Jesus Camp

[rictus58]

This place has nothing on Jesus Ranch

http://youtube.com/watch?v=BXizUm9Dow4&mode=related&search=

[MikeInJc aka M.I.A.]

waiting for Sarges reply in 3....2....1....

[EersSkins05]

I disagree - it's the EXACT opposite. The left views Christians as the enemy because THEY are the ones who are intolerant of any other religion. From a political view, the left is simply trying to uphold the constitution rights (for religious freedom) of all of us. A Wiccan isn't intolerant of Christianity (speaking from a religious viewpoint), because as a religion it really has no effect on the Wiccan. Indifference, I guess, although that doesn't seem like quite the right word. More that I have no problem whatsoever what my friends, neighbors, coworkers, etc practice; except when their intolerance and FEAR, FEAR, FEAR causes them to project their views on to me, or limit my inherent rights somehow. Christians are so afraid of anyone who's not. It seems so funny - I'm secure in my spirituality, and it would never occur to me to worry about anyone else's. I don't worry about their dogma or creed, because it isn't mine. And I respect and honor the next person's right to enjoy their Universal Being, Creative Intelligence, Higher Power or God however they wish. Christian strike me as very insecure, but mostly afraid. And aside from a philosophical debate, it has always struck me as a bit presumtuous and a lot egotistical to assume that "my" way was the only way. A bit silly if you ask me. There are a lot of paths to the same light. (thank god)

And yes, I'm making some very broad generalizations here...

I couldn't agree more w/ this post.

[Zguy28]

What are your thoughts? IMHO, I think this is nothing more than brainwashing and a cult behavior praying on children. . .

I found nothing wrong with what I saw except one thing which I will state below in response to Dfitzo53. After all Jesus said:

Matthew 19:13-15

13Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them. 14Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." 15When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.

I also find it amusing that you inadvertantly used the word "praying" instead of "preying." :laugh:

"At five I got saved because I just wanted more out of life."

I'm not sure what to think about that.

You shouldn't think well of it. Being "saved" isn't about fulfillment, wrong motive.

At five years old, how many of these children have committed sins that they need to brutalized over and made to feel such anguish?

Maybe I watched a different trailer? I didn't see brutalization, unless you say teaching your kids the 10 Commandments is brutal? I know my 5 year old breaks them almost everyday; he's a liar, covetous, you name it. Show me a kid or person who's not. The difference is I teach them its WRONG. I know, how un-PC of me...what say you?

Also, being willing to give up your life for Jesus is Christian doctrine. Christians are all commanded to love God more than anything, even their lives (martyrdom).

Mark 8:34-36

34Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 35For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it. 36What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul?

Luke 9:61-62

61Still another said, "I will follow you, Lord; but first let me go back and say good bye to my family." 62Jesus replied, "No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God."

ANd yes I would say Christianity is waging a spiritual Jihad (Holy War) against the sin in our culture, but not against the people with violence. (And no, Fred Phelps et al is not representative of Christendom.) Therein lies the difference Chomerics since its obvious you're trying to compare Christians to Islamic Jihad.

[CrabR]

ANd yes I would say Christianity is waging a spiritual Jihad (Holy War) against the sin in our culture,

define sin

[chomerics]

Getting ideas for threads from Keith Olberdork again?

You know what, I watched that tonight as well.

I'll sum it up for everyone who didn't get to see that show.

It was a great big bash a Christian circle jerk for the "free thinker" crowd. Complete with a tool who says Christians are fascists and they are trying to set up an Oligarchy in the US.

Actually no, I saw it on Bill Maher if you must know. I don't watch Oberman until 12pm. . .

[chomerics]

my only comment on this is that Im always suprised by how the far left loves to attack christians at every level. This is a party that wants to promote diverisity on every level, except for christians. I think if it was wiccan camp we wouldnt have heard a chirp from chom or the other far leftys.

Im not christian, and they piss me off too just like the rest of you. The strick liquor laws, no strip clubs in Va, and the list goes on. I have my ideas on why the far left views christians as the enemy, stalin comes to mind(majority of the populace is christian, marginalize that base and you weaken their opposition to rule).

If thats not true, I will never understand the far lefts hatred of a belief system other than theirs when they preach tolerance of belief systems other than yours.

Ahhh, always "the far left is the problem" I guess you missed this part of my post wolf. . . why am I not surprised you only see what you want . . .

And yes, I am also offended by the granola eating hippies who name their children Tree and Rainbow, while never bathing, home schooling and keeping thier child sheltered from life. I do recognize it goes both ways, I was just surprised that people actually sent their kids to places like this.

Yea, I'm all for Wiccan camps. Why not try to keep the topic on target, as your left bashing is nothing more then biased hatred towards people not like you. For me, it is about showing something which I did not know existed in this country, and it is pretty far out there in terms of how to raise children, but don't let the facts get in your way of painting the evil wiberals as the ill will of society.

[Zguy28]

define sin

Main Entry: 1sin

Pronunciation: 'sin

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English sinne, from Old English synn; akin to Old High German sunta sin and probably to Latin sont-, sons guilty, est is -- more at IS

1 a : an offense against religious or moral law b : an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible <it's a sin to waste food> c : an often serious shortcoming : FAULT

2 a : transgression of the law of God b : a vitiated state of human nature in which the self is estranged from God

synonym see CRABR

[Teller]

Hey chom, just the other day you were explaining to me how critical it is to realize that terrorists are not indicative of Islam as a whole.

I'm sure you were just about to explain that the same is true of Christianity. Or are you just going to do exactly what you accused me of?

[chomerics]

If it wasnt for the far left I think the right would be giving me my strip clubs and 24 hour liquour.

Yea, those radical right fanatics that want to place the bible in the schools, teach creationism in public arena while not teaching any other religious philosophy, ban pornography and call up the radio and tv stations nonstop when something like a breast is shown on TV are really pushing for strip clubs and liquor licenses :doh:

To bad logic messes up a good old left bashing huh. I thouhgt the left was the hedonistic party, and that's why over 75% of evangelicals are righties. Who knew the right was for free snatch and less decency laws :doh:

[chomerics]

Hey chom, just the other day you were explaining to me how critical it is to realize that terrorists are not indicative of Islam as a whole.

I'm sure you were just about to explain that the same is true of Christianity. Or are you just going to do exactly what you accused me of?

I agree totally, that this is not indicitive of Christianity as a whole. I was taken back because I did not know it existed. Just as I view the extremists propagandizing their children in Islamic worlds as bad, I view this as bad too. I never knew we had this type of screwed up brainwashing going on in our country I never thought other then a few nutjobs, this was an issue, but then again, I'm really not surprised.

[DCsportsfan53]

Beautiful quite by the pastor promoting all of this:

Pastor Fisher: "I want to see them as radically laying down their lives for the gospel as they are over in Pakistan and Israel and Palestine and all those different places."

These people are nuts and it's nothing but a tragedy what they are doing to these children. These are sick, twisted individuals.

[CrabR]

In other words you want to inflict your religious laws on this culture

Question: When the old man sinned[Numbers 15:32-36] for picking up sticks on the Sabbath and God had him murdered, did he go to heaven or hell for that sin ?

synonym see CRABR

Matthew 7:1

Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Luke 6:37

Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned:

James 4:12

There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?

[Destino]

I don’t have a problem with Christian themed camps/groups for kids. The fundamental basics of Christianity are to walk with Jesus and oppose sin. For those of you confused as to what that means:

The 10 Commandments

You shall have no other gods before me.

You shall not make for yourself an idol.

You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God.

Remember the Sabbath, and keep it holy.

Honor your father and your mother.

You shall not murder.

You shall not commit adultery.

You shall not steal.

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

You shall not covet your neighbor's wife.

You shall not covet your neighbor's house.

Then there are the basic 7 deadly sins:

Pride

Greed

Envy

Gluttony

Lust

Wrath

Sloth

As many have pointed out much of these are not exclusive to Christianity, so you can rest easy because I have made this point for you. My point in posting this is simple: what in the above would some of you oppose being taught to children? My guess is some of the religious commandments in the 10. That’s fine you aren’t religious but let’s focus on the sins that have little to do with religion shall we? If you spy one you think is a great thing and not a sin at all feel free to share with the class.

I personally think that sins are bad and that the part of the price of sin is seen in the consequences of sinning. If you are a man and haven’t yet noticed how much idiocy results from pride, you’re blind. Same applies for lust. If you are a member of a family that was destroyed by infidelity then you realize that adultery does indeed come with a price paid by others. I can go on but you get the point and should understand my position to a certain extent.

I do take issue with Christian groups at times however. I feel that they don’t focus on the above as much as they focus on political issues of the day. Sex related sinning consumes 90% of the dialogue and I’ll be frank – I think it’s because too many Christian are placing politics before Jesus. If you find that insulting that’s fine, I’m not taking it back, I see that as being sadly the truth. I think this corrupts the faith and makes it plainly dishonest to observers.

[Zguy28]

In other words you want to inflict your religious laws on this culture

Question: When the old man sinned[Numbers 15:32-36] for picking up sticks on the Sabbath and God had him murdered, did he go to heaven or hell for that sin ?

Matthew 7:1

Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Luke 6:37

Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned:

James 4:12

There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?

Well, since we all have seen evidence of your beliefs, its not judging, just observation of your apostacy. And as usual poor exegesis.

[Zguy28]

I don’t have a problem with Christian themed camps/groups for kids. The fundamental basics of Christianity are to walk with Jesus and oppose sin. For those of you confused as to what that means:

The 10 Commandments

You shall have no other gods before me.

You shall not make for yourself an idol.

You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God.

Remember the Sabbath, and keep it holy.

Honor your father and your mother.

You shall not murder.

You shall not commit adultery.

You shall not steal.

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

You shall not covet your neighbor's wife.

You shall not covet your neighbor's house.

Then there are the basic 7 deadly sins:

Pride

Greed

Envy

Gluttony

Lust

Wrath

Sloth

As many have pointed out much of these are not exclusive to Christianity, so you can rest easy because I have made this point for you. My point in posting this is simple: what in the above would some of you oppose being taught to children? My guess is some of the religious commandments in the 10. That’s fine you aren’t religious but let’s focus on the sins that have little to do with religion shall we? If you spy one you think is a great thing and not a sin at all feel free to share with the class.

I personally think that sins are bad and that the part of the price of sin is seen in the consequences of sinning. If you are a man and haven’t yet noticed how much idiocy results from pride, you’re blind. Same applies for lust. If you are a member of a family that was destroyed by infidelity then you realize that adultery does indeed come with a price paid by others. I can go on but you get the point and should understand my position to a certain extent.

I do take issue with Christian groups at times however. I feel that they don’t focus on the above as much as they focus on political issues of the day. Sex related sinning consumes 90% of the dialogue and I’ll be frank – I think it’s because too many Christian are placing politics before Jesus. If you find that insulting that’s fine, I’m not taking it back, I see that as being sadly the truth. I think this corrupts the faith and makes it plainly dishonest to observers.

Amen Destino. Good post!

[chomerics]

ANd yes I would say Christianity is waging a spiritual Jihad (Holy War) against the sin in our culture, but not against the people with violence.

I completely disagree. The only reason there is no violence now is because the religious right is in power, I seem to remember a ton of abortion clinic bombings in the 90's when they were out of power.

Once a faction is in power, the violence stops, that is pretty much indicitive of all human nature across all boundaries. It is how society operates on a hole, and they often resort to violence when they are feeling like they are being repressed and not heard.

Therein lies the difference Chomerics since its obvious you're trying to compare Christians to Islamic Jihad.

Nice jump, and I like how everyone sees a connection between radical christianity and radical islam, and no my intention wasn't to expose compare Christianity to jihad, but instead to get thoughts of people on this type of behavior. I have seen numerous threads about stopping the teaching of radical islamic thoughts, and I was wondering what people thought about radical christian teachings.

In other words, I wanted to know if people would justify this kind of program. For the record, I believe both are wrong, but I am currious as to why one will justify one sect of a religion that is out there and not another.

[Teller]

For the record, I believe both are wrong, but I am currious as to why one will justify one sect of a religion that is out there and not another.

One is strapping bombs to its children. The other is not. I'm not saying this video is right. I'm just saying that any comparison between it and radical islam is ridiculous.

[Beaudry]

No, I actually saw this on TV and I was quite disturbed.

Chom, you are such a sissy boy. You are "disturbed" by watching that trailer? I have a suggestion: Grow a pair and quit whining about everything. "Oh no, this video is so disturbing! I'm going to hide in my fortress of "The American Prospect" magazines!"

I went to a methodist bible camp as a kid. I wasn't methodist, but my friends were going so I went, too. Mostly it was just regular camp with canoeing, crafts, etc. I think about an hour or so a day they read bible stories and such. I can definately say that it wasn't like this.

My bible camp story:

I got in trouble for something and was punished. A camp counselor gave me a choice of spending 1 hour reading the bible or a Star Trek book that he brought with him. I picked the bible because even at 12 years old I knew that reading Star Trek was the least cool thing to do.

[Destino]

I completely disagree. The only reason there is no violence now is because the religious right is in power, I seem to remember a ton of abortion clinic bombings in the 90's when they were out of power.

Once a faction is in power, the violence stops, that is pretty much indicitive of all human nature across all boundaries. It is how society operates on a hole, and they often resort to violence when they are feeling like they are being repressed and not heard.

I completely disagree. The reason there is no violence now is largely because American culture disapproves of it. Religions have value IMO, and probably contrary to your own, but let's be honest, they can be maniulated to promote or oppose violence. It's our culture that seperates us from the animals busy with the work of blowing up all those that disagree with them. Christians in the past of have been violent, Muslims in the present at violent, and athiest communists have been violent. The common link between them is a culture in which slaughter those different was ok.

Nice jump, and I like how everyone sees a connection between radical christianity and radical islam, and no my intention wasn't to expose compare Christianity to jihad, but instead to get thoughts of people on this type of behavior. I have seen numerous threads about stopping the teaching of radical islamic thoughts, and I was wondering what people thought about radical christian teachings.

Where is the "radical" stuff you are talking about. Asking if you are with Jesus or not - is no where near the level of "kill your enemies".

In other words, I wanted to know if people would justify this kind of program. For the record, I believe both are wrong, but I am currious as to why one will justify one sect of a religion that is out there and not another.

Easily - strong faith isn't the problem and never has been. Teaching children to strap on bombs and blow up their enemies is the problem.

[Beaudry]

Don't know if it is accurate, but here is a link to a table of abortion clinic violence.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_viol.htm

[chomerics]

One is strapping bombs to its children. The other is not.

Oh, I agree with you there, and I think comparing radical christianity to radical islamic beliefs are like night and day when you look at the violent aspects of islam. . . but isn't that just because we are the ones in power? I can definately see the radical zealots of ANY religion, not just christianity or islam using similar methods to get their way. The always use the doctrine the end justifies the means, which I disagre with BTW.

I'm not saying this video is right. I'm just saying that any comparison between it and radical islam is ridiculous.

I also wouldn't say a comparisson is "ridiculous", because they are both teaching a fundamental and radical form of a religion. I can see a comparisson, and I think others can as well. It does not mean they are as "bad" as fundamental islam, or even on the same level in terms of doctrine, but as a whole, and as a foundation, they are both linked because they are using the same techniques. The belief systems have a lot more in common with each other then anyone wants to admit.

That doesn't mean Christians are terrorists, nothing of the sort, what i am saying is the fundamental teachings of the religion at its extreme elements are very similar in terms of their desires for their countries and society. They are very ideologically similar in terms of what they want, they just have a different way of going about achieving it. . .

[prophet]

Lets ban

1. vacation bible school

2. all private christian schools

3. all christian colleges

4. sunday school

5. church in general

:doh:

These kids were at a church camp what do you expect/happens at church type functions? geez

So if this kids perform in dance, skits, prayer there wacko?

If this is what you call extreme count me in!

[chomerics]

Chom, you are such a sissy boy. You are "disturbed" by watching that trailer? I have a suggestion: Grow a pair and quit whining about everything. "Oh no, this video is so disturbing! I'm going to hide in my fortress of "The American Prospect" magazines!"

I think anytime children are indoctrinated into a cultish following it is disturbing. I see the problems on both sides of the isle, not just one.

I went to a methodist bible camp as a kid. I wasn't methodist, but my friends were going so I went, too. Mostly it was just regular camp with canoeing, crafts, etc. I think about an hour or so a day they read bible stories and such. I can definately say that it wasn't like this.

Yes, and this thread was not about any sunday school activities, or bible study circuits, but Jesus Camp specifically. If you had a good experience, that is great, but it is not relavent to this thread. I wanted to get a discussion on this specific camp, and what people thought about this type of indoctrination into an ideological belief.

[prophet]

imagine what it would be like if chomerics walked into the national play "Heavens Gates Hells flames".

:laugh: