Am I being an Idiot or a Nice Guy (Read before voting)

[wskin44]

Mass, I would say that you are doing the right thing. Besides, it will keep you out of your cellar for a few months.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

No way dude he's got to say .. "Impressive....Most Impressive" or "Obi Wan.. Has Tought you well" Or what I like to say in WoW Duels.. "When I left you I was but the learner, now I am the master!"

People are generally surprised to hear how little actually talking goes on in the midst of one of our tournament lists. Especially in the initial rounds of a tournament.

Generally you're concentrating so much on what you're trying to do and what your opponent is trying to do that there's no time or place for whiticism or comedy. While you're joking the other fighter is going to be taking that time to beat you into the ground. About the most you hear is "Good!" (meaning the blow landed), "Light!" (meaning the blow didn't have sufficient force - though often a shake of the head replaces this), "Skip!" (meaning the blow didn't land squarely - though often a shake of the head replaces this), or "HOLD!!!!" (calling for an immediate stop for safety reasons).

In the later rounds, where it becomes as much a chess match as the earlier rounds are a barroom brawl, there is occassionally some conversation. Generally just snippets as the fighters are feinting and posturing or after a flurry of blows are thrown and they reset to continue the fight. Only very rarely is it humorous or glib conversation.

Now on the battlefield, the noise level is obscene. People yelling orders, pointing out opponent's positions, weapon dispostitions, movements, etc... It often gets to a point where you can't even hear yourself think on the battlefield. Which is why those of us who train together constantly have an advantage on the field. We KNOW where each other are going to be, without the need for the excessive shouting and such.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Mass,

this meat the nice guy criteria. Atleast up in Mass, you shouldn't have to deal with the Romans as we do here. My best man from my wedding used to go to the week long tourny in Penn every year. Personally, I never got beyond Dagerghear (sp?), but was surprised at how much fun it was. It does make one realize how far off hollywood is when it portrays old combats. JUst from that one gets the idea it would be hard to chear at the end of a combat..."woohoo 90 % of the people I knew are dead, but we kicked the snots out of that group..."

Ok. So you're somewhat familiar with the SCA and medieval reenactment in general. Yes, there is a huge difference between reality and what hollywood likes to portray. We actually have a scripted "Conan" skit to show that which we use at out demonstrations.

Sorry if I missed it: is the tourney sword and board, 2-handers or choice?

The tourney is fought with the individual's weapon of choice until the finals (which are best of 3). In the finals it's always matched weapons. Each fighter gets an opportunity to choose a style of weapon (sw & shld, florentine, greatweapon, etc...), then, if a tie-breaker is necessary, the King chooses the last style.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Mass, I would say that you are doing the right thing. Besides, it will keep you out of your cellar for a few months.

No. It'll just keep me doing non-firearms related things in the cellar. I've got some armor and weapons to fix or rebuild before the tourney. I also have some garb (clothing) to get made before then.

[Prosperity]

What do you use? Sword spear? Are there other weapons like maces? Or does everyone use a variation of the rattan?

[Mass_SkinsFan]

What do you use? Sword spear? Are there other weapons like maces? Or does everyone use a variation of the rattan?

I'll give you the general background, then the specifics of what I use.

There are eight (8) different combat forms..

weapon & shield: any single hand weapon plus a shield

double weapon: two, single hand weapons

2 handed weapon: a single weapon, wielded with both hands (7' max. length)

pole arm: glaive, pike, or other pole mounted weapon (7.5' max. length)

spear: 9' pole with a thrusting tip.

combat archery: Longbow or crossbow with blunted tip ammo.

siege weapons: catapult, arballist, treb and other associated weapons & equipment

non-contact participant: water-bearers, scouts, other participants who cannot be hit.

Single hand weapons include sword, axe, mace, and any other single handed weapon of the period. The weapon may have a thrusting tip in the end, if applicable.

Two hand weapons include, great sword, great axe and great mace. Handle may not be more than 18". Must have a handguard/crosspiece or must be used with full gauntlets.

Mass weapons (axe, mace, hammer and all 2 hand weapons) are considered to do more damage. A blow to the hip or shoulder is considered fatal with a mass weapon, whereas they only disable the limb with a regular sword. Axe blows to the inner thigh are also considered fatal.

If you really want more specific info, let me know.

Personally, I hold every weapon form authorization except double weapon. I generally fight sword and shield, polearm (glaive), combat archery, or command a siege engine.

[Prosperity]

yeah what about the bows? How do you use those in fights? Specific tactics I mean. It sounds like you either get the guy in the first shot or you lose.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

yeah what about the bows? How do you use those in fights? Specific tactics I mean. It sounds like you either get the guy in the first shot or you lose.

Combat Archery (CA) is obviously not a tournament weapons form. It's designed for use in battles/melees. Combat archery, like all artillery, is a combat support service. It is the role of CA to provide additional firepower to the infantry while minimizing it's open risk to attack by the enemy infantry and CA. Arrows can be blocked by shields, and hits have to be of sufficient force to be accepted by a fighter for them to count. Effectively, they have to hit with at least as much force as a sword blow, but not so heavy as to cause actual injury. It's a tough balance. Similarly, archers are fighters. They may carry additional weapons, but cannot abandon a bow on the field. They must be able to take a blow and die defensively(safely). Believe me, the fighters take great joy in dispatching archers.

Combat Archers work in one of two ways.

a. En masse. Actually, the most historically accurate way of using archers on the field. In this style, a number of archers form a unit of their own and, while standing well behind the protection of the infantry, lob masses of ammunition into the enemy formation. The cry of "incoming" can be heard across the field when a volley goes off.

b. Sniping. Nothing leads to greater fear in a line than the cry of "Archer in the line!!!" from his or her companions. Individual archers may roam the field, sliding into the line at points to fire nearly point blank into the opposing line, or down the line into the exposed sword side of fighters in the shield wall. Effectively they become a 50' long spear, capable of killing you before you even know the archer is there.

As you may guess, archers are not the most well loved and respected fighters on the field. They've gained a little more respect now that they're full-contact fighters and required to wear the same level of armor as every other fighter and to be able to take a shot. Until about three years ago, archers were "touch kill" only... meaning a fighter who did chase down an archer couldn't smack him. Additionally, there's that range thing. A minimally trained archer could kill a Knight, King, Duke, etc... who had years of experience and training before they could get anywhere near the archer. That lead to a lot of resentment in the fighter community. Including one Knight/King who made it known that he would not give ANY award to ANY fighter who held a combat archery or siege authorization. Whether they'd ever used it on the field or not.

[Matt [Redskins Fan]]

I try very hard not to rip on other Redskins fans.

That tradition continues here.

*bites tongue*

[Mass_SkinsFan]

']I try very hard not to rip on other Redskins fans.

That tradition continues here.

*bites tongue*

Matt, go right ahead. I started the thread with the intent of seeing how other people viewed this.

[ashburnskinsfan]

Your comments on archers being unliked by knights is funny.

The longbowman has a special place in English history because of his success against the French at Agincourt and during the Hundred Years War.

Developing the stength and co-ordination to fire an English longbow was such that it required year-round training. It is said that in medieval Christian England, it was not mandatory to attend church on Sunday, but longbow practice for adult men was!

Wikipedia has a reasonable overview:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_longbow

[Extreme]

i'm really good with the nunchucks and bowstaff. :laugh:

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Your comments on archers being unliked by knights is funny.

Yes, we constantly kid the whiners that they're actually being quite in period when they complain about the archers.

The longbowman has a special place in English history because of his success against the French at Agincourt and during the Hundred Years War.

Developing the stength and co-ordination to fire an English longbow was such that it required year-round training. It is said that in medieval Christian England, it was not mandatory to attend church on Sunday, but longbow practice for adult men was!

Very True. However, it was never really considered a "Knightly" weapon. Knights were taught to shoot, but more often with a lighter bow, as part of their training as a squire. Mostly as a hunting weapon, not a war weapon. The English Longbowman holds a special place in military history, for they were the beginning of the end for the heavily armored knight on the field. The advent of the crossbow, gonne and cannon would only seal the fate of the Knight.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

i'm really good with the nunchucks and bowstaff. :laugh:

Two styles of weapon that we don't allow actually.

We do have Japanese personas in the SCA, though the "purists" decry and denegrate their inclusion in the Society. We're supposed to be focused on "Western Europe and societies that had contact with Western Europe prior to the seventeenth century.", and while there was some contact with Japan, it was exceptionally limited, from what little I've read on the topic.

We don't allow the particular weapons you've mentioned for safety reasons.....

All "flail type" weapons are disallowed because of the potential for excessive force blows and the fact that they require a chain/rope between the parts of the weapon creates a safety hazard. This includes flails, nunchucks and any other segmented weapon.

Staff weapons, such as the bo and quarterstaff are disallowed for several reasons.... First is the inherent speed of the weapon. It's just too fast to safely be used in our type of fighting. Secondly, they're not considered "knightly" weapons. They're more of a peasants armament. Thirdly, it is claimed that they would do little in real damage to the armored combatants that we are attempting to replicate.

[Prosperity]

what about cavalry? Too dangerous? Illegal? (cruelty to animals etc?)

[Mass_SkinsFan]

what about cavalry? Too dangerous? Illegal? (cruelty to animals etc?)

We have separate horse-related events that are more geared towards the sort of training that a squire or knight would be doing during peace time. There are now rules for jousting as well (which as a horse owner I find disgusting).

As for actual mounted cavalry in battle, the safety issue would be WAY, WAY too much to deal with. Horse deaths in medieval combat were excessive. Add to that the fact that the horse was as much a weapon as anything the rider carried in his hands, and you have a totally untenable situation for actual battlefield combat. Especially when you're talking about the level of combat we are involved in.

We do have cavalry though... We're called the Great Northern Army. The don't walk or march into battle. We RUN. In 40 lbs of armor, and carrying 10 lbs. of weapons/shields at times. We employ a run and gun style of combat tactics taken largely from a combination of the maneuver tactics from roman cavalry, Erwin Rommell and several other historic sources. Gee, ever think our commanders have a background in military history and tactics? We hit and run. We don't get bogged down. We blow through our enemies and create internal flanks to fight on.

As one of our official mottos indicates.....

"Moreover, in the whole force there could be found No serf, no freedman, none of ignoble birth, none weak with old age. All were nobles, all vigorous with the strength of complete manhood, fit for all manner of battle, and so swift on foot that they despised the fleetness of calvary."

[Chief skin]

Too weird for me

[Mass_SkinsFan]

I figured it was about time to update folks on this deal....

Training has slowed down. The combination of heat and wet weather the last couple weeks has really slowed my progress doing the physical training for the tournament. I've been making the indoor practices at least once a week, but the running and other cardio work has been very sporadic, at best.

On a more positive note, Bridget and I are spending tomorrow (Sat. 6/3) at an event in the Barony Beyond the Mountain (Connecticut) together. She had mentioned to me a couple weeks ago that she'd never watched a tournament and really didn't understand how they work. I suggested that this event would be a good chance for me to sit with her and explain how things worked, since I'm not fighting at this event. It also ends up that a friend of ours in the local group is getting a major award during Their Majesty's Court at the event as well.

[wskin44]

Cool. That sounds like a good time for you both.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Good day Mi'Lords and Ladies,

I was asked earlier today to update this thread, since it's been like six weeks in between posts in here.

Things are moving slowly, but they are moving. Bridget and I have most of our entourage in place now. She has chosen three ladies to assist her the day of the tournament. I have two men-at-arms to assist me. We're still looking for a herald (crier) for the day, but we have a couple people in mind. We just haven't come to a final decision on who our first and second choices are yet. Hopefully that will be dealt with in the next three weeks before I leave for Pennsic XXXV, in Slippery Rock, PA. The clothing for the day has been decided. Both Bridget and I have vert and argent (green & white) as the main colors of our heraldry so we've decided to go with that color scheme throughout the day. Even though she also has black and yellow in her heraldry. Most of the basic details regarding our accomidations for the day have been worked out as well.

Unfortunately we still don't have a location or specific date for the event yet. We know it will be either the last Saturday in October or the first Saturday in November. Their Majesties at the time of the tournament are from Rhode Island, so we're hoping Crown Tourney will be relatively close to the center of the East Kingdom, and thus a realistic day trip for us.

Training is going alright. I'm getting in 3-5 hours of pell work a week (imagine shadow boxing/heavy bag work with a sword). I'm making as many of the practices as possible, but local weekend events have limited the number of Sunday practices we've had recently and our practice has become largely populated with new fighters just getting into armor which makes finding a good fight a little tough at times. I've taken to hanging around another 45 minutes after the scheduled practice to work with a couple of our better fighters when we're not trying to teach the newbies. Physical training has been nearly non-existant. It's either 90+ degrees or pouring rain up here this year. Neither are terribly conducive to outdoor workouts, which are most of what I need to do.

We have announced my intention to fight for Bridget publicly now. The reaction from the general populace and the fighting community has been mixed. Everything from "GREAT. Good Luck. I hope you win the whole thing." to "Are you NUTS!!! You're gonna get KILLED!!!" We'll see who's right this fall.

[Xameil]

Good day Mi'Lords and Ladies,

I was asked earlier today to update this thread, since it's been like six weeks in between posts in here.

Things are moving slowly, but they are moving. Bridget and I have most of our entourage in place now. She has chosen three ladies to assist her the day of the tournament. I have two men-at-arms to assist me. We're still looking for a herald (crier) for the day, but we have a couple people in mind. We just haven't come to a final decision on who our first and second choices are yet. Hopefully that will be dealt with in the next three weeks before I leave for Pennsic XXXV, in Slippery Rock, PA. The clothing for the day has been decided. Both Bridget and I have vert and argent (green & white) as the main colors of our heraldry so we've decided to go with that color scheme throughout the day. Even though she also has black and yellow in her heraldry. Most of the basic details regarding our accomidations for the day have been worked out as well.

Unfortunately we still don't have a location or specific date for the event yet. We know it will be either the last Saturday in October or the first Saturday in November. Their Majesties at the time of the tournament are from Rhode Island, so we're hoping Crown Tourney will be relatively close to the center of the East Kingdom, and thus a realistic day trip for us.

Training is going alright. I'm getting in 3-5 hours of pell work a week (imagine shadow boxing/heavy bag work with a sword). I'm making as many of the practices as possible, but local weekend events have limited the number of Sunday practices we've had recently and our practice has become largely populated with new fighters just getting into armor which makes finding a good fight a little tough at times. I've taken to hanging around another 45 minutes after the scheduled practice to work with a couple of our better fighters when we're not trying to teach the newbies. Physical training has been nearly non-existant. It's either 90+ degrees or pouring rain up here this year. Neither are terribly conducive to outdoor workouts, which are most of what I need to do.

We have announced my intention to fight for Bridget publicly now. The reaction from the general populace and the fighting community has been mixed. Everything from "GREAT. Good Luck. I hope you win the whole thing." to "Are you NUTS!!! You're gonna get KILLED!!!" We'll see who's right this fall.

Thanks for the update.

Hopefully all the work will pay off in the end.

[The Sisko]

I have to admit that I find this sort of re-enactment type of thing a little..."different" shall we say. However, I'm amazed and encouraged to see that you do indeed have a heart MSF. What you're doing is indeed kind, gentlemanly and dare I say it, even knightly.

Best of luck. It sounds like you're gonna need it to not get injured. I hope the two of you have a great time.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

I have to admit that I find this sort of re-enactment type of thing a little..."different" shall we say.

That's fine. Not everybody sees the interest in this sort of thing. Some of us do and many others wonder why grown adults run around playing "make-believe" or "dress up on weekends. That's when I politely explain to them that I can't understand how they spend gobs of cash to hit a little white ball only to chase it down the fairway. They generally get the point.

However, I'm amazed and encouraged to see that you do indeed have a heart MSF. What you're doing is indeed kind, gentlemanly and dare I say it, even knightly.

I have a heart. I don't use it very often, but the whole nature of the SCA brings out the best in a lot of people. Including myself. Thanks for the kind words. Unfortunately I'll never hold the title of "Knight" in our society. It's too much about your ability to swing a stick and not enough about being chivalrous for my tastes.

Best of luck. It sounds like you're gonna need it to not get injured. I hope the two of you have a great time.

Thank you again. I just need to get used to the different level of power that many fighters go to when fighting in a tournament compared to on the battlefield. It's not too bad if you're prepared for it. If you're not ready to give and take a higher caliber of shot though, tournament fighting can be frustrating. I know what to expect so it's not a big deal.

I'm sure we'll both have a great time. Win or lose.

[cadets08]

It can go both ways. If she does well, has fun, and/or doesn't get hurt, then your a nice guy for sure. If she gets hurt, has a bad time, etc. then you're an idiot. It's that simple. Not trying to be mean just offering a 16 year old perspective. Take it or leave it.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

It can go both ways. If she does well, has fun, and/or doesn't get hurt, then your a nice guy for sure. If she gets hurt, has a bad time, etc. then you're an idiot. It's that simple. Not trying to be mean just offering a 16 year old perspective. Take it or leave it.

She won't get hurt. I'm the one who's going to be fighting, not her. Her job is basically to show up, be supportive while I'm fighting and conciliatory when I eventually get knocked out (hopefully only metaphorically) of the tournament, and to interact with the consorts of the other people I fight. The only time she'd really get involved in the tournament itself would be if I make it to the semi-finals at which point she'd be required to stand with the Queen and the consorts of the other semi-finalists while the last four of us duke it out. Her chances of getting hurt doing that are pretty small.

Thanks for the input though.