALL costs--even at the expense of the facts.)

[docdru]

Originally posted by skinsfan51

BRAVO, BRAVO, BRAVO!!!! THANK YOU FOR SAYING IT, GOLGO. God forbid that we'd raise a generation of young people who actually think and make decisions for themselves. :doh:

Why are we so afraid to teach magic in science classrooms, why are we so afriad to teach the children that a giant taco created all life forms. Let the kids decide for themselves. See, this is what we get when we let ******* NE intellectuals run our schoolboards, they try to stop the teaching of Taco created universes. EQUAL TIME!!

This board has reached new levels of idiocy.

[MrWill]

Originally posted by China

Perhaps it is both as Redman said. Perhaps Adam and Eve were just the first two humans imparted with a soul by god.

Or, perhaps Adam and Eve never really existed.....and the story was intended to make you realize how powerful a force temptation is.

Not that I want to squash my credibility, but I will be a high school biology teacher as of this Monday (I moved over from working in biotechnology). This thread has given me a great idea. At some point in the school year I am going to stage a debate on this very topic. I am going to write on the board all known theories of the origin of life on earth, and then I will allow the students to choose which idea they want to defend. BTW, as a biology teacher I feel it is my duty to not force anything down their throat, but to present many concepts (like this one) as probable.....not fact.

Regardless, when it comes to religious literature, literal interpretation is not the way to go. I do believe there is divine purpose in the religious ideas set forth by human culture......but I do not think that the revelation we are all looking for is as easy as saying.....it must be true, it is in the bible. It is much more of a challenge than we all think to become enlightened. If it were as easy as reading a book, it would be a worthless experience.

[skinsfan51]

Originally posted by SkinsFan2456

Yikes.....28%?!? This country is in trouble. It is about time we made post-secondary education free in this country. It is sad that the 72% reqire no evidence for their beliefs. They just blindly cling to the words from a book that was force fed to them at an early age. Living inside a mind like that has to be like being in prison. BTW, this is why organized religion can weaken a population. Spirituality, in general, can really be stunted by everyone resting on their laurels and believing the exact same story, without looking for the answer themselves. If you are in this category, I pity you.

Skinsfan, I'm sorry, but this is a very poor representation of Christians/Creationists. You assert that we are all dumb sheet that live on blind faith. That's silly and you should know better. There are Ph Ds in science that could present the facts that show that creation is a very plausible answer in the origins debate. They would also so the ENORMOUS holes in the <i>theory</i> (it IS still a theory) of evoltuion. They would turn you in circles.

Two resources that I recommend to people who are ingnorant of the abundance of evidence for creation are:

http://www.icg.org (The Institute for Creation Research)

http://www.answersingenesis.com (Answers in Genesis)

One thing you said was correct. This country IS in trouble. But it's not from creation-believing Christians. It's from lying evolutionists.

[MrWill]

Originally posted by Thiebear

Have you been to the airport?

Have you been to the Mall?

How can you not look around and say there is no inbreeding going on?

I'm not saying the Springfield Mall is the scientific evidence of Creationism but it comes really close without carbon dating .

Not sure I get your point there. I know people are dumb enough to inbreed.....just as they are dumb enough to commit genocide. What does this have to do with being an idea in support of creationism? If you ask me, the rednecks that you speak of are the first in line when it comes to blindly believing what they are told until the day they die. Those people ARE your support system....they would follow the creationists to the end of the earth because they have not and will not bother to learn the alternative ideas (i.e. get an education).

[smsmith40]

I really wanted to sit out yet another thread on Creationism but I just can't help myself.

Can everybody please be clear. Evolution is a scientific theory based on study and evidence. It takes established facts like fossil finds and observed behaviour and shapes a theory that fits these facts. It allows us to make predictions which can then either disprove the theory or add the the weight of evidence supporting it. It can NEVER be proven

Adam and Eve is one of many creation stories. It is a religious belief. It is based on faith, and a oral/written cutural record, it can make no predictions about the world around us, it can neither be proven or disproven. It has no basis in rational science.

Both should be taught in school One should be taught in a science class the other in cultural studies . Comparison is pointless, its apples and oranges.

[Funkyalligator]

This is one discussion I will avoid because I have serious problems with one side.....and would end up making very disparaging comments about people that support it...

[Om]

Originally posted by SkinsNut73

Same way you examine evolution...no? There are many scientists (smarter than those of us on this board) who also believe in Creationism...maybe not in Jesus creating the world, but a "higher power".

No ... the static belief in the Christian model of Creationism is not ANYTHING like the ongoing scientific theory of evolution. Nor is it ANYTHING like scientists---or anyone else---allowing for the existence of a "higher power."

I asked before if anyone had tried to define the terms "creationism" and "evolution" for purposes of this debate, but nobody has ventured a try yet. In my humble opinion, right now both terms are being thrown around here far too loosely to have much real meaning. Few of us are even speaking the same language.

It's almost like the political threads.

[skinsfan51]

Originally posted by docdru

Why are we so afraid to teach magic in science classrooms, why are we so afraid to teach the children that a giant taco created all life forms. Let the kids decide for themselves. See, this is what we get when we let ******* NE intellectuals run our schoolboards, they try to stop the teaching of Taco created universes. EQUAL TIME!!

This board has reached new levels of idiocy.

Nice try, doc, and typical. What's your evidence for a Taco creating the universe? Maybe you'd like to show us. No? Then don't propose such a foolish idea.

But there is PLENTY of evidence for creation and against evolution. I'm not going to turn this into a long post because you are closed-minded, but the complexity and OBVIOUS design of our universe and everything in it is clear evidence of a Designer. No one in their right mind would try to claim that the computer monitor you are looking at right now evolved. They would be locked up. But when a man puts on a clean white coat and proclaims in some science journal that the human body, INFINATLEY more complex than your computer monitory, evolved, the masses just nod their furry heads and say, "Baaaaaahhh, baaaaahhh." You tell me, then, who is following blind faith?

:2cents:

[Om]

You have "evidence," 51? Please share.

[pez]

Originally posted by skinsfan51

Nice try, doc, and typical. What's your evidence for a Taco creating the universe? Maybe you'd like to show us. No? Then don't propose such a foolish idea.

But there is PLENTY of evidence for creation and against evolution. I'm not going to turn this into a long post because you are closed-minded, but the complexity and OBVIOUS design of our universe and everything in it is clear evidence of a Designer. No one in their right mind would try to claim that the computer monitor you are looking at right now evolved. They would be locked up. But when a man puts on a clean white coat and proclaims in some science journal that the human body, INFINATLEY more complex than your computer monitory, evolved, the masses just nod their furry heads and say, "Baaaaaahhh, baaaaahhh." You tell me, then, who is following blind faith?

:2cents:

Actually my computer monitor DID evolve... That is how we get better products, through the evolution of technology....

[Thiebear]

Originally posted by SkinsFan2456

Not sure I get your point there. I know people are dumb enough to inbreed.....just as they are dumb enough to commit genocide. What does this have to do with being an idea in support of creationism? If you ask me, the rednecks that you speak of are the first in line when it comes to blindly believing what they are told until the day they die. Those people ARE your support system....they would follow the creationists to the end of the earth because they have not and will not bother to learn the alternative ideas (i.e. get an education).

Don't dig too deep into a joke... It may not have been too funny to begin with but discussing it makes it worse...

.

I prefer not to get too deep into these conversations as I have no ammunition. I would like to believe in a higher power as opposed to coming from a protoplasm...

(nothing against protoplasm's if any of your relatives are watching though)...